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On August 04 2011 22:23 pdd wrote:
It's the same with any other job. You're paid to do your work, and if you can't do it within the normal 8-9 hour working day, then you have to do an overtime. Otherwise, you're gone.
I'm running in circles here....I don't think you can punish any player for "merely" staying in code S. That's already showing great results, considering the hard competition. I mean, just look how many top-top-players even dropped to Code A, let alone up/down at least once?
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If I'm your fucking coach and I tell you to do something. You fucking do it. No exceptions or else I bench you. I look for team players. Not individuals. If they cannot adapt you send them down along with their payroll.
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I think Lee has shown himself to be an explosive personality, emotional and prone to over-reaction. This is only more evidence to that fact. There has to be something going on with Lee and TSL for players (who only want to play the game) to be forced to engage in drama that only distracts from their craft.
My hypothesis is that Lee is an overbearing ruler of house TSL and the players can only put up with so much. Working with, or for, people with poor leadership skills (which I suspect Lee is one) creates an environment of resentment. I am not surprised there are issues if this is the case.
I am proud that FD and Tester have decided to stand their ground and not let the egomaniac Lee get away with abusing them. Gratz to Puma as well for having the strength to make a difficult decision.
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On August 04 2011 22:25 StarStruck wrote:
If I'm your fucking coach and I tell you to do something. You fucking do it. No exceptions or else I bench you. I look for team players. Not individuals. If they cannot adapt you send them down along with their payroll.
This is a terrible leadership strategy. It may work on football players or soldiers, but it has no place with the introverted gamer society. In short, you can't abuse nerds, they're too smart.
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On August 04 2011 22:24 Telcontar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 22:16 sleepingdog wrote:On August 04 2011 22:14 Telcontar wrote:On August 04 2011 22:07 sleepingdog wrote:On August 04 2011 22:04 b_unnies wrote:On August 04 2011 22:03 sleepingdog wrote:On August 04 2011 21:59 b_unnies wrote:
1. If FD/Tester don't practice then they dont meet the terms of their contract. They don't deserve to get paid. Do you expect to get paid if you dont show up for work? Sry but no. They are paid to show good results, if they can achieve that by NOT practicing, so be it. At least Tester is still one of the most stable code S players, who cares if Hero, Yongwha, Sage and so on practice their heart out when they can't even get to code A. And I'm paid to show results at my job too, if I can get it done in 1 hour its fine, if I need 3 hours for it, well, tough crap but nobody will care. I just has to be done. but the exact point is that they havent shown any results...? Fruitdealer no, I agree there. Tester yes, as long as he is stable code S I think he has every right to do whatever he wants. I mean, look at how many pros try to even get to code A, let alone code S. Claiming that you are not satisfied with a code S player is just....weird. Though Code S status alone might be satisfactory, you need players capable and threatening to win titles to attract sponsors and fans. If you're highest earning players aren't pushing themselves to do that, then it just isn't worth it to accomodate them. It only causes friction within the team and could negatively affect the team morale. I'm not saying Coach Lee did the right thing by refusing keep his promise (and contracts?) and even lying to them, but you can understand why he did it. The problem is, that they didn't "stop" practicing, they joined the team intentionally, CLAIMING that they don't want the rigid ogs-practice-schedule. So you aquire players who state they don't want to practice hard and afterwards you fire them because they didn't practice hard? This just makes no sense...if I'm hired to work 30 hours a week, I can't possibly get fired because I refuse to work 40 hours. Yeah, but the conditions on which they joined with might have changed. TSL's response said something about the two players not showing interest in the rebuilding process which most likely meant stricter practice hours and tigher routines. Now, if their initial contracts (if they had them) specifically had clauses about what kind of practice they were allowed to get away with, I can understand perfectly where their grievance comes from. However, if there were no contracts or the contracts didn't mention anything about practice hours, I would say that they could've been more accomodating to the change. It's still all speculation though without knowing the full details.
.. and they left. Which is fine. You aren't happy with the coaching or the coach is unhappy with you that is the course of action. There was no initial contract, so everything is verbatim. In other words, you cannot act upon it. We're getting two different stories and the Korean teams are only now locking their players into contracts. Oh the irony!
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whoaa ..
It seems pretty rough time for TSL. Puma/EG thing and now this? EG might not approached Puma properly, but Puma wanting to leave TSL is a different issue. It may that something was not right with how Coach Lee managing TSL. He might be a good coach, but managing and running a team is a whole different issue.
However, I'm hoping that this will end well for all the parties involved. Only time will tell ..
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thank god that eg was able to save puma from this trainwreck of a team
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On August 04 2011 22:25 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 22:23 pdd wrote:
It's the same with any other job. You're paid to do your work, and if you can't do it within the normal 8-9 hour working day, then you have to do an overtime. Otherwise, you're gone. I'm running in circles here....I don't think you can punish any player for "merely" staying in code S. That's already showing great results, considering the hard competition. I mean, just look how many top-top-players even dropped to Code A, let alone up/down at least once?
the standard isn't set by us, it is by coache and sponsors.
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On August 04 2011 22:20 brachester wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 22:17 RusHXceL wrote:
Now I don't blame PuMa for leaving TSL. Can we get a Mod in here and ban all those kids that brinign up this EG shit?
Really how about mods ban you for bringing the word EG.
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On August 04 2011 22:29 RusHXceL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 22:20 brachester wrote:On August 04 2011 22:17 RusHXceL wrote:
Now I don't blame PuMa for leaving TSL. Can we get a Mod in here and ban all those kids that brinign up this EG shit? Really how about mods ban you for bringing the word EG.
Your point sir?
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On August 04 2011 22:25 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 22:23 pdd wrote:
It's the same with any other job. You're paid to do your work, and if you can't do it within the normal 8-9 hour working day, then you have to do an overtime. Otherwise, you're gone. I'm running in circles here....I don't think you can punish any player for "merely" staying in code S. That's already showing great results, considering the hard competition. I mean, just look how many top-top-players even dropped to Code A, let alone up/down at least once?
Hmm, you do have a point. But I guess it's also a matter of the attitude, and whether FD and Trickster were actually achieving their best.
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So...what is the actual effect of leaving the Player's Association? I'm just curious...because at the end of the article it says that it has no bearing on them entering leagues.
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i just think it was funny how a few weeks ago everyone thought Mr. Lee was a saint.
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Thank you OP for posting this article. It definitely was an interesting read.
I always thought Fruitdealer and Tester left on slightly skewed terms, but TSL understood.
I jumped back to another article and reread this section.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=246368
Any final words?
First of all, I would like to apologize to FruitDealer and Tester for not fulfilling what I’ve promised to do. Despite our differences, I really hope that they do well in their respective teams.
I never suspected there was an underlining problem. I guess Lee did not want to bring to light a problem that undermined the strength of the team.
Even with all the problems FruitDealer and Tester may have caused I don't think it was wise to withhold their wages. He should have just paid them what was owed and walked away, focus on the future and work on the team. There are very very few circumstances where you have the right to withhold wages.
Can anyone tell me what the overall consequences are going to be for TSL now? Will their players be rejected or banned from certain tournaments?
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On August 04 2011 22:32 wacksteven wrote:
So...what is the actual effect of leaving the Player's Association? I'm just curious...because at the end of the article it says that it has no bearing on them entering leagues.
TSL leaving the organization doesn't affect them but the whole incidents does lower their reputation a little bit.
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This is unfortunate and sad for korean SC2, it's never pretty when an argument is judged by the public opinion..
2 points:
-Coach Lee is not a saint
-EG is not that evil
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On August 04 2011 22:27 captive411 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 22:25 StarStruck wrote:
If I'm your fucking coach and I tell you to do something. You fucking do it. No exceptions or else I bench you. I look for team players. Not individuals. If they cannot adapt you send them down along with their payroll. This is a terrible leadership strategy. It may work on football players or soldiers, but it has no place with the introverted gamer society. In short, you can't abuse nerds, they're too smart.
Are you implying that other athletes aren't?
lmao
You do what works as a coach. Each coach has their own philosophy, but at the end of the day it comes down to winning. How you use your assets is another thing. It isn't a terrible strategy at all. In fact, a lot of coaches use it across the board. Some of the best ones I know are real hard asses.
In other words, coach Lee decided it was time was in order to get results and FD/Tester decided they wanted none of it, so they left on their own accord just as they came in.
They weren't promised anything and at the time they joined they were all for helping support the team financially. Practice wise, I'll leave that to you guys to judge.
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On August 04 2011 22:34 brachester wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 22:32 wacksteven wrote:
So...what is the actual effect of leaving the Player's Association? I'm just curious...because at the end of the article it says that it has no bearing on them entering leagues. TSL leaving the organization doesn't affect them but the whole incidents does lower their reputation a little bit.
The Koreans operate on respect, honor, and reputation. To be expelled from the association is huge in Korea.
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On August 04 2011 22:26 captive411 wrote:
I think Lee has shown himself to be an explosive personality, emotional and prone to over-reaction. This is only more evidence to that fact. There has to be something going on with Lee and TSL for players (who only want to play the game) to be forced to engage in drama that only distracts from their craft.
My hypothesis is that Lee is an overbearing ruler of house TSL and the players can only put up with so much. Working with, or for, people with poor leadership skills (which I suspect Lee is one) creates an environment of resentment. I am not surprised there are issues if this is the case.
I am proud that FD and Tester have decided to stand their ground and not let the egomaniac Lee get away with abusing them. Gratz to Puma as well for having the strength to make a difficult decision.
That's a huge bunch of assumptions there, man. I could just as easily say that Lee was really trying to keep TSL together by any means possible but FD and Tester ruined the practice environment by not taking it seriously and affecting the other teammembers. Do i have any proof? No, but it's just as possible as your assumption about him being a "egomaniac".
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On August 04 2011 22:34 brachester wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 22:32 wacksteven wrote:
So...what is the actual effect of leaving the Player's Association? I'm just curious...because at the end of the article it says that it has no bearing on them entering leagues. TSL leaving the organization doesn't affect them but the whole incidents does lower their reputation a little bit.
Pretty much. It shows they have no say in anything and gives them no legitimacy. If other teams don't have to answer to them then why should TSL?
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EPT
