EPTI can only imagine you as a skinny-jean-wearing hipster riding a longboard to uni...
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Puma leaves TSL for EG - Page 237
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DueSs
United States765 Posts
I can only imagine you as a skinny-jean-wearing hipster riding a longboard to uni... User was warned for this post | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
On July 22 2011 06:36 MrDudeMan wrote: That was a quote by the TSL coach. It is in no way true as of yet because EG has not said a thing regarding this. With EGs history and Korean honor I am more inclined to believe him. But that is probably just me... | ||
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zev318
Canada4306 Posts
On July 22 2011 06:36 rbkl wrote: I think the point was that TSL didn't get an opportunity to make a counter offer. unless Puma accepted EG's offer while he was still in the US, i dont see how TSL didn't get to make a counter offer. but we'll find out at 7! (i hope) | ||
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Morrisson
289 Posts
No, they could not. Assuming your idea of a verbal contract based on trust is correct. The contract would be "You represent us at tournaments, we feed/shelter/train you". If this were the case puma said "I'm no longer playing for you and as such I am moving out". Thus end of contract. It would be different if Puma were to demand being allowed to stay in the team house. My idea is valid, but I have studied at least some law courses, which is not the case of everybody here. A contract is an agreement between 2 parties. THAT'S ALL. That's a contract. Puma accepted to play under the TSL tag while TSL provided lodging/training. I just assume that the TSL manager trusted Puma and that he followed what was THE USUAL TERMS IN THEIR INDUSTRY, even if not written ( i.e maybe a one year long contract, if you want to quit, talk to us , etc...). Exemple: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/contracts-101-make-legally-valid-30247.html Does a contract have to be in writing? In a few situations, contracts must be in writing to be valid Meaning that in most cases, they are are not written. Guess what, when you buy groceries, you never sign a contract, yet there is one between the seller and the buyer. Law 101....Morrisson did you fail to read the update???? The owner of TSL already said there was NO contract, I repeat NO contract for his time there at TSL. He also stated that its all based on trust and faith. There was no WRITTEN contract, god. That doesnt mean there was no contract..... | ||
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MrDudeMan
Canada973 Posts
On July 22 2011 06:38 Koshi wrote: With EGs history and Korean honor I am more inclined to believe him. But that is probably just me... I guess the phrase "Innocent until proven guilty" means nothing to you then. | ||
Porcelina
United Kingdom3249 Posts
We must conclude that first off, nothing illegal has happened. While we do not know all the facts, there is no way to conjecture that EG have done anything legally wrong. There are however two points that I think will always be contested. No amount of explaining from any of the three parties will quell any of the debates regarding a) Evil Geniuses continuance to be a polarising entity in the SC2 world and professional gaming world at large - and b) the interaction between different cultures between the east and the west, centering this time around the player/team interaction. I may be wrong, but given EG's history and their prominence for good or ill in the community, there will always be public reprisals to all of their endeavours that carry any kind of controversy. They are simply too mired in it at this point, and too many people have such strong convictions about the organisation for these things not to become huge TL threads. While stating that 'few people will not have a strong opinion on EG' might be too strong, this thread, along with others, indicate that there is a lot of opinion about almost everything they do. It is easy to understand why this is the case. EG, along with TL, are perhaps the most vocal in the SC2 community. And while TL are indeed a professional team, they have also become a community effort and they are not only a team of professional SC2 players, the whole feeling of the team is inherently tied to these fora and to the community. EG on the other hand has no such community; while their players might be vocal participants, the management and the feeling of the organisation is that of a top down structure. For me, I will not make any personal judgment on this. It is too early for me to tell, and while I have a lot of fears about what this means for an east/west integration, these are not founded in much other than conjecture (however intelligent) and speculation. On the other hand, there is this point. EG, through their ventures into creating a platform for themselves, have portrayed themselves as a transparent entity, as someone willing to fight the good fight. Their manager appears on a talk show subtitled 'e-sports, without the fluff'; yet they appear to be the epitome of fluff when it comes to explaining themselves whenever they become in controversy. And this, to large parts of the community, is why the PuMa debacle becomes very difficult to accept. I will not say that EG have done wrong by the community. But both the team and their supporters must accept that while they might not become unpopular in general, the people that they do become unpopular with will be very vocal in their criticism. Is all the criticism well founded? Is it all reasonable? No. However, it is incredibly ingratiating to hear them respond to the criticism that is; or perhaps rather always respond to unreasonable criticism and brush off legitimate questions under that guise, then applaud themselves on their own transparency, their own good work. All the while participating in e-sports, without the fluff. And thus, we get threads like these. In most posts, not much is actually debated or even posited. But it almost feels like pure inevitability that when the moment comes and drama is unveiled, EG is in the middle of it. And just like that happens in the microcosm of the player scene, IdrA gains hundreds of fans and detractors at the same time, it happens in the macrocosm of the team side of things. PuMa to EG will gain them more fans if only for the results, the potential of the players. But people will be annoyed; because EG gets more public attention already being polarising, because people do not want that polarising entity to be the one dealing with Korea from a western side, because they can hardly do anything that has even the potential to be controversial without igniting very strong feelings in this community. Is it all good? Definitely not. Is it all bad? Probably not, and definitely not as far as EG is concerned. Someone above me said they hoped SirScoots would come out and basically say 'Fuck it, this is great for us, we do not need to answer to any of you'. Well that would be good in the sense that it would be his prerogative and that it might cause the least backlash in the long term. Given that any of the backlash it would actually create might be drama on the forums, I am sure that it would be something EG would easily live with. But it might also be good because so much, at least for me personally, of the annoyance, frustration and ill-feeling towards EG is that they involve themselves in ways that posture the opposite of their actions. It is tiring and it would be refreshing to just enjoy them for what they are. Just as it was easy to enjoy iNcontroL as a funny guy and a strong SC2 player on SotG, it was annoying to have to try to take him seriously as a spokesperson of the game and the community itself. And it would be nice to enjoy EG as a strong SC2 team, as outspoken and brash without having to try to taking them seriously as taking a stance for growing the professional gaming scene with transparency and with any claims to altruism when it comes to their motives. No fluff would be infinitely easier to accept, to enjoy and to appreciate if it would only be no fluff. And now I will appreciate the fact that this thread is growing far too fast for most people to pay attention to my post. But I guess it was more for my own personal sense of saying what I wanted to say instead of having anyone listen. Good luck to PuMa, to TSL players and their coach and to EG. I sincerely hope this works out well in the long run for all parties and that fans of the game will see good things come of this. | ||
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mango_destroyer
Canada3914 Posts
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Fionn
United States23455 Posts
I'm interested in who else EG talked to before, Korean-wise, in trying to poach them. Hopefully that comes up on WoC. | ||
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farvacola
United States18828 Posts
On July 22 2011 06:35 Koshi wrote: EG claims that Puma approached them first regarding joining their team, but this is not true. As I know it, EG's owner contacted Puma first. Not only Puma, but other Korean players." And the first OP was obvious enough. Come on... Sounds like someone doesn't know how to listen to two sides of an issue...... | ||
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gosuMalicE
Canada676 Posts
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gurrpp
United States437 Posts
On July 22 2011 06:33 Koshi wrote: Just so lame that again something controversial happens and that once again EG is the center of it and is lying about it. Or how they call it "not telling the whole story". Incontrol makes a problem of TB changing scenes to make money, now his manager acquires a top player on the most unethical way possible. ---> Incontrol telling on every podcast how EG is the best business in the world and that they did nothing wrong. Pathetic. How are they lying about it? They haven't even really said anything yet, so how could they have lied about it? Before you go spouting shit at least wait until you hear EG's response on WoC. I know esports drama is intense, but you can wait an hour or so before coming to a conclusion about EGs business practices. | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
Let's wait for more information. TSL has spoken, now let EG. Shut up and wait. | ||
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DBOWNIZZ
United States66 Posts
The owner of TSL stated, THERE ARE NO CONTRACTS, he didnt say there are contracts by mouth no contract by any means...He said THERE ARE NO CONTRACTS..... | ||
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thorwashere
8 Posts
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
Good job EG. 100% support. I hope more foreign teams acquire koreans. | ||
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TheYellowOne
United States97 Posts
i dont always make no sense and think im relevant enough to force my players to leave a show even tho the player would have been a nobody without the show. but when i do i make sure to screw over foreign teams while im at it and show no dignity or respect for others User was warned for this post | ||
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TheButtonmen
Canada1401 Posts
On July 22 2011 06:39 Morrisson wrote: There was no WRITTEN contract, god. That doesnt mean there was no contract..... No he flat out says there was no contract. | ||
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JayPower
Netherlands171 Posts
On July 22 2011 06:39 Morrisson wrote: My idea is valid, but I have studied at least some law courses, which is not the case of everybody here. A contract is an agreement between 2 parties. THAT'S ALL. That's a contract. Puma accepted to play under the TSL tag while TSL provided lodging/training. I just assume that the TSL manager trusted Puma and that he followed what was THE USUAL TERMS IN THEIR INDUSTRY, even if not written ( i.e maybe a one year long contract, if you want to quit, talk to us , etc...). Exemple: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/contracts-101-make-legally-valid-30247.html Meaning that in most cases, they are are not written. Guess what, when you buy groceries, you never sign a contract, yet there is one between the seller and the buyer. Law 101.... There was no WRITTEN contract, god. That doesnt mean there was no contract..... [QUOTE]On July 21 2011 15:00 Milkis wrote: Update: TSL Coach Lee Woon Jae explains his stance Coach Lee Woon Jae of TSL talked with TeamLiquid, trying to clear up some of the misunderstandings while explaining the situation from his point of view: [quote]"It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts. Because of many similar occurances [to Puma's case], we plan to make contracts mandatory. [/QUOTE] Do you see it now? The coach(es) had "trust" and "faith" instead of contracts? He didnt say there were contracts, written or not, because there wasn't, they had "trust" and "faith" that Puma wouldnt leave. | ||
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Dezire
Netherlands640 Posts
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Ygz
England370 Posts
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