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On August 05 2011 02:32 Waxangel wrote:
Toothless organization that can't actually punish unpaid salaries? I never thought anything would make me miss KeSPA...
At least there is punishment in some sort. No reputable, developed player would ever go to TSL again I believe. TSL has to really hope that they can develop talent in-house, especially now that other teams seem to resent what they've done.
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I always get the impression that Cool and SKS just run around with leather jackets and shades on and whenever anyone wants them to do something they don't wanna do they flip them off and call them squares.
Ride on your crazy cowboys, ride on.
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TSL finally lost all of the respect i had left for them
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On August 05 2011 02:25 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 02:20 Talin wrote:On August 05 2011 02:16 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:14 Talin wrote:On August 05 2011 02:11 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:07 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:05 karpo wrote:On August 05 2011 02:05 MisterFred wrote:
Well, what does everyone think about Evil Geniuses NOW? You're the 100th person saying that in this thread. Realize that it's two different things. I don't want to get into an argument about this, but it does call into question a lot of things that we believed to be true from Mr. Lee, who knows if he was being deceitful... Anyway back on topic, hope someone will translate the article  Mr. Lee went to the press before consulting with EG about Puma . Doesn't exactly lend to the idea of Mr. Lee being forthcoming and honest. Eh, he went to the press because EG didn't consult with him about that (or anything else). And they've had plenty of time to do so if they ever really wanted to. Also, in this case Lee (and TSL) got played again, so I'm not entirely sure why he's the bad guy. -_- They got played because they withheld wages from their players (as per sc2con)... okay there, Mr. Lee is definitely the victim right? The players that didn't show up for training and didn't work for their wages, and now after they've left the team they initiated a process to fuck TSL up even more. Yeah, I'd say he's clearly the victim. If FD and Tester had even a little bit of honor and dignity they would just have let it go once they left TSL. But alas... You have to be joking me. FD and Tester earned the money by representing TSL in the GSL and GSTL, and TSL turns around and doesn't pay them for allegedly "not practicing enough". Even if it is true, that does not give TSL the right to withhold wages. I'm not saying that what FD and Tester did was ethically pure. They probably should've done a better job practicing. But what TSL did was clearly in the wrong, both legally and ethically.
If what Lee says is true, then what TSL did was perfectly ethical. They've a bunch of guys on the roster that aren't getting any money at all, and they are supposed to pay fat wages to two spoiled players who were regular pushovers since they started getting the salary.
And given their performance with regards to their talent and potential, what Lee says is extremely likely to be true. They just weren't working for it.
As for what is legally right or wrong, I quite honestly couldn't care less. I decide myself what I consider to be right or wrong personally, and legal technicalities are not too high on my priority list at all.
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wow TSL was so promising when they first came out, so sad to see it end this way. Best of luck to both parties.
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Netherlands44 Posts
You sign a contract to come to work. You don't come to work I don't pay you. How is that not simple enough for you to understand?
Lol gladly it does not work that way. It is: You sign a contract to come to work. You don't come to work I fire you. And when you are fired you will not get any loan.
You always need to pay the loan of the employee until you fire him else i can just don't pay my employees because they where one second late or one hour, one day, one week etc. what is the point that is enough, that is (in that case) all to the company then and that is bad believe me. Contracts in NL normally have a period of minimal a month to communicate to the person and the the date he realy needs to go. Thats way better
So overall this is just bad management and even worse for morality. To bad to see it working this way.
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On August 05 2011 02:27 tl55555 wrote:
You sign a contract to come to work. You don't come to work I don't pay you. How is that not simple enough for you to understand?
How was "work" defined in their agreement? Minimum daily hours of practice? Tournament attendance? Simply being affiliated with the team and doing whatever they want? This doesn't sound like Coach Lee is claiming they were violating the terms of agreement, in which case he had no leg to stand on for withholding money.
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I think it's going to take a while for someone to translate this reply which was done by StarTale coach,
http://www.playxp.com/sc2/bbs/view.php?article_id=3254338
so I will go ahead and try to do bits of it.
Basically, the first part of it is coach's own opinion and some facts (maybe, maybe not)
Second part is what FD's and Tester's point of view, this is what I'm going to paraphrase
1) coach Lee was never around the team. sometimes, he visited the team once in a two month. (WTF?) Tester had to do the administration work time to time.
2) Lying and Withholding monthly pay. yeah pretty much what you expect. but some more details like how coach lee refused to show monthly bills of the team when asked by the two despite he promised to be as transparent as possible in the beginning
3) copyright issue, how coach lee was very slow to react to it and refused to pay about a month usage of the copyright
4) Lack of Trust issue. If indeed what coach said to two of them were true, (that the team was in real financial funk), they wouldn't have asked for the money to be paid. Small bits of disproving TSL coach's claim that he had to loan the money from the bank and what not.
Finally their thought of this whole mess. even though they maynot have acted as a model pro gamer, coach Lee was likely in it for money. they are sorry for the fans and everyone for this messed up situation.
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On August 05 2011 02:32 Masil wrote:It seems that Startale manager, FD and Tester make a statement to clear all arguments around this issue. http://www.playxp.com/sc2/bbs/view.php?article_id=3254338&page=5This is Korean source, and the statement is pretty long... If someone knows Korean, please go ahead and read. Maybe I could translate this but it takes some amount of time.
Would you mind giving us a really quick summary?
EDIT: Thanks to poster above for doing so.
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On August 05 2011 02:36 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 02:25 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:20 Talin wrote:On August 05 2011 02:16 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:14 Talin wrote:On August 05 2011 02:11 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:07 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:05 karpo wrote:On August 05 2011 02:05 MisterFred wrote:
Well, what does everyone think about Evil Geniuses NOW? You're the 100th person saying that in this thread. Realize that it's two different things. I don't want to get into an argument about this, but it does call into question a lot of things that we believed to be true from Mr. Lee, who knows if he was being deceitful... Anyway back on topic, hope someone will translate the article Mr. Lee went to the press before consulting with EG about Puma . Doesn't exactly lend to the idea of Mr. Lee being forthcoming and honest. Eh, he went to the press because EG didn't consult with him about that (or anything else). And they've had plenty of time to do so if they ever really wanted to. Also, in this case Lee (and TSL) got played again, so I'm not entirely sure why he's the bad guy. -_- They got played because they withheld wages from their players (as per sc2con)... okay there, Mr. Lee is definitely the victim right? The players that didn't show up for training and didn't work for their wages, and now after they've left the team they initiated a process to fuck TSL up even more. Yeah, I'd say he's clearly the victim. If FD and Tester had even a little bit of honor and dignity they would just have let it go once they left TSL. But alas... You have to be joking me. FD and Tester earned the money by representing TSL in the GSL and GSTL, and TSL turns around and doesn't pay them for allegedly "not practicing enough". Even if it is true, that does not give TSL the right to withhold wages. I'm not saying that what FD and Tester did was ethically pure. They probably should've done a better job practicing. But what TSL did was clearly in the wrong, both legally and ethically. If what Lee says is true, then what TSL did was perfectly ethical. They've a bunch of guys on the roster that aren't getting any money at all, and they are supposed to pay fat wages to two spoiled players who were regular pushovers since they started getting the salary. And given their performance with regards to their talent and potential, what Lee says is extremely likely to be true. They just weren't working for it. As for what is legally right or wrong, I quite honestly couldn't care less. I decide myself what I consider to be right or wrong personally, and legal technicalities are not too high on my priority list at all.
Not following employment law isn't ethical at all. I'm glad you don't own any kind of business...
In all seriousness though, how can it be ethical? Coach Lee knew the legal standards when he chose to manage/coach TSL, he's not an idiot. He openly and willingly defied them to the detriment of his employees. This isn't some ethical high-ground Coach Lee is taking here, he's essentially giving a proverbial "F U" to his team.
Over 99% of the time, something that isn't legal isn't ethical (depending on what theory you subscribe to... based on what you've said, you seem like an enlightened egoist). There was no reason for Lee to defy standard law.
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So EG received a whole shitstorm for nothing in the foreign scene, and Puma likewise in the Korean scene. Wonderful.
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On August 05 2011 02:44 Yemack wrote:I think it's going to take a while for someone to translate this reply which was done by StarTale coach, http://www.playxp.com/sc2/bbs/view.php?article_id=3254338so I will go ahead and try to do bits of it. Basically, the first part of it is coach's own opinion and some facts (maybe, maybe not) Second part is what FD's and Tester's point of view, this is what I'm going to paraphrase 1) coach Lee was never around the team. sometimes, he visited the team once in a two month. (WTF?) Tester had to do the administration work time to time. 2) Lying and Withholding monthly pay. yeah pretty much what you expect. but some more details like how coach lee refused to show monthly bills of the team when asked by the two despite he promised to be as transparent as possible in the beginning 3) copyright issue, how coach lee was very slow to react to it and refused to pay about a month usage of the copyright 4) Lack of Trust issue. If indeed what coach said to two of them were true, (that the team was in real financial funk), they wouldn't have asked for the money to be paid. Small bits of disproving TSL coach's claim that he had to loan the money from the bank and what not. Finally their thought of this whole mess. even though they maynot have acted as a model pro gamer, coach Lee was likely in it for money. they are sorry for the fans and everyone for this messed up situation.
To be fair, ST obviously has to protect its new players so it is to be expected that they'd openly support Tester and FD. Take what was said with a grain of salt, I'm not sure I can believe #1, and #4 is very subjective.
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I don't care who's telling the truth.
good for Puma to get out before it hit the fan and focus on his career.
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On August 05 2011 02:30 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 02:27 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:25 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:20 Talin wrote:On August 05 2011 02:16 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:14 Talin wrote:On August 05 2011 02:11 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:07 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:05 karpo wrote:On August 05 2011 02:05 MisterFred wrote:
Well, what does everyone think about Evil Geniuses NOW? You're the 100th person saying that in this thread. Realize that it's two different things. I don't want to get into an argument about this, but it does call into question a lot of things that we believed to be true from Mr. Lee, who knows if he was being deceitful... Anyway back on topic, hope someone will translate the article Mr. Lee went to the press before consulting with EG about Puma . Doesn't exactly lend to the idea of Mr. Lee being forthcoming and honest. Eh, he went to the press because EG didn't consult with him about that (or anything else). And they've had plenty of time to do so if they ever really wanted to. Also, in this case Lee (and TSL) got played again, so I'm not entirely sure why he's the bad guy. -_- They got played because they withheld wages from their players (as per sc2con)... okay there, Mr. Lee is definitely the victim right? The players that didn't show up for training and didn't work for their wages, and now after they've left the team they initiated a process to fuck TSL up even more. Yeah, I'd say he's clearly the victim. If FD and Tester had even a little bit of honor and dignity they would just have let it go once they left TSL. But alas... You have to be joking me. FD and Tester earned the money by representing TSL in the GSL and GSTL, and TSL turns around and doesn't pay them for allegedly "not practicing enough". Even if it is true, that does not give TSL the right to withhold wages. I'm not saying that what FD and Tester did was ethically pure. They probably should've done a better job practicing. But what TSL did was clearly in the wrong, both legally and ethically. You sign a contract to come to work. You don't come to work I don't pay you. How is that not simple enough for you to understand? Except they were at work. They participated in the GSL and GSTL which is the crux of the services. TSL isn't paying them to practice, TSL is paying them because TSL hopes to win the GSTL and have one of their stars win the GSL. While their performances and efforts may have been lackluster, it doesn't change the fact that they fulfilled their duties from a legal standpoint (from an ethical one, maybe not). Considering I actually study quite a bit of business law, I'm pretty sure I have a better understanding. There may be differences with Korean and Canadian/American Law but I'm pretty sure the crux of the arguments still hold.
I would say what I study lends more importance to the discussion as it's more logical- software engineering.
TSL was supposed to pay them not only for tournaments but practice too. Now maybe if they were winning GSTL and GSL left and right not coming to practice 35/45 days wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately they didn't win and didn't come to practice.
Understandably coach Lee was angry they were losing, not practicing enough and getting paid, so he decided to enforce the part of the contract that included practice.
Contracts can be interpreted differently and can mean different things to different people. In this case the players violated the contract and weren't paid.
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On August 05 2011 02:45 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 02:44 Yemack wrote:I think it's going to take a while for someone to translate this reply which was done by StarTale coach, http://www.playxp.com/sc2/bbs/view.php?article_id=3254338so I will go ahead and try to do bits of it. Basically, the first part of it is coach's own opinion and some facts (maybe, maybe not) Second part is what FD's and Tester's point of view, this is what I'm going to paraphrase 1) coach Lee was never around the team. sometimes, he visited the team once in a two month. (WTF?) Tester had to do the administration work time to time. 2) Lying and Withholding monthly pay. yeah pretty much what you expect. but some more details like how coach lee refused to show monthly bills of the team when asked by the two despite he promised to be as transparent as possible in the beginning 3) copyright issue, how coach lee was very slow to react to it and refused to pay about a month usage of the copyright 4) Lack of Trust issue. If indeed what coach said to two of them were true, (that the team was in real financial funk), they wouldn't have asked for the money to be paid. Small bits of disproving TSL coach's claim that he had to loan the money from the bank and what not. Finally their thought of this whole mess. even though they maynot have acted as a model pro gamer, coach Lee was likely in it for money. they are sorry for the fans and everyone for this messed up situation. To be fair, ST obviously has to protect its new players so it is to be expected that they'd openly support Tester and FD. Take what was said with a grain of salt, I'm not sure I can believe #1, and #4 is very subjective.
well I'm just a messenger. Dont shoot me
yeah I kinda agree with you and to be totally honest, I don't really trust StarTale coach neither. Before this whole ordeal, ST coach was the bottom on my list of coach who I would trust. That's why I left out the first part of the reply.
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Yeah..Coach Lee..he is a saint! What an ass.
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So whats the Association? So what changes that for TSL?
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On August 05 2011 02:42 Dranak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 02:27 tl55555 wrote:
You sign a contract to come to work. You don't come to work I don't pay you. How is that not simple enough for you to understand? How was "work" defined in their agreement? Minimum daily hours of practice? Tournament attendance? Simply being affiliated with the team and doing whatever they want? This doesn't sound like Coach Lee is claiming they were violating the terms of agreement, in which case he had no leg to stand on for withholding money.
This is all true. Imagine how much easier this all becomes if tsl used written contracts instead of verbal agreements.
Even if he did, until he fires his employees they're due the money they were in agreement to receive. It seems pretty straightforward
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On August 05 2011 02:46 tl55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 02:30 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:27 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:25 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:20 Talin wrote:On August 05 2011 02:16 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:14 Talin wrote:On August 05 2011 02:11 tl55555 wrote:On August 05 2011 02:07 FairForever wrote:On August 05 2011 02:05 karpo wrote:
[quote]
You're the 100th person saying that in this thread. Realize that it's two different things. I don't want to get into an argument about this, but it does call into question a lot of things that we believed to be true from Mr. Lee, who knows if he was being deceitful... Anyway back on topic, hope someone will translate the article Mr. Lee went to the press before consulting with EG about Puma . Doesn't exactly lend to the idea of Mr. Lee being forthcoming and honest. Eh, he went to the press because EG didn't consult with him about that (or anything else). And they've had plenty of time to do so if they ever really wanted to. Also, in this case Lee (and TSL) got played again, so I'm not entirely sure why he's the bad guy. -_- They got played because they withheld wages from their players (as per sc2con)... okay there, Mr. Lee is definitely the victim right? The players that didn't show up for training and didn't work for their wages, and now after they've left the team they initiated a process to fuck TSL up even more. Yeah, I'd say he's clearly the victim. If FD and Tester had even a little bit of honor and dignity they would just have let it go once they left TSL. But alas... You have to be joking me. FD and Tester earned the money by representing TSL in the GSL and GSTL, and TSL turns around and doesn't pay them for allegedly "not practicing enough". Even if it is true, that does not give TSL the right to withhold wages. I'm not saying that what FD and Tester did was ethically pure. They probably should've done a better job practicing. But what TSL did was clearly in the wrong, both legally and ethically. You sign a contract to come to work. You don't come to work I don't pay you. How is that not simple enough for you to understand? Except they were at work. They participated in the GSL and GSTL which is the crux of the services. TSL isn't paying them to practice, TSL is paying them because TSL hopes to win the GSTL and have one of their stars win the GSL. While their performances and efforts may have been lackluster, it doesn't change the fact that they fulfilled their duties from a legal standpoint (from an ethical one, maybe not). Considering I actually study quite a bit of business law, I'm pretty sure I have a better understanding. There may be differences with Korean and Canadian/American Law but I'm pretty sure the crux of the arguments still hold. I would say what I study lends more importance to the discussion as it's more logical- software engineering. TSL was supposed to pay them not only for tournaments but practice too. Now maybe if they were winning GSTL and GSL left and right not coming to practice 35/45 days wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately they didn't win and didn't come to practice. Understandably coach Lee was angry they were losing, not practicing enough and getting paid, so he decided to enforce the part of the contract that included practice. Contracts can be interpreted differently and can mean different things to different people. In this case the players violated the contract and weren't paid.
You are dead wrong here.
"Now maybe if they were winning GSTL and GSL... wouldn't be a problem". That goes contrary to the point. This isn't a results-based discussion. FD and Trickster should be treated the same throughout regardless of whether they won GSL or fell into Code B, unless the "contract" stipulated incentives or had clauses to protect against this (and seeing how there seems to be no written contract, this doesn't hold).
"Decided to enforce the part of the contract that included practice"
You are just making up bs now, what part of the contract stipulated practice time? You're trying to support a position that has no merit unless a written contract allowed for it. Which in this case isn't true.
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well we cant really say anything till we know what the contracts said
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EPT
