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Fionn
United States23455 Posts
On August 05 2011 02:49 King of Kings wrote: So whats the Association? So what changes that for TSL? Nothing really. Slayers isn't apart of the association either and they're doing perfectly fine. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
I think if the teams would suspend players without pay when they aren't performing this wouldn't even be an issue. A team should be able to suspend a player based on performance or lack of practice, contract or not (though honestly it should be written into a contract). | ||
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Drlemur
United States153 Posts
On one hand you can say the players weren't warned their wages would be withheld, so you can't do that. On the other hand, you can say they may not have had a proper contract guaranteeing their pay, so the manager can do as he sees fit. Likewise, the arbitration hearing fell apart because nobody has standing to enforce the ruling -- you'd need a written agreement between the teams and SC2con for that as well (to make the arbitration ruling binding). Obviously, the player-team-conference arrangements need to be professionalized. Written contracts are the first step, but not the last. The battle over fairly sharing the revenue never really ends (e.g., the regular lock-out/strikes that go on in US sports). | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On August 05 2011 02:44 FairForever wrote: Not following employment law isn't ethical at all. I'm glad you don't own any kind of business... In all seriousness though, how can it be ethical? Coach Lee knew the legal standards when he chose to manage/coach TSL, he's not an idiot. He openly and willingly defied them to the detriment of his employees. This isn't some ethical high-ground Coach Lee is taking here, he's essentially giving a proverbial "F U" to his team. Over 99% of the time, something that isn't legal isn't ethical (depending on what theory you subscribe to... based on what you've said, you seem like an enlightened egoist). There was no reason for Lee to defy standard law. I'm also glad I don't own any kind of business tbh. Seems like a very repulsive activity to spend my life on. Coach Lee probably knew what kind of contract he had with FD and Tester, but here's the big point: he TRUSTED them to work hard and do their best when they're getting paid because they were friends and basically founded and built the team together (there was actually a long interview with Lee way back last year when he talked about his relationship with the players and all that stuff). This is why there were probably never any conditional terms in the contracts (which would imply a lack of trust in general, and especially so in Korea). | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On August 05 2011 02:53 Jayrod wrote: I think if the teams would suspend players without pay when they aren't performing this wouldn't even be an issue. A team should be able to suspend a player based on performance or lack of practice, contract or not (though honestly it should be written into a contract). Good thing employment law protects employees from getting fired left and right. I hope you come to appreciate the protections given to employees in the private sector (not necessarily unionized public sector workers) when you make a mistake and don't get fired on the spot without any remuneration. | ||
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FeeL_ThE_RusH
Ireland227 Posts
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Grimsong
United States252 Posts
On August 05 2011 02:53 Jayrod wrote: so weird.. normally an entity will say "Hey we are going to expel you" and then the person getting canned has an opportunity to leave before it gets made public. Its the typical 'you cant fire me, I quit' scenario. Here we have 'you cant quit, we fire you'... makes no sense... doesn't seem right to smear the team even further needlessly... just let them be on their way. I think if the teams would suspend players without pay when they aren't performing this wouldn't even be an issue. A team should be able to suspend a player based on performance or lack of practice, contract or not (though honestly it should be written into a contract). That's not the case though, they gave TSL the chance to correct their actions (hey you messed up but here's a chance to fix it by paying back the wages you withheld.) tsl didn't want to so they backed out, and then were consequently expelled from said association. | ||
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Telcontar
United Kingdom16710 Posts
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primarch359
United States119 Posts
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On August 05 2011 02:54 Talin wrote: I'm also glad I don't own any kind of business tbh. Seems like a very repulsive activity to spend my life on. Coach Lee probably knew what kind of contract he had with FD and Tester, but here's the big point: he TRUSTED them to work hard and do their best when they're getting paid because they were friends and basically founded and built the team together (there was actually a long interview with Lee way back last year when he talked about his relationship with the players and all that stuff). This is why there were probably never any conditional terms in the contracts (which would imply a lack of trust in general, and especially so in Korea). Just like he TRUSTED Puma? There seems to be a common denominator in all of these problems... maybe at best he's making assumptions that are not communicated properly, at worst he's making stuff up after-the-fact. | ||
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
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JinDesu
United States3990 Posts
On August 05 2011 02:56 primarch359 wrote: Anyone else now feel bad about blaming EG for the puma team change? No. I'm curious to hear ST's statement since it's out there - I'd imagine it's defending Tester and FD... but FD has said time and again that he wanted to relax and not take the game as though it was brood war.. | ||
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Darth Caedus
United States326 Posts
On August 05 2011 02:36 Talin wrote: If what Lee says is true, then what TSL did was perfectly ethical. They've a bunch of guys on the roster that aren't getting any money at all, and they are supposed to pay fat wages to two spoiled players who were regular pushovers since they started getting the salary. And given their performance with regards to their talent and potential, what Lee says is extremely likely to be true. They just weren't working for it. As for what is legally right or wrong, I quite honestly couldn't care less. I decide myself what I consider to be right or wrong personally, and legal technicalities are not too high on my priority list at all. This is a truely mind-blowing way to look at it. Whether or not other people on the team were getting paid is completely irrelevant to those who did have signed contracts that TSL *wrote*. If an employer promises wages and an employee agrees to the contract, then an empoloyer does not have the right to withhold wages without notice simply because the employees are not "trying hard enough". I guess you'd be fine to showing up to work one payday and not receiving a check because your boss had said he had seen you not working hard enough, and that if you wanted your next check you would have to work much harder. If that happened to me without notice I'd be much more likely to react as FD + Tester did and quit and tell him to screw off, because an employer who breaches his own contract on a whim is likely not one to be trusted moving forward. The appropriate action of the employer is to warn a slacking employee and FIRE them if they are not going to pay for the quality of work the employee is providing. It's not right to keep them on staff and working without previously agreed to pay as a power move. As for the last part: "As for what is legally right or wrong, I quite honestly couldn't care less. I decide myself what I consider to be right or wrong personally, and legal technicalities are not too high on my priority list at all." Good luck living in any society that have those little, irrelevant things called "laws". | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On August 05 2011 02:09 Talin wrote: I'm thinking FD and Tester would fit right in. Should've went for them instead of Puma,  Too bad FD and Tester are too lazy to win the online qualifier to get to NASL  | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
TL;dr: This is all SC2Con waving their arms around to look powerful when they are not. | ||
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babylon
8765 Posts
If someone is being lazy on the job and/or hurting the team morale, you fire them. You don't refuse to pay them as a disciplining tool. FD and Trickster were lazy. What else is new? We've known this ever since they left oGs. Lee should have released them from the team earlier to avoid this entire fiasco, but he decided to keep them on in the hopes that they'd produce results and to continue to use them for media attention. This is not irrational. The problem is, his gambit didn't pay off, and when it didn't, he decided not to pay them. That is sketchy no matter how you turn it. Risks are involved either way. Do you keep on two under-performing players and hope they do better instead of becoming money sinks, or do you fire them even though they're the ones who attracted your sponsors in the first place? He accepted the risks when he decided to go with the first route; it didn't pay off and he's deciding, in the end, that he doesn't want to deal with the consequences, even though he, as I said before, accepted the risks when he made the decision. Waiting on the translation for the other sources before saying anything more. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On August 05 2011 02:56 FairForever wrote: Just like he TRUSTED Puma? There seems to be a common denominator in all of these problems... maybe at best he's making assumptions that are not communicated properly, at worst he's making stuff up after-the-fact. I don't know, to me it makes sense to trust people you're working closely with. I don't see why you would imply he made stuff up after-the-fact. In Puma's case there was nothing to make up - he just commented on what everybody saw happen. In this case, FD and Tester's attitude towards the game, the competition and their former team (that they actually started) tells me that Lee's side of the story is very likely closer to truth than anything FD and Tester say at this point. | ||
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InstantKarma
United States205 Posts
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babylon
8765 Posts
On August 05 2011 03:02 iCCup.Diamond wrote: Just for the records, the SC2Con is a total farce and lacks any power doesn't do anything anyways. I would know. Well, the one thing they do have is the power of publicity, I'd say, which is worth something. | ||
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
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