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On August 05 2011 03:42 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 03:28 Plansix wrote:
So let me get this straight:
- The coach, a full grown adult, started a SC2 team made up of players, some of that are under the age of 18. None of them were paid and he counted on their “passion” for the game to binding “agreement” holding the team together.
- When some of them were successful, he made money off of their interviews and advertisements. He offered them wages, once again, with no contract or written agreement.
- When those players did not perform as well, he withheld their wages, but continued to use their interviews and likeness in advertisements.
I don't know a lot about the Coach Lee and his past teams, but on paper this looks like a legal nightmare. At best is poor management and at worst it could be considered child labor, unfair business practices and possibly fraud. Most states(I understand this is not in the US) bar employers from withhold wages, employing children without a contract and using someone’s likeness(aka, picture in an add) without their express(written ) consent.
Players on teams are employees, not matter what people say. If Coach Lee was making money, no matter how much, off of their effort, he should have paid them. If the amount was so small that it could only support the team house, then he should have had contracts with them and keep good records to show this. This is called good business practices and helps with these pesky things call lawsuits.
Also, I am not a fan of anyone under the age of 18 working for someone without a contract. I know not everyone on TSL was, but most of the players are very young. I don't know what is standard in Korea, but the lack of a contract really opens the door for abuse and fraud. Contracts are meant to protect both sides and lay out exactly what both sides are responsible for. When you don't have a contract, situations like this crop up, where both sides have differing ideas of what is expected of them. If one side doesn't want a contract, they are basicly saying "I don't want to be responsable for anything", no matter how they spin it.
I am glad someone is taking TSL to task for not paying their players. If you have a problem with an employee, warn or fire them. Don't withhold their pay and expect them to work. O_O you should get you facts straight. Only FD and Trickster got their wages withheld, because they didn;t want to practice. Both of them are in their 20s. As for the minors they are their on parental consent and free will. You should read up on your facts a bit more before you toss around the old Child Labor shinnanigans. No play no pay. Sounds fair enough. Go Lee.
More like, no play, you get warned, then fucking fired if you don't improve your behavior. Not "no play, no pay." It surprises me how many people don't seem to understand this on this forum.
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On August 05 2011 03:35 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 03:27 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 03:16 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 03:07 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:50 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:46 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:30 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:27 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:25 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:20 Talin wrote:
[quote]
The players that didn't show up for training and didn't work for their wages, and now after they've left the team they initiated a process to fuck TSL up even more.
Yeah, I'd say he's clearly the victim.
If FD and Tester had even a little bit of honor and dignity they would just have let it go once they left TSL. But alas... You have to be joking me. FD and Tester earned the money by representing TSL in the GSL and GSTL, and TSL turns around and doesn't pay them for allegedly "not practicing enough". Even if it is true, that does not give TSL the right to withhold wages. I'm not saying that what FD and Tester did was ethically pure. They probably should've done a better job practicing. But what TSL did was clearly in the wrong, both legally and ethically. You sign a contract to come to work. You don't come to work I don't pay you. How is that not simple enough for you to understand? Except they were at work. They participated in the GSL and GSTL which is the crux of the services. TSL isn't paying them to practice, TSL is paying them because TSL hopes to win the GSTL and have one of their stars win the GSL. While their performances and efforts may have been lackluster, it doesn't change the fact that they fulfilled their duties from a legal standpoint (from an ethical one, maybe not). Considering I actually study quite a bit of business law, I'm pretty sure I have a better understanding. There may be differences with Korean and Canadian/American Law but I'm pretty sure the crux of the arguments still hold. I would say what I study lends more importance to the discussion as it's more logical- software engineering. TSL was supposed to pay them not only for tournaments but practice too. Now maybe if they were winning GSTL and GSL left and right not coming to practice 35/45 days wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately they didn't win and didn't come to practice. Understandably coach Lee was angry they were losing, not practicing enough and getting paid, so he decided to enforce the part of the contract that included practice. Contracts can be interpreted differently and can mean different things to different people. In this case the players violated the contract and weren't paid. You are dead wrong here. "Now maybe if they were winning GSTL and GSL... wouldn't be a problem". That goes contrary to the point. This isn't a results-based discussion. FD and Trickster should be treated the same throughout regardless of whether they won GSL or fell into Code B, unless the "contract" stipulated incentives or had clauses to protect against this (and seeing how there seems to be no written contract, this doesn't hold). "Decided to enforce the part of the contract that included practice" You are just making up bs now, what part of the contract stipulated practice time? You're trying to support a position that has no merit unless a written contract allowed for it. Which in this case isn't true. Dude... what kind of white knight business law are you studying... you're going to make a terrible businessman if you think like that. People bend and break contracts ALL the time, and there are middle grounds, all it depends is how good your lawyers are. You keep going by the book and see how long you last. Whether Lee broke the contract or not this is whats happened: they didn't come to practice and they didn't get paid. If the contract is AMBIGUOUS on practice schedules, there is an argument for both sides. Law is not always fair, law is just law. One lesson for you to learn in your long, hard journey ahead. So at least we agree now that what Lee did was wrong and unethical? I personally don't care what you think about business law and whether you feel it means very little. The fact is what Lee did was wrong. Not anymore wrong and unethical than what FruitDealer and Trickster did, which was violate their contract by not practicing. Don't flaunt your business law when you have no idea wtf is going on, just makes you look like a pompous arrogant child. Read above. I never said that I agree with what FD and Trickster did. But that's not the point. While FD and Trickster may have been morally wrong in not practicing hard to really fully commit to their duties, TSL was legally wrong in refusing to pay them. I'm not sure how it's comparable. EDIT: I forgot to mention again, you keep saying they violated their contract. Again, stop spewing bullshit out of your mouth.
To clear up your confusion, TSL was not legally wrong if the contract was ambiguous, that's how its comparable.
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On August 05 2011 03:27 tl55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 03:16 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 03:07 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:50 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:46 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:30 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:27 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:25 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:20 Talin wrote:On August 05 2011 02:16 FairForever wrote:
[quote]
They got played because they withheld wages from their players (as per sc2con)... okay there, Mr. Lee is definitely the victim right? The players that didn't show up for training and didn't work for their wages, and now after they've left the team they initiated a process to fuck TSL up even more. Yeah, I'd say he's clearly the victim. If FD and Tester had even a little bit of honor and dignity they would just have let it go once they left TSL. But alas... You have to be joking me. FD and Tester earned the money by representing TSL in the GSL and GSTL, and TSL turns around and doesn't pay them for allegedly "not practicing enough". Even if it is true, that does not give TSL the right to withhold wages. I'm not saying that what FD and Tester did was ethically pure. They probably should've done a better job practicing. But what TSL did was clearly in the wrong, both legally and ethically. You sign a contract to come to work. You don't come to work I don't pay you. How is that not simple enough for you to understand? Except they were at work. They participated in the GSL and GSTL which is the crux of the services. TSL isn't paying them to practice, TSL is paying them because TSL hopes to win the GSTL and have one of their stars win the GSL. While their performances and efforts may have been lackluster, it doesn't change the fact that they fulfilled their duties from a legal standpoint (from an ethical one, maybe not). Considering I actually study quite a bit of business law, I'm pretty sure I have a better understanding. There may be differences with Korean and Canadian/American Law but I'm pretty sure the crux of the arguments still hold. I would say what I study lends more importance to the discussion as it's more logical- software engineering. TSL was supposed to pay them not only for tournaments but practice too. Now maybe if they were winning GSTL and GSL left and right not coming to practice 35/45 days wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately they didn't win and didn't come to practice. Understandably coach Lee was angry they were losing, not practicing enough and getting paid, so he decided to enforce the part of the contract that included practice. Contracts can be interpreted differently and can mean different things to different people. In this case the players violated the contract and weren't paid. You are dead wrong here. "Now maybe if they were winning GSTL and GSL... wouldn't be a problem". That goes contrary to the point. This isn't a results-based discussion. FD and Trickster should be treated the same throughout regardless of whether they won GSL or fell into Code B, unless the "contract" stipulated incentives or had clauses to protect against this (and seeing how there seems to be no written contract, this doesn't hold). "Decided to enforce the part of the contract that included practice" You are just making up bs now, what part of the contract stipulated practice time? You're trying to support a position that has no merit unless a written contract allowed for it. Which in this case isn't true. Dude... what kind of white knight business law are you studying... you're going to make a terrible businessman if you think like that. People bend and break contracts ALL the time, and there are middle grounds, all it depends is how good your lawyers are. You keep going by the book and see how long you last. Whether Lee broke the contract or not this is whats happened: they didn't come to practice and they didn't get paid. If the contract is AMBIGUOUS on practice schedules, there is an argument for both sides. Law is not always fair, law is just law. One lesson for you to learn in your long, hard journey ahead. So at least we agree now that what Lee did was wrong and unethical? I personally don't care what you think about business law and whether you feel it means very little. The fact is what Lee did was wrong. Not anymore wrong and unethical than what FruitDealer and Trickster did, which was violate their contract by not practicing. Don't flaunt your business law when you have no idea wtf is going on, just makes you look like a pompous arrogant child.
Can't hear you from up on your high horse
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On August 05 2011 03:41 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 03:39 farnham wrote:http://www.playxp.com/sc2/bbs/view.php?article_id=3254338&page=6startale coach says - it was a contractual condition from the start for fruit dealer and trickster to have free practise hours - mr. lee started as a financial manager but viewed himself as a head coach very soon - mr. lee got the payment from the sponsors but lied that he did not - mr. lee said that he had so much money to spend on running the team. he did not enclose any details until recently. he says for example that tsl used 5 million won for food and 1 million won for convenience stores. tsl had about 8 to 9 players in the house back then. startale in comparison paid about 2,5 million won for food for 15 players and they were fine - mr. lee showed up very seldomly in the team house (once or twice in two month) every player had to manage his own schedule and trickster had to work as a secretary for mr. lee Thank you for this! Though it's always been known that TSL had the best food out of all the progaming houses.  you could eat out everyday in korea for 500 000 won per person per person
why would they even have a kitchen in the house and use it.
its total bullshit if you ask me.
people also should know that mr. lee suddenly had a pc bang soon after getting the tsl sponsorship down. he also used fd and tricksters photos to promote his pc bang.
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On August 05 2011 03:42 GinDo wrote:
No play no pay. Sounds fair enough. Go Lee.
No play, get fired, no pay. Sounds about right. Go logic.
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On August 05 2011 03:39 farnham wrote:http://www.playxp.com/sc2/bbs/view.php?article_id=3254338&page=6startale coach says - it was a contractual condition from the start for fruit dealer and trickster to have free practise hours - mr. lee started as a financial manager but viewed himself as a head coach very soon - mr. lee got the payment from the sponsors but lied that he did not - mr. lee said that he had so much money to spend on running the team. he did not enclose any details until recently. he says for example that tsl used 5 million won for food and 1 million won for convenience stores. tsl had about 8 to 9 players in the house back then. startale in comparison paid about 2,5 million won for food for 15 players and they were fine - mr. lee showed up very seldomly in the team house (once or twice in two month) every player had to manage his own schedule and trickster had to work as a secretary for mr. lee
This sounds like shadyness to me. No contracts, no disclosure, a bunch of young kids work and being provided with food. Withholding wages once players stop winning and then claim they arn't working hard enough.
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On August 05 2011 03:42 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 03:28 Plansix wrote:
So let me get this straight:
- The coach, a full grown adult, started a SC2 team made up of players, some of that are under the age of 18. None of them were paid and he counted on their “passion” for the game to binding “agreement” holding the team together.
- When some of them were successful, he made money off of their interviews and advertisements. He offered them wages, once again, with no contract or written agreement.
- When those players did not perform as well, he withheld their wages, but continued to use their interviews and likeness in advertisements.
I don't know a lot about the Coach Lee and his past teams, but on paper this looks like a legal nightmare. At best is poor management and at worst it could be considered child labor, unfair business practices and possibly fraud. Most states(I understand this is not in the US) bar employers from withhold wages, employing children without a contract and using someone’s likeness(aka, picture in an add) without their express(written ) consent.
Players on teams are employees, not matter what people say. If Coach Lee was making money, no matter how much, off of their effort, he should have paid them. If the amount was so small that it could only support the team house, then he should have had contracts with them and keep good records to show this. This is called good business practices and helps with these pesky things call lawsuits.
Also, I am not a fan of anyone under the age of 18 working for someone without a contract. I know not everyone on TSL was, but most of the players are very young. I don't know what is standard in Korea, but the lack of a contract really opens the door for abuse and fraud. Contracts are meant to protect both sides and lay out exactly what both sides are responsible for. When you don't have a contract, situations like this crop up, where both sides have differing ideas of what is expected of them. If one side doesn't want a contract, they are basicly saying "I don't want to be responsable for anything", no matter how they spin it.
I am glad someone is taking TSL to task for not paying their players. If you have a problem with an employee, warn or fire them. Don't withhold their pay and expect them to work. O_O you should get you facts straight. Only FD and Trickster got their wages withheld, because they didn;t want to practice. Both of them are in their 20s. As for the minors they are their on parental consent and free will. You should read up on your facts a bit more before you toss around the old Child Labor shinnanigans. No play no pay. Sounds fair enough. Go Lee.
the verbal contracts of both players say that they are free to determine their practise hours by themselves.
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I don't like this; a lot of this is crap giving and rumors back and forth, but at the end of the day both parties are obviously at fault.
However, the responsibility and blame lies with Coach Lee. Why? Because he is the coach of the team and the senior adult. It is his job to worry about the team's finances and the team's players. How they perform, act, practice, etc. is something he's responsible for.
Think about if this was any other sport, if Coach A recruited star player B who then did absolutely nothing useful Coach A takes the blame for recruiting such a shitty player onto the team without certain agreements and expectations (legally binding) to what they expect from each other and what potentials of "punishment" and exit strategies from this agreement that each one possesses. Coach Lee is not acting like a professional from what I can gather. He is acting more like a father figure which is unacceptable because he is not allowed to make a scene if he is hurt and not allowed to punish through withholding payments and deception of facts.
The whole EG deal before hand had somewhat predicted this as Coach Lee went to the "press" before trying to further clarify with EG and Puma. I saw that whole deal as an attempt at a slap in the face and self victimization which once again are acts that are not professional.
TLDR: TSL is falling apart, and while the blame lies with many, it can be ultimately be placed on Coach Lee, because he is the Coach whether you think this is fair or not.
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On August 05 2011 03:44 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 03:42 GinDo wrote:On August 05 2011 03:28 Plansix wrote:
So let me get this straight:
- The coach, a full grown adult, started a SC2 team made up of players, some of that are under the age of 18. None of them were paid and he counted on their “passion” for the game to binding “agreement” holding the team together.
- When some of them were successful, he made money off of their interviews and advertisements. He offered them wages, once again, with no contract or written agreement.
- When those players did not perform as well, he withheld their wages, but continued to use their interviews and likeness in advertisements.
I don't know a lot about the Coach Lee and his past teams, but on paper this looks like a legal nightmare. At best is poor management and at worst it could be considered child labor, unfair business practices and possibly fraud. Most states(I understand this is not in the US) bar employers from withhold wages, employing children without a contract and using someone’s likeness(aka, picture in an add) without their express(written ) consent.
Players on teams are employees, not matter what people say. If Coach Lee was making money, no matter how much, off of their effort, he should have paid them. If the amount was so small that it could only support the team house, then he should have had contracts with them and keep good records to show this. This is called good business practices and helps with these pesky things call lawsuits.
Also, I am not a fan of anyone under the age of 18 working for someone without a contract. I know not everyone on TSL was, but most of the players are very young. I don't know what is standard in Korea, but the lack of a contract really opens the door for abuse and fraud. Contracts are meant to protect both sides and lay out exactly what both sides are responsible for. When you don't have a contract, situations like this crop up, where both sides have differing ideas of what is expected of them. If one side doesn't want a contract, they are basicly saying "I don't want to be responsable for anything", no matter how they spin it.
I am glad someone is taking TSL to task for not paying their players. If you have a problem with an employee, warn or fire them. Don't withhold their pay and expect them to work. O_O you should get you facts straight. Only FD and Trickster got their wages withheld, because they didn;t want to practice. Both of them are in their 20s. As for the minors they are their on parental consent and free will. You should read up on your facts a bit more before you toss around the old Child Labor shinnanigans. No play no pay. Sounds fair enough. Go Lee. More like, no play, you get warned, then fucking fired if you don't improve your behavior. Not "no play, no pay." It surprises me how many people don't seem to understand this on this forum.
LoL, na dude people get their wages garnished all the time! /sarcasm
I am also surprised, I suppose everyone would be cool with their wages being taken as well, from the sound of alot of people.
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On August 05 2011 03:39 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 03:02 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Just for the records, the SC2Con is a total farce and lacks any power doesn't do anything anyways. I would know.
TL;dr: This is all SC2Con waving their arms around to look powerful when they are not. That's not COMPLETELY true. If you impress at qualifiers at get offers from, say, TSL and Prime, Prime can say "And the players association says we're fair to our players and they don't say it about TSL", and have that advantage in negotiations. Just because it doesn't have binding authority doesn't mean it's rulings don't have weight. How much, I'm not sure. But some.
Yeah that's really stopped SlayerS form recruiting a bunch of cold faced killers right? Oh wait....
I'd really love if these con's got neutral parties to head them that actually do stuff for the players instead of just going over the rules before each GTSL match.....
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Seems like a fair decision, BUT...
Doesn't anyone else think it's a BIG conflict of interest for the SC2 Conference President, the one who is making the decision, to also be the manager of StarTale, the very team that FD and Trickster joined?
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On August 05 2011 03:45 tl55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 03:35 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 03:27 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 03:16 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 03:07 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:50 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:46 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:30 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:27 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:25 FairForever wrote:
[quote]
You have to be joking me. FD and Tester earned the money by representing TSL in the GSL and GSTL, and TSL turns around and doesn't pay them for allegedly "not practicing enough". Even if it is true, that does not give TSL the right to withhold wages.
I'm not saying that what FD and Tester did was ethically pure. They probably should've done a better job practicing. But what TSL did was clearly in the wrong, both legally and ethically. You sign a contract to come to work. You don't come to work I don't pay you. How is that not simple enough for you to understand? Except they were at work. They participated in the GSL and GSTL which is the crux of the services. TSL isn't paying them to practice, TSL is paying them because TSL hopes to win the GSTL and have one of their stars win the GSL. While their performances and efforts may have been lackluster, it doesn't change the fact that they fulfilled their duties from a legal standpoint (from an ethical one, maybe not). Considering I actually study quite a bit of business law, I'm pretty sure I have a better understanding. There may be differences with Korean and Canadian/American Law but I'm pretty sure the crux of the arguments still hold. I would say what I study lends more importance to the discussion as it's more logical- software engineering. TSL was supposed to pay them not only for tournaments but practice too. Now maybe if they were winning GSTL and GSL left and right not coming to practice 35/45 days wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately they didn't win and didn't come to practice. Understandably coach Lee was angry they were losing, not practicing enough and getting paid, so he decided to enforce the part of the contract that included practice. Contracts can be interpreted differently and can mean different things to different people. In this case the players violated the contract and weren't paid. You are dead wrong here. "Now maybe if they were winning GSTL and GSL... wouldn't be a problem". That goes contrary to the point. This isn't a results-based discussion. FD and Trickster should be treated the same throughout regardless of whether they won GSL or fell into Code B, unless the "contract" stipulated incentives or had clauses to protect against this (and seeing how there seems to be no written contract, this doesn't hold). "Decided to enforce the part of the contract that included practice" You are just making up bs now, what part of the contract stipulated practice time? You're trying to support a position that has no merit unless a written contract allowed for it. Which in this case isn't true. Dude... what kind of white knight business law are you studying... you're going to make a terrible businessman if you think like that. People bend and break contracts ALL the time, and there are middle grounds, all it depends is how good your lawyers are. You keep going by the book and see how long you last. Whether Lee broke the contract or not this is whats happened: they didn't come to practice and they didn't get paid. If the contract is AMBIGUOUS on practice schedules, there is an argument for both sides. Law is not always fair, law is just law. One lesson for you to learn in your long, hard journey ahead. So at least we agree now that what Lee did was wrong and unethical? I personally don't care what you think about business law and whether you feel it means very little. The fact is what Lee did was wrong. Not anymore wrong and unethical than what FruitDealer and Trickster did, which was violate their contract by not practicing. Don't flaunt your business law when you have no idea wtf is going on, just makes you look like a pompous arrogant child. Read above. I never said that I agree with what FD and Trickster did. But that's not the point. While FD and Trickster may have been morally wrong in not practicing hard to really fully commit to their duties, TSL was legally wrong in refusing to pay them. I'm not sure how it's comparable. EDIT: I forgot to mention again, you keep saying they violated their contract. Again, stop spewing bullshit out of your mouth. To clear up your confusion, TSL was not legally wrong if the contract was ambiguous, that's how its comparable.
Actually TSL is still legally wrong. Exemption of a clause does not allow for open interpretation. In fact, it would be construed against the drafter of the contract, presumably TSL (contra preferentem).
Again though, stop spewing bullshit, you're trying to defend a position that is clearly indefensible and it is recognized by most of the people here. I'm not going to bother repeating my arguments again...
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On August 05 2011 03:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 03:39 farnham wrote:http://www.playxp.com/sc2/bbs/view.php?article_id=3254338&page=6startale coach says - it was a contractual condition from the start for fruit dealer and trickster to have free practise hours - mr. lee started as a financial manager but viewed himself as a head coach very soon - mr. lee got the payment from the sponsors but lied that he did not - mr. lee said that he had so much money to spend on running the team. he did not enclose any details until recently. he says for example that tsl used 5 million won for food and 1 million won for convenience stores. tsl had about 8 to 9 players in the house back then. startale in comparison paid about 2,5 million won for food for 15 players and they were fine - mr. lee showed up very seldomly in the team house (once or twice in two month) every player had to manage his own schedule and trickster had to work as a secretary for mr. lee This sounds like shadyness to me. No contracts, no disclosure, a bunch of young kids work and being provided with food. Withholding wages once players stop winning and then claim they arn't working hard enough.
cant believe how many people are supporting mr. lee
it sounds like fraud to me.
could also be disloyalty (배임, untreue doesnt exist in america. applies if you are allowed to manage money of other people and use it for your own good) or embezzlement
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On August 05 2011 03:48 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 03:39 Ribbon wrote:On August 05 2011 03:02 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Just for the records, the SC2Con is a total farce and lacks any power doesn't do anything anyways. I would know.
TL;dr: This is all SC2Con waving their arms around to look powerful when they are not. That's not COMPLETELY true. If you impress at qualifiers at get offers from, say, TSL and Prime, Prime can say "And the players association says we're fair to our players and they don't say it about TSL", and have that advantage in negotiations. Just because it doesn't have binding authority doesn't mean it's rulings don't have weight. How much, I'm not sure. But some. Yeah that's really stopped SlayerS form recruiting a bunch of cold faced killers right? Oh wait....
Well, they have Boxer. And not being in the PA is different that "They got kicked out". It's like a watchdog group, is all.
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On August 05 2011 03:47 Grimsong wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 03:42 GinDo wrote:
No play no pay. Sounds fair enough. Go Lee.
No play, get fired, no pay. Sounds about right. Go logic.
Except what he did was "No play, no pay, stay on the team." From what it sounds like, Lee just decided to stop paying them without actually releasing them from the team. This isn't how things work. Even if they aren't fulfilling their obligations, if you want to have them as a player you have to keep paying them.
This was more directed at GinDo, because unless I misunderstood, Grimsong is saying the same thing I am.
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On August 05 2011 03:51 farnham wrote:
cant believe how many people are supporting mr. lee overly cautious on believing SC2Con
There that would be correct. As FXO.Boss and I have alluded to, the SC2Con is not quite what it seems on the surface and the head of it runs the team that FD and Trickster play on, so there's some really horrible bias going on here.
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On August 05 2011 03:55 Triscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 03:47 Grimsong wrote:On August 05 2011 03:42 GinDo wrote:
No play no pay. Sounds fair enough. Go Lee.
No play, get fired, no pay. Sounds about right. Go logic. Except what he did was "No play, no pay, get fired." From what it sounds like, Lee just decided to stop paying them without actually releasing them from the team. This isn't how things work. Even if they aren't fulfilling their obligations, if you want to have them as a player you have to keep paying them.
I fully agree, which is kinda what I was trying to point out. Friendly fire bro! =p
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On August 05 2011 03:55 Triscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 03:47 Grimsong wrote:On August 05 2011 03:42 GinDo wrote:
No play no pay. Sounds fair enough. Go Lee.
No play, get fired, no pay. Sounds about right. Go logic. Except what he did was "No play, no pay, stay on the team." From what it sounds like, Lee just decided to stop paying them without actually releasing them from the team. This isn't how things work. Even if they aren't fulfilling their obligations, if you want to have them as a player you have to keep paying them.
Grimsong was being sarcastic.
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On August 05 2011 03:42 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 03:28 Plansix wrote:
So let me get this straight:
- The coach, a full grown adult, started a SC2 team made up of players, some of that are under the age of 18. None of them were paid and he counted on their “passion” for the game to binding “agreement” holding the team together.
- When some of them were successful, he made money off of their interviews and advertisements. He offered them wages, once again, with no contract or written agreement.
- When those players did not perform as well, he withheld their wages, but continued to use their interviews and likeness in advertisements.
I don't know a lot about the Coach Lee and his past teams, but on paper this looks like a legal nightmare. At best is poor management and at worst it could be considered child labor, unfair business practices and possibly fraud. Most states(I understand this is not in the US) bar employers from withhold wages, employing children without a contract and using someone’s likeness(aka, picture in an add) without their express(written ) consent.
Players on teams are employees, not matter what people say. If Coach Lee was making money, no matter how much, off of their effort, he should have paid them. If the amount was so small that it could only support the team house, then he should have had contracts with them and keep good records to show this. This is called good business practices and helps with these pesky things call lawsuits.
Also, I am not a fan of anyone under the age of 18 working for someone without a contract. I know not everyone on TSL was, but most of the players are very young. I don't know what is standard in Korea, but the lack of a contract really opens the door for abuse and fraud. Contracts are meant to protect both sides and lay out exactly what both sides are responsible for. When you don't have a contract, situations like this crop up, where both sides have differing ideas of what is expected of them. If one side doesn't want a contract, they are basicly saying "I don't want to be responsable for anything", no matter how they spin it.
I am glad someone is taking TSL to task for not paying their players. If you have a problem with an employee, warn or fire them. Don't withhold their pay and expect them to work. O_O you should get you facts straight. Only FD and Trickster got their wages withheld, because they didn;t want to practice. Both of them are in their 20s. As for the minors they are their on parental consent and free will. You should read up on your facts a bit more before you toss around the old Child Labor shinnanigans. No play no pay. Sounds fair enough. Go Lee.
No child should ever be working without a contract. It's a terrible idea, will lead to abuse. Hell, someone who is in their 20s shouldn't either. Its dumb.
And you should get your facts straight. Coach Lee claims they were not practicing. He has every reason to lie, since he was withholding wages. He should have fire them, rather than withhold wages. And he still should pay them for any adds or interviews he is making money off of.
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On August 05 2011 03:55 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 03:51 farnham wrote:
cant believe how many people are supporting mr. lee overly cautious on believing SC2Con There that would be correct. As FXO.Boss and I have alluded to, the SC2Con is not quite what it seems on the surface and the head of it runs the team that FD and Trickster play on, so there's some really horrible bias going on here.
I think many of us have avoided the SC2Con thing because, at least to me, it's not important. TSL admits to not having paid their players while keeping them on the roster. That in itself is wrong, regardless of who's on SC2con or what the ruling was.
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EPT
