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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On August 05 2011 03:17 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Hm maybe it's time for my long overdue rant post on why SC2Con is useless and in fact detrimental to the Korean scene.
Either way this is all a very very silly.
You made me LOL IRL, ty.
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On August 05 2011 03:02 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Just for the records, the SC2Con is a total farce and lacks any power doesn't do anything anyways. I would know.
TL;dr: This is all SC2Con waving their arms around to look powerful when they are not.
I agree it seems SC2Con is nothing more than smoke and mirrors, but something with that intention done CORRECTLY could definitely make a difference on the scene. It's a matter of the right minds banding together to form something worth a damn.
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So let me get this straight:
- The coach, a full grown adult, started a SC2 team made up of players, some of that are under the age of 18. None of them were paid and he counted on their “passion” for the game to binding “agreement” holding the team together.
- When some of them were successful, he made money off of their interviews and advertisements. He offered them wages, once again, with no contract or written agreement.
- When those players did not perform as well, he withheld their wages, but continued to use their interviews and likeness in advertisements.
I don't know a lot about the Coach Lee and his past teams, but on paper this looks like a legal nightmare. At best is poor management and at worst it could be considered child labor, unfair business practices and possibly fraud. Most states(I understand this is not in the US) bar employers from withhold wages, employing children without a contract and using someone’s likeness(aka, picture in an add) without their express(written ) consent.
Players on teams are employees, not matter what people say. If Coach Lee was making money, no matter how much, off of their effort, he should have paid them. If the amount was so small that it could only support the team house, then he should have had contracts with them and keep good records to show this. This is called good business practices and helps with these pesky things call lawsuits.
Also, I am not a fan of anyone under the age of 18 working for someone without a contract. I know not everyone on TSL was, but most of the players are very young. I don't know what is standard in Korea, but the lack of a contract really opens the door for abuse and fraud. Contracts are meant to protect both sides and lay out exactly what both sides are responsible for. When you don't have a contract, situations like this crop up, where both sides have differing ideas of what is expected of them. If one side doesn't want a contract, they are basicly saying "I don't want to be responsable for anything", no matter how they spin it.
I am glad someone is taking TSL to task for not paying their players. If you have a problem with an employee, warn or fire them. Don't withhold their pay and expect them to work.
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On August 04 2011 20:32 bokchoi wrote:Holy shit O_O... this is pretty serious... Didn't think Coach Lee would be the type of person to do this 
Wait why? What special knowledge about coach lee to do you know that the rest of TL doesn't?
I suppose this post makes a bunch of EG haters look like asshats.
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On August 04 2011 20:48 b_unnies wrote:
Honestly I think what Coach Lee did is fair. Trickster/Fruitdealer don't practice? They don't get paid. Do you expect your boss to pay you if you don't show up for work either?
Yes. Because I'm salaried. As presumably is Fruitdealer. If I spend 6 hours a day on Reddit or TL at work, I expect to get yelled at, written up, and eventually fired. I don't expect my boss to come up and say "Actually you're not worth what we agreed upon. I am altering the agreement. Pray I don't alter it further."
You can't just retroactively and unilaterally renegotiate a contract, even a verbal one, without even warning the other party.
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On August 05 2011 03:27 tl55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 03:16 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 03:07 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:50 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:46 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:30 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:27 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:25 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:20 Talin wrote:On August 05 2011 02:16 FairForever wrote:
[quote]
They got played because they withheld wages from their players (as per sc2con)... okay there, Mr. Lee is definitely the victim right? The players that didn't show up for training and didn't work for their wages, and now after they've left the team they initiated a process to fuck TSL up even more. Yeah, I'd say he's clearly the victim. If FD and Tester had even a little bit of honor and dignity they would just have let it go once they left TSL. But alas... You have to be joking me. FD and Tester earned the money by representing TSL in the GSL and GSTL, and TSL turns around and doesn't pay them for allegedly "not practicing enough". Even if it is true, that does not give TSL the right to withhold wages. I'm not saying that what FD and Tester did was ethically pure. They probably should've done a better job practicing. But what TSL did was clearly in the wrong, both legally and ethically. You sign a contract to come to work. You don't come to work I don't pay you. How is that not simple enough for you to understand? Except they were at work. They participated in the GSL and GSTL which is the crux of the services. TSL isn't paying them to practice, TSL is paying them because TSL hopes to win the GSTL and have one of their stars win the GSL. While their performances and efforts may have been lackluster, it doesn't change the fact that they fulfilled their duties from a legal standpoint (from an ethical one, maybe not). Considering I actually study quite a bit of business law, I'm pretty sure I have a better understanding. There may be differences with Korean and Canadian/American Law but I'm pretty sure the crux of the arguments still hold. I would say what I study lends more importance to the discussion as it's more logical- software engineering. TSL was supposed to pay them not only for tournaments but practice too. Now maybe if they were winning GSTL and GSL left and right not coming to practice 35/45 days wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately they didn't win and didn't come to practice. Understandably coach Lee was angry they were losing, not practicing enough and getting paid, so he decided to enforce the part of the contract that included practice. Contracts can be interpreted differently and can mean different things to different people. In this case the players violated the contract and weren't paid. You are dead wrong here. "Now maybe if they were winning GSTL and GSL... wouldn't be a problem". That goes contrary to the point. This isn't a results-based discussion. FD and Trickster should be treated the same throughout regardless of whether they won GSL or fell into Code B, unless the "contract" stipulated incentives or had clauses to protect against this (and seeing how there seems to be no written contract, this doesn't hold). "Decided to enforce the part of the contract that included practice" You are just making up bs now, what part of the contract stipulated practice time? You're trying to support a position that has no merit unless a written contract allowed for it. Which in this case isn't true. Dude... what kind of white knight business law are you studying... you're going to make a terrible businessman if you think like that. People bend and break contracts ALL the time, and there are middle grounds, all it depends is how good your lawyers are. You keep going by the book and see how long you last. Whether Lee broke the contract or not this is whats happened: they didn't come to practice and they didn't get paid. If the contract is AMBIGUOUS on practice schedules, there is an argument for both sides. Law is not always fair, law is just law. One lesson for you to learn in your long, hard journey ahead. So at least we agree now that what Lee did was wrong and unethical? I personally don't care what you think about business law and whether you feel it means very little. The fact is what Lee did was wrong. Not anymore wrong and unethical than what FruitDealer and Trickster did, which was violate their contract by not practicing. Don't flaunt your business law when you have no idea wtf is going on, just makes you look like a pompous arrogant child.
If Mr. Lee wasn't happy with their performance he should have fired not waited until they quit and then start refusing wages owed.
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On August 05 2011 03:27 tl55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 03:16 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 03:07 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:50 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:46 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:30 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:27 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:25 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:20 Talin wrote:On August 05 2011 02:16 FairForever wrote:
[quote]
They got played because they withheld wages from their players (as per sc2con)... okay there, Mr. Lee is definitely the victim right? The players that didn't show up for training and didn't work for their wages, and now after they've left the team they initiated a process to fuck TSL up even more. Yeah, I'd say he's clearly the victim. If FD and Tester had even a little bit of honor and dignity they would just have let it go once they left TSL. But alas... You have to be joking me. FD and Tester earned the money by representing TSL in the GSL and GSTL, and TSL turns around and doesn't pay them for allegedly "not practicing enough". Even if it is true, that does not give TSL the right to withhold wages. I'm not saying that what FD and Tester did was ethically pure. They probably should've done a better job practicing. But what TSL did was clearly in the wrong, both legally and ethically. You sign a contract to come to work. You don't come to work I don't pay you. How is that not simple enough for you to understand? Except they were at work. They participated in the GSL and GSTL which is the crux of the services. TSL isn't paying them to practice, TSL is paying them because TSL hopes to win the GSTL and have one of their stars win the GSL. While their performances and efforts may have been lackluster, it doesn't change the fact that they fulfilled their duties from a legal standpoint (from an ethical one, maybe not). Considering I actually study quite a bit of business law, I'm pretty sure I have a better understanding. There may be differences with Korean and Canadian/American Law but I'm pretty sure the crux of the arguments still hold. I would say what I study lends more importance to the discussion as it's more logical- software engineering. TSL was supposed to pay them not only for tournaments but practice too. Now maybe if they were winning GSTL and GSL left and right not coming to practice 35/45 days wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately they didn't win and didn't come to practice. Understandably coach Lee was angry they were losing, not practicing enough and getting paid, so he decided to enforce the part of the contract that included practice. Contracts can be interpreted differently and can mean different things to different people. In this case the players violated the contract and weren't paid. You are dead wrong here. "Now maybe if they were winning GSTL and GSL... wouldn't be a problem". That goes contrary to the point. This isn't a results-based discussion. FD and Trickster should be treated the same throughout regardless of whether they won GSL or fell into Code B, unless the "contract" stipulated incentives or had clauses to protect against this (and seeing how there seems to be no written contract, this doesn't hold). "Decided to enforce the part of the contract that included practice" You are just making up bs now, what part of the contract stipulated practice time? You're trying to support a position that has no merit unless a written contract allowed for it. Which in this case isn't true. Dude... what kind of white knight business law are you studying... you're going to make a terrible businessman if you think like that. People bend and break contracts ALL the time, and there are middle grounds, all it depends is how good your lawyers are. You keep going by the book and see how long you last. Whether Lee broke the contract or not this is whats happened: they didn't come to practice and they didn't get paid. If the contract is AMBIGUOUS on practice schedules, there is an argument for both sides. Law is not always fair, law is just law. One lesson for you to learn in your long, hard journey ahead. So at least we agree now that what Lee did was wrong and unethical? I personally don't care what you think about business law and whether you feel it means very little. The fact is what Lee did was wrong. Not anymore wrong and unethical than what FruitDealer and Trickster did, which was violate their contract by not practicing. Don't flaunt your business law when you have no idea wtf is going on, just makes you look like a pompous arrogant child.
Read above. I never said that I agree with what FD and Trickster did. But that's not the point. While FD and Trickster may have been morally wrong in not practicing hard to really fully commit to their duties, TSL was legally wrong in refusing to pay them. I'm not sure how it's comparable.
EDIT: I forgot to mention again, you keep saying they violated their contract. Again, stop spewing bullshit out of your mouth.
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On August 05 2011 03:27 tl55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 03:16 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 03:07 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:50 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:46 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:30 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:27 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:25 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:20 Talin wrote:On August 05 2011 02:16 FairForever wrote:
[quote]
They got played because they withheld wages from their players (as per sc2con)... okay there, Mr. Lee is definitely the victim right? The players that didn't show up for training and didn't work for their wages, and now after they've left the team they initiated a process to fuck TSL up even more. Yeah, I'd say he's clearly the victim. If FD and Tester had even a little bit of honor and dignity they would just have let it go once they left TSL. But alas... You have to be joking me. FD and Tester earned the money by representing TSL in the GSL and GSTL, and TSL turns around and doesn't pay them for allegedly "not practicing enough". Even if it is true, that does not give TSL the right to withhold wages. I'm not saying that what FD and Tester did was ethically pure. They probably should've done a better job practicing. But what TSL did was clearly in the wrong, both legally and ethically. You sign a contract to come to work. You don't come to work I don't pay you. How is that not simple enough for you to understand? Except they were at work. They participated in the GSL and GSTL which is the crux of the services. TSL isn't paying them to practice, TSL is paying them because TSL hopes to win the GSTL and have one of their stars win the GSL. While their performances and efforts may have been lackluster, it doesn't change the fact that they fulfilled their duties from a legal standpoint (from an ethical one, maybe not). Considering I actually study quite a bit of business law, I'm pretty sure I have a better understanding. There may be differences with Korean and Canadian/American Law but I'm pretty sure the crux of the arguments still hold. I would say what I study lends more importance to the discussion as it's more logical- software engineering. TSL was supposed to pay them not only for tournaments but practice too. Now maybe if they were winning GSTL and GSL left and right not coming to practice 35/45 days wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately they didn't win and didn't come to practice. Understandably coach Lee was angry they were losing, not practicing enough and getting paid, so he decided to enforce the part of the contract that included practice. Contracts can be interpreted differently and can mean different things to different people. In this case the players violated the contract and weren't paid. You are dead wrong here. "Now maybe if they were winning GSTL and GSL... wouldn't be a problem". That goes contrary to the point. This isn't a results-based discussion. FD and Trickster should be treated the same throughout regardless of whether they won GSL or fell into Code B, unless the "contract" stipulated incentives or had clauses to protect against this (and seeing how there seems to be no written contract, this doesn't hold). "Decided to enforce the part of the contract that included practice" You are just making up bs now, what part of the contract stipulated practice time? You're trying to support a position that has no merit unless a written contract allowed for it. Which in this case isn't true. Dude... what kind of white knight business law are you studying... you're going to make a terrible businessman if you think like that. People bend and break contracts ALL the time, and there are middle grounds, all it depends is how good your lawyers are. You keep going by the book and see how long you last. Whether Lee broke the contract or not this is whats happened: they didn't come to practice and they didn't get paid. If the contract is AMBIGUOUS on practice schedules, there is an argument for both sides. Law is not always fair, law is just law. One lesson for you to learn in your long, hard journey ahead. So at least we agree now that what Lee did was wrong and unethical? I personally don't care what you think about business law and whether you feel it means very little. The fact is what Lee did was wrong. Not anymore wrong and unethical than what FruitDealer and Trickster did, which was violate their contract by not practicing. Don't flaunt your business law when you have no idea wtf is going on, just makes you look like a pompous arrogant child.
Except there's been no confirmation that any actual violation occurred. Unless their contracts specified practice requirements (and there has been no confirmation that I have seen of such clauses) then no violation could occur.
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This further solidifies the shadiness of Coach Lee. Refer to the EG incident. Puma and EG say that the talk with Lee went well, then Lee goes behinds their backs and stir up crap? I dunno why everyone focused that it was EG's fault, when you gotta say that Lee's actions were incredibly suspect.
Now I'm no longer in doubt, lost my respect for the Coach. Withholding pay from his players? That's disgusting, that's dog behaviour.
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On August 05 2011 03:34 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 20:48 b_unnies wrote:
Honestly I think what Coach Lee did is fair. Trickster/Fruitdealer don't practice? They don't get paid. Do you expect your boss to pay you if you don't show up for work either? Yes. Because I'm salaried. As presumably is Fruitdealer. If I spend 6 hours a day on Reddit or TL at work, I expect to get yelled at, written up, and eventually fired. I don't expect my boss to come up and say "Actually you're not worth what we agreed upon. I am altering the agreement. Pray I don't alter it further." You can't just retroactively and unilaterally renegotiate a contract, even a verbal one, without even warning the other party.
Exactly this.
Makes me wonder how many people posting here have ever had a job before.
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On August 05 2011 03:02 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Just for the records, the SC2Con is a total farce and lacks any power doesn't do anything anyways. I would know.
TL;dr: This is all SC2Con waving their arms around to look powerful when they are not.
That's not COMPLETELY true. If you impress at qualifiers at get offers from, say, TSL and Prime, Prime can say "And the players association says we're fair to our players and they don't say it about TSL", and have that advantage in negotiations.
Just because it doesn't have binding authority doesn't mean it's rulings don't have weight. How much, I'm not sure. But some.
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http://www.playxp.com/sc2/bbs/view.php?article_id=3254338&page=6
startale coach says
- it was a contractual condition from the start for fruit dealer and trickster to have free practise hours
- mr. lee started as a financial manager but viewed himself as a head coach very soon
- mr. lee got the payment from the sponsors but lied that he did not
- mr. lee said that he had so much money to spend on running the team. he did not enclose any details until recently. he says for example that tsl used 5 million won for food and 1 million won for convenience stores. tsl had about 8 to 9 players in the house back then. startale in comparison paid about 2,5 million won for food for 15 players and they were fine
- mr. lee showed up very seldomly in the team house (once or twice in two month) every player had to manage his own schedule and trickster had to work as a secretary for mr. lee
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On August 05 2011 03:33 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 20:32 bokchoi wrote:Holy shit O_O... this is pretty serious... Didn't think Coach Lee would be the type of person to do this Wait why? What special knowledge about coach lee to do you know that the rest of TL doesn't? I suppose this post makes a bunch of EG haters look like asshats.
Um, people have had plenty of knowledge about Coach Lee through following Brood War and his time as a coach on MBC. Hell, see "Hyungjoon becomes a Pro-gamer."
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I honestly feel like TSL is still in the wrong here for withholding money from FD and SKS. Unless of course they didn't have an actual contract (like Puma), then I see no problem at all.
Actually lying about not having money you do have is pretty bad.
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On August 05 2011 03:35 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 03:27 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 03:16 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 03:07 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:50 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:46 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:30 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:27 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:25 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:20 Talin wrote:
[quote]
The players that didn't show up for training and didn't work for their wages, and now after they've left the team they initiated a process to fuck TSL up even more.
Yeah, I'd say he's clearly the victim.
If FD and Tester had even a little bit of honor and dignity they would just have let it go once they left TSL. But alas... You have to be joking me. FD and Tester earned the money by representing TSL in the GSL and GSTL, and TSL turns around and doesn't pay them for allegedly "not practicing enough". Even if it is true, that does not give TSL the right to withhold wages. I'm not saying that what FD and Tester did was ethically pure. They probably should've done a better job practicing. But what TSL did was clearly in the wrong, both legally and ethically. You sign a contract to come to work. You don't come to work I don't pay you. How is that not simple enough for you to understand? Except they were at work. They participated in the GSL and GSTL which is the crux of the services. TSL isn't paying them to practice, TSL is paying them because TSL hopes to win the GSTL and have one of their stars win the GSL. While their performances and efforts may have been lackluster, it doesn't change the fact that they fulfilled their duties from a legal standpoint (from an ethical one, maybe not). Considering I actually study quite a bit of business law, I'm pretty sure I have a better understanding. There may be differences with Korean and Canadian/American Law but I'm pretty sure the crux of the arguments still hold. I would say what I study lends more importance to the discussion as it's more logical- software engineering. TSL was supposed to pay them not only for tournaments but practice too. Now maybe if they were winning GSTL and GSL left and right not coming to practice 35/45 days wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately they didn't win and didn't come to practice. Understandably coach Lee was angry they were losing, not practicing enough and getting paid, so he decided to enforce the part of the contract that included practice. Contracts can be interpreted differently and can mean different things to different people. In this case the players violated the contract and weren't paid. You are dead wrong here. "Now maybe if they were winning GSTL and GSL... wouldn't be a problem". That goes contrary to the point. This isn't a results-based discussion. FD and Trickster should be treated the same throughout regardless of whether they won GSL or fell into Code B, unless the "contract" stipulated incentives or had clauses to protect against this (and seeing how there seems to be no written contract, this doesn't hold). "Decided to enforce the part of the contract that included practice" You are just making up bs now, what part of the contract stipulated practice time? You're trying to support a position that has no merit unless a written contract allowed for it. Which in this case isn't true. Dude... what kind of white knight business law are you studying... you're going to make a terrible businessman if you think like that. People bend and break contracts ALL the time, and there are middle grounds, all it depends is how good your lawyers are. You keep going by the book and see how long you last. Whether Lee broke the contract or not this is whats happened: they didn't come to practice and they didn't get paid. If the contract is AMBIGUOUS on practice schedules, there is an argument for both sides. Law is not always fair, law is just law. One lesson for you to learn in your long, hard journey ahead. So at least we agree now that what Lee did was wrong and unethical? I personally don't care what you think about business law and whether you feel it means very little. The fact is what Lee did was wrong. Not anymore wrong and unethical than what FruitDealer and Trickster did, which was violate their contract by not practicing. Don't flaunt your business law when you have no idea wtf is going on, just makes you look like a pompous arrogant child. Read above. I never said that I agree with what FD and Trickster did. But that's not the point. While FD and Trickster may have been morally wrong in not practicing hard to really fully commit to their duties, TSL was legally wrong in refusing to pay them. I'm not sure how it's comparable.
Well they didn't have contract(or that is my understanding of how TSL ran things). Also, he didn't pay them, but continued to use their interviews and collect money from adds they appeared in. Basiclly he said "I'm going to continue to make money off you, but i don't think your working hard enough. Work harder and maybe I'll pay you again."
If my boss said that to me(which would never happen, because he is not dumb), we would never speak again. All correspondence would take place through my attorney.
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On August 04 2011 20:35 Aegeis wrote:
Does the SC2PA have any actual power?
lol not at all. Slayers isnt in this association if i remember correctly
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On August 05 2011 03:39 farnham wrote:http://www.playxp.com/sc2/bbs/view.php?article_id=3254338&page=6startale coach says - it was a contractual condition from the start for fruit dealer and trickster to have free practise hours - mr. lee started as a financial manager but viewed himself as a head coach very soon - mr. lee got the payment from the sponsors but lied that he did not - mr. lee said that he had so much money to spend on running the team. he did not enclose any details until recently. he says for example that tsl used 5 million won for food and 1 million won for convenience stores. tsl had about 8 to 9 players in the house back then. startale in comparison paid about 2,5 million won for food for 15 players and they were fine - mr. lee showed up very seldomly in the team house (once or twice in two month) every player had to manage his own schedule and trickster had to work as a secretary for mr. lee
Thank you for this!
Though it's always been known that TSL had the best food out of all the progaming houses. 
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I think we're all in agreement here now, just a couple of people who think it's okay for employers not to pay employees for time worked...
Although when you work at an accounting firm you technically don't get paid for the time you work 
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On August 05 2011 03:28 Plansix wrote:
So let me get this straight:
- The coach, a full grown adult, started a SC2 team made up of players, some of that are under the age of 18. None of them were paid and he counted on their “passion” for the game to binding “agreement” holding the team together.
- When some of them were successful, he made money off of their interviews and advertisements. He offered them wages, once again, with no contract or written agreement.
- When those players did not perform as well, he withheld their wages, but continued to use their interviews and likeness in advertisements.
I don't know a lot about the Coach Lee and his past teams, but on paper this looks like a legal nightmare. At best is poor management and at worst it could be considered child labor, unfair business practices and possibly fraud. Most states(I understand this is not in the US) bar employers from withhold wages, employing children without a contract and using someone’s likeness(aka, picture in an add) without their express(written ) consent.
Players on teams are employees, not matter what people say. If Coach Lee was making money, no matter how much, off of their effort, he should have paid them. If the amount was so small that it could only support the team house, then he should have had contracts with them and keep good records to show this. This is called good business practices and helps with these pesky things call lawsuits.
Also, I am not a fan of anyone under the age of 18 working for someone without a contract. I know not everyone on TSL was, but most of the players are very young. I don't know what is standard in Korea, but the lack of a contract really opens the door for abuse and fraud. Contracts are meant to protect both sides and lay out exactly what both sides are responsible for. When you don't have a contract, situations like this crop up, where both sides have differing ideas of what is expected of them. If one side doesn't want a contract, they are basicly saying "I don't want to be responsable for anything", no matter how they spin it.
I am glad someone is taking TSL to task for not paying their players. If you have a problem with an employee, warn or fire them. Don't withhold their pay and expect them to work.
O_O you should get you facts straight. Only FD and Trickster got their wages withheld, because they didn;t want to practice. Both of them are in their 20s. As for the minors they are their on parental consent and free will. You should read up on your facts a bit more before you toss around the old Child Labor shinnanigans.
No play no pay. Sounds fair enough. Go Lee.
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if it was agreed by the parties that employees are free with their working hours then they should not be blamed now that they did not attend the practise hours so often.
also mr. lee went to the practise house twice in two month i dont believe he knows anything about the practise hours of the players at all.
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EPT
