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서기수 선수의 안건만으로 너무 빠른 판결이 난 것에 유감 이였습니다. 협의회 결정에 대해서는 이의제기를 할 수 없었습니다.
The fact that this was judged so quickly by Tricker's views is regretful. We could not appeal the decision done by the comittee.
This makes me remember Mafia game, lolz.
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On August 05 2011 02:56 primarch359 wrote:
Anyone else now feel bad about blaming EG for the puma team change?
Unfortunately, even in the face of overwhelming evidence, haters gonna hate could never be more true, it really is amazing how almost all the people who are like "Well, this is clearly only one side, I think what Coach Lee did was not that bad etc." were the same people who instantly made their mind up during the EG/Puma situation. The hypocrisy on this forum can be overwhelming sometimes, luckily there are enough intelligent, well reasoned people to balance things out.
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On August 05 2011 02:50 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 02:46 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:30 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:27 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:25 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:20 Talin wrote:On August 05 2011 02:16 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:14 Talin wrote:On August 05 2011 02:11 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:07 FairForever wrote:[quote] I don't want to get into an argument about this, but it does call into question a lot of things that we believed to be true from Mr. Lee, who knows if he was being deceitful... Anyway back on topic, hope someone will translate the article  Mr. Lee went to the press before consulting with EG about Puma . Doesn't exactly lend to the idea of Mr. Lee being forthcoming and honest. Eh, he went to the press because EG didn't consult with him about that (or anything else). And they've had plenty of time to do so if they ever really wanted to. Also, in this case Lee (and TSL) got played again, so I'm not entirely sure why he's the bad guy. -_- They got played because they withheld wages from their players (as per sc2con)... okay there, Mr. Lee is definitely the victim right? The players that didn't show up for training and didn't work for their wages, and now after they've left the team they initiated a process to fuck TSL up even more. Yeah, I'd say he's clearly the victim. If FD and Tester had even a little bit of honor and dignity they would just have let it go once they left TSL. But alas... You have to be joking me. FD and Tester earned the money by representing TSL in the GSL and GSTL, and TSL turns around and doesn't pay them for allegedly "not practicing enough". Even if it is true, that does not give TSL the right to withhold wages. I'm not saying that what FD and Tester did was ethically pure. They probably should've done a better job practicing. But what TSL did was clearly in the wrong, both legally and ethically. You sign a contract to come to work. You don't come to work I don't pay you. How is that not simple enough for you to understand? Except they were at work. They participated in the GSL and GSTL which is the crux of the services. TSL isn't paying them to practice, TSL is paying them because TSL hopes to win the GSTL and have one of their stars win the GSL. While their performances and efforts may have been lackluster, it doesn't change the fact that they fulfilled their duties from a legal standpoint (from an ethical one, maybe not). Considering I actually study quite a bit of business law, I'm pretty sure I have a better understanding. There may be differences with Korean and Canadian/American Law but I'm pretty sure the crux of the arguments still hold. I would say what I study lends more importance to the discussion as it's more logical- software engineering. TSL was supposed to pay them not only for tournaments but practice too. Now maybe if they were winning GSTL and GSL left and right not coming to practice 35/45 days wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately they didn't win and didn't come to practice. Understandably coach Lee was angry they were losing, not practicing enough and getting paid, so he decided to enforce the part of the contract that included practice. Contracts can be interpreted differently and can mean different things to different people. In this case the players violated the contract and weren't paid. You are dead wrong here. "Now maybe if they were winning GSTL and GSL... wouldn't be a problem". That goes contrary to the point. This isn't a results-based discussion. FD and Trickster should be treated the same throughout regardless of whether they won GSL or fell into Code B, unless the "contract" stipulated incentives or had clauses to protect against this (and seeing how there seems to be no written contract, this doesn't hold). "Decided to enforce the part of the contract that included practice" You are just making up bs now, what part of the contract stipulated practice time? You're trying to support a position that has no merit unless a written contract allowed for it. Which in this case isn't true.
Dude... what kind of white knight business law are you studying... you're going to make a terrible businessman if you think like that. People bend and break contracts ALL the time, and there are middle grounds, all it depends is how good your lawyers are. You keep going by the book and see how long you last.
Whether Lee broke the contract or not this is whats happened: they didn't come to practice and they didn't get paid. If the contract is AMBIGUOUS on practice schedules, there is an argument for both sides. Law is not always fair, law is just law. One lesson for you to learn in your long, hard journey ahead.
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I think it has become rather evident That Mr. Lee is not fit for managing a team. He blew up the whole Puma situation and now this comes out... can't see TSL lasting much longer.
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On August 05 2011 03:06 Kipsate wrote:
Looks like we are getting closer to SC2 KeSpa with every incident O.o.
I wouldn't go there yet but this is just messed up situation that didnt have to blow up in public.
I say Boxer had a foresight not to get involved yet.
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On August 05 2011 03:09 Yemack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 03:06 Kipsate wrote:
Looks like we are getting closer to SC2 KeSpa with every incident O.o. I wouldn't go there yet but this is just messed up situation that didnt have to blow up in public. I say Boxer had a foresight not to get involved yet.
Someone said on Reddit that SlayerS functions as a partner to this association and is involved in some way, shape, or form. Would love it if someone confirmed it for me.
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
On August 05 2011 03:10 namedplayer wrote:
theres a new post written by ST coach who is currently the leader of SC2con.
Wait so this whole SC2con situation is being overseen by the new coach of the players in question lol? Nice, Coach Lee's original comments about the way it was handled make a bit more sense to me now.
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Lol the Startale coach is the leader of the organisation, so that's really nothing special that they kicked out TSL if you think about it =D I mean guess where FD and Trickster went ^_^
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The SC2con head is the ST coach?
Uhh..
Yeah, there's no way that article is to be trusted. Same goes with the SC2con's 'ruling'. In fact, not even Coach Lee's word is to be trusted. We need an impartial account.
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On August 05 2011 03:07 tl55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 02:50 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:46 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:30 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:27 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:25 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:20 Talin wrote:On August 05 2011 02:16 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:14 Talin wrote:On August 05 2011 02:11 tl55555 wrote:
[quote]
Mr. Lee went to the press before consulting with EG about Puma . Doesn't exactly lend to the idea of Mr. Lee being forthcoming and honest. Eh, he went to the press because EG didn't consult with him about that (or anything else). And they've had plenty of time to do so if they ever really wanted to. Also, in this case Lee (and TSL) got played again, so I'm not entirely sure why he's the bad guy. -_- They got played because they withheld wages from their players (as per sc2con)... okay there, Mr. Lee is definitely the victim right? The players that didn't show up for training and didn't work for their wages, and now after they've left the team they initiated a process to fuck TSL up even more. Yeah, I'd say he's clearly the victim. If FD and Tester had even a little bit of honor and dignity they would just have let it go once they left TSL. But alas... You have to be joking me. FD and Tester earned the money by representing TSL in the GSL and GSTL, and TSL turns around and doesn't pay them for allegedly "not practicing enough". Even if it is true, that does not give TSL the right to withhold wages. I'm not saying that what FD and Tester did was ethically pure. They probably should've done a better job practicing. But what TSL did was clearly in the wrong, both legally and ethically. You sign a contract to come to work. You don't come to work I don't pay you. How is that not simple enough for you to understand? Except they were at work. They participated in the GSL and GSTL which is the crux of the services. TSL isn't paying them to practice, TSL is paying them because TSL hopes to win the GSTL and have one of their stars win the GSL. While their performances and efforts may have been lackluster, it doesn't change the fact that they fulfilled their duties from a legal standpoint (from an ethical one, maybe not). Considering I actually study quite a bit of business law, I'm pretty sure I have a better understanding. There may be differences with Korean and Canadian/American Law but I'm pretty sure the crux of the arguments still hold. I would say what I study lends more importance to the discussion as it's more logical- software engineering. TSL was supposed to pay them not only for tournaments but practice too. Now maybe if they were winning GSTL and GSL left and right not coming to practice 35/45 days wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately they didn't win and didn't come to practice. Understandably coach Lee was angry they were losing, not practicing enough and getting paid, so he decided to enforce the part of the contract that included practice. Contracts can be interpreted differently and can mean different things to different people. In this case the players violated the contract and weren't paid. You are dead wrong here. "Now maybe if they were winning GSTL and GSL... wouldn't be a problem". That goes contrary to the point. This isn't a results-based discussion. FD and Trickster should be treated the same throughout regardless of whether they won GSL or fell into Code B, unless the "contract" stipulated incentives or had clauses to protect against this (and seeing how there seems to be no written contract, this doesn't hold). "Decided to enforce the part of the contract that included practice" You are just making up bs now, what part of the contract stipulated practice time? You're trying to support a position that has no merit unless a written contract allowed for it. Which in this case isn't true. Dude... what kind of white knight business law are you studying... you're going to make a terrible businessman if you think like that. People bend and break contracts ALL the time, and there are middle grounds, all it depends is how good your lawyers are. You keep going by the book and see how long you last. Whether Lee broke the contract or not this is whats happened: they didn't come to practice and they didn't get paid. If the contract is AMBIGUOUS on practice schedules, there is an argument for both sides. Law is not always fair, law is just law. One lesson for you to learn in your long, hard journey ahead.
So at least we agree now that what Lee did was wrong and unethical? I personally don't care what you think about business law and whether you feel it means very little. The fact is what Lee did was wrong.
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Hm maybe it's time for my long overdue rant post on why SC2Con is useless and in fact detrimental to the Korean scene.
Either way this is all a very very silly.
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Not to jump to conclusions, but the most interesting topic of debate now should be where are all those talented TSL players gonna go now. Can't imagine the team staying intact after so much stuff
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
Didn't see that one coming...
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I think a lot of people need to take a step back and look at the EG acquisition of Puma now. More information comes out about TSL dealings. Hmmmm.
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I am certainly not a fan of Coach Lee but the players association just seems like a load of bull. This seems more like a publicity stunt than anything else against TSL. Mr. Lee was wrong to do what he did and he does owe the players the promised money unless they didn't fulfill their promised duties.
Mr Lee just seems like one of those super naive guys that knows how to talk the talk but just can't walk the walk. He constantly seems to have trouble with the nuts and bolts of the business and falling back on hurt feelings, broken promises, and BFF necklaces.
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On August 05 2011 03:07 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 02:56 primarch359 wrote:
Anyone else now feel bad about blaming EG for the puma team change? Unfortunately, even in the face of overwhelming evidence, haters gonna hate could never be more true, it really is amazing how almost all the people who are like "Well, this is clearly only one side, I think what Coach Lee did was not that bad etc." were the same people who instantly made their mind up during the EG/Puma situation. The hypocrisy on this forum can be overwhelming sometimes, luckily there are enough intelligent, well reasoned people to balance things out.
While I agree, these logical people need to post more! 90% of the posts in these drama threads are from the haters who can only see one side of the story and will part the Red Sea to justify their view.
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On August 05 2011 03:17 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Hm maybe it's time for my long overdue rant post on why SC2Con is useless and in fact detrimental to the Korean scene.
Either way this is all a very very silly.
Looking forward to that rant ^_^
And I agree all of this is very silly.
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On August 05 2011 03:07 tl55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 02:50 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:46 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:30 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:27 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:25 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:20 Talin wrote:On August 05 2011 02:16 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:14 Talin wrote:On August 05 2011 02:11 tl55555 wrote:
[quote]
Mr. Lee went to the press before consulting with EG about Puma . Doesn't exactly lend to the idea of Mr. Lee being forthcoming and honest. Eh, he went to the press because EG didn't consult with him about that (or anything else). And they've had plenty of time to do so if they ever really wanted to. Also, in this case Lee (and TSL) got played again, so I'm not entirely sure why he's the bad guy. -_- They got played because they withheld wages from their players (as per sc2con)... okay there, Mr. Lee is definitely the victim right? The players that didn't show up for training and didn't work for their wages, and now after they've left the team they initiated a process to fuck TSL up even more. Yeah, I'd say he's clearly the victim. If FD and Tester had even a little bit of honor and dignity they would just have let it go once they left TSL. But alas... You have to be joking me. FD and Tester earned the money by representing TSL in the GSL and GSTL, and TSL turns around and doesn't pay them for allegedly "not practicing enough". Even if it is true, that does not give TSL the right to withhold wages. I'm not saying that what FD and Tester did was ethically pure. They probably should've done a better job practicing. But what TSL did was clearly in the wrong, both legally and ethically. You sign a contract to come to work. You don't come to work I don't pay you. How is that not simple enough for you to understand? Except they were at work. They participated in the GSL and GSTL which is the crux of the services. TSL isn't paying them to practice, TSL is paying them because TSL hopes to win the GSTL and have one of their stars win the GSL. While their performances and efforts may have been lackluster, it doesn't change the fact that they fulfilled their duties from a legal standpoint (from an ethical one, maybe not). Considering I actually study quite a bit of business law, I'm pretty sure I have a better understanding. There may be differences with Korean and Canadian/American Law but I'm pretty sure the crux of the arguments still hold. I would say what I study lends more importance to the discussion as it's more logical- software engineering. TSL was supposed to pay them not only for tournaments but practice too. Now maybe if they were winning GSTL and GSL left and right not coming to practice 35/45 days wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately they didn't win and didn't come to practice. Understandably coach Lee was angry they were losing, not practicing enough and getting paid, so he decided to enforce the part of the contract that included practice. Contracts can be interpreted differently and can mean different things to different people. In this case the players violated the contract and weren't paid. You are dead wrong here. "Now maybe if they were winning GSTL and GSL... wouldn't be a problem". That goes contrary to the point. This isn't a results-based discussion. FD and Trickster should be treated the same throughout regardless of whether they won GSL or fell into Code B, unless the "contract" stipulated incentives or had clauses to protect against this (and seeing how there seems to be no written contract, this doesn't hold). "Decided to enforce the part of the contract that included practice" You are just making up bs now, what part of the contract stipulated practice time? You're trying to support a position that has no merit unless a written contract allowed for it. Which in this case isn't true. Dude... what kind of white knight business law are you studying... you're going to make a terrible businessman if you think like that. People bend and break contracts ALL the time, and there are middle grounds, all it depends is how good your lawyers are. You keep going by the book and see how long you last. Whether Lee broke the contract or not this is whats happened: they didn't come to practice and they didn't get paid. If the contract is AMBIGUOUS on practice schedules, there is an argument for both sides. Law is not always fair, law is just law. One lesson for you to learn in your long, hard journey ahead.
Here's what ISN'T ambiguous. You pay the people on your payroll, whether you want to or not, as long as they are on your payroll. I don't know how many of these posters who are crying out that FD and T didn't practice enough would be totally ok with not receiving a paycheck one day because their work wasn't up to par. Maybe I'm the only one who would be outraged though.
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On August 05 2011 03:16 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 03:07 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:50 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:46 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:30 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:27 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:25 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:20 Talin wrote:On August 05 2011 02:16 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:14 Talin wrote:
[quote]
Eh, he went to the press because EG didn't consult with him about that (or anything else). And they've had plenty of time to do so if they ever really wanted to.
Also, in this case Lee (and TSL) got played again, so I'm not entirely sure why he's the bad guy. -_- They got played because they withheld wages from their players (as per sc2con)... okay there, Mr. Lee is definitely the victim right? The players that didn't show up for training and didn't work for their wages, and now after they've left the team they initiated a process to fuck TSL up even more. Yeah, I'd say he's clearly the victim. If FD and Tester had even a little bit of honor and dignity they would just have let it go once they left TSL. But alas... You have to be joking me. FD and Tester earned the money by representing TSL in the GSL and GSTL, and TSL turns around and doesn't pay them for allegedly "not practicing enough". Even if it is true, that does not give TSL the right to withhold wages. I'm not saying that what FD and Tester did was ethically pure. They probably should've done a better job practicing. But what TSL did was clearly in the wrong, both legally and ethically. You sign a contract to come to work. You don't come to work I don't pay you. How is that not simple enough for you to understand? Except they were at work. They participated in the GSL and GSTL which is the crux of the services. TSL isn't paying them to practice, TSL is paying them because TSL hopes to win the GSTL and have one of their stars win the GSL. While their performances and efforts may have been lackluster, it doesn't change the fact that they fulfilled their duties from a legal standpoint (from an ethical one, maybe not). Considering I actually study quite a bit of business law, I'm pretty sure I have a better understanding. There may be differences with Korean and Canadian/American Law but I'm pretty sure the crux of the arguments still hold. I would say what I study lends more importance to the discussion as it's more logical- software engineering. TSL was supposed to pay them not only for tournaments but practice too. Now maybe if they were winning GSTL and GSL left and right not coming to practice 35/45 days wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately they didn't win and didn't come to practice. Understandably coach Lee was angry they were losing, not practicing enough and getting paid, so he decided to enforce the part of the contract that included practice. Contracts can be interpreted differently and can mean different things to different people. In this case the players violated the contract and weren't paid. You are dead wrong here. "Now maybe if they were winning GSTL and GSL... wouldn't be a problem". That goes contrary to the point. This isn't a results-based discussion. FD and Trickster should be treated the same throughout regardless of whether they won GSL or fell into Code B, unless the "contract" stipulated incentives or had clauses to protect against this (and seeing how there seems to be no written contract, this doesn't hold). "Decided to enforce the part of the contract that included practice" You are just making up bs now, what part of the contract stipulated practice time? You're trying to support a position that has no merit unless a written contract allowed for it. Which in this case isn't true. Dude... what kind of white knight business law are you studying... you're going to make a terrible businessman if you think like that. People bend and break contracts ALL the time, and there are middle grounds, all it depends is how good your lawyers are. You keep going by the book and see how long you last. Whether Lee broke the contract or not this is whats happened: they didn't come to practice and they didn't get paid. If the contract is AMBIGUOUS on practice schedules, there is an argument for both sides. Law is not always fair, law is just law. One lesson for you to learn in your long, hard journey ahead. So at least we agree now that what Lee did was wrong and unethical? I personally don't care what you think about business law and whether you feel it means very little. The fact is what Lee did was wrong.
Not anymore wrong and unethical than what FruitDealer and Trickster did, which was violate their contract by not practicing. Don't flaunt your business law when you have no idea wtf is going on, just makes you look like a pompous arrogant child.
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EPT
