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Puma leaves TSL for EG - Page 239

Forum Index > SC2 General
7189 CommentsPost a Reply
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DBOWNIZZ
Profile Joined April 2011
United States66 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-21 22:00:13
July 21 2011 21:51 GMT
#4761
" Aaaannnd see you next time"
Morrisson
Profile Joined May 2011
289 Posts
July 21 2011 21:52 GMT
#4762
On July 22 2011 06:50 DBOWNIZZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
What do you think a contract is dude????????????

The owner of TSL stated, THERE ARE NO CONTRACTS, he didnt say there are contracts by mouth no contract by any means...He said THERE ARE NO CONTRACTS.....


No he flat out says there was no contract.


Please, read before saying this... In law, a contract does not even need to be said explicitely to exist....


You obv. don't read anything cause if you read the topic thr TSL coach already explains that they don't use verbal contracts, verbal agreements, promise contracts or any other kind of contracts at all.
THEY USE TRUST AND FAITH.

I read they did not use written contract. but verbal agreement? Please show me where the coach say this. Is that is the case, then I apologize
las91
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States5080 Posts
July 21 2011 21:52 GMT
#4763
In the business world, this kind of behavior from EG is really quite standard from the American point of view. In the NFL and NBA for example, players are allowed to make those kinds of decisions to an extent, but because they are contracted eventually managements have to contact each other to change anything permanently.

The fact that TSL was not using contracts to keep their players with thee team is a shortsighted and somewhat unintelligent move, as contracts keep people from fucking each other over on both ends.

Just my two cents.
In Inca we trust
MrDudeMan
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada973 Posts
July 21 2011 21:53 GMT
#4764
On July 22 2011 06:49 Morrisson wrote:


Just for you

Show nested quote +
Most contracts only need to contain two elements to be legally valid:
All parties must be in agreement (after an offer has been made by one party and accepted by the other).Something of value must be exchanged -- such as cash, services, or goods (or a promise to exchange such an item) -- for something else of value.


If I come to you and say

" Hey, wanna buy this, 20 buck"
"Sure"

We just had a contract. Never written, never stated, but here. That is just my point.


While a written contract is not specifically required, it is always recommended because getting into fights based on your word against someone elses word often does not end well. This is why when you purchase something from a store, you will most likely obtain a receipt and they will also obtain a receipt. This receipt is the proof of purchase, thus validating this non written contract that exists.
BackSideAttack
Profile Joined December 2010
1103 Posts
July 21 2011 21:53 GMT
#4765
On July 22 2011 06:46 Hardigan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 06:43 Koshi wrote:
On July 22 2011 06:39 MrDudeMan wrote:
On July 22 2011 06:38 Koshi wrote:

With EGs history and Korean honor I am more inclined to believe him.

But that is probably just me...


I guess the phrase "Innocent until proven guilty" means nothing to you then.

Dude, there is nothing to be proven here. If I go outside my home and punch somebody in the face, and nobody sees it. Then I can't be proven guilty, however, people are allowed to believe the victim.

And once again, EG did nothing wrong legally. But it is a dickmove. Korea will now bind all their players. Problem solved. Move along.

why is everybody saying it is a dick move??? A organisation contacting a freelancer, nothing wrong with it


Because they failed to go through the proper channels first. When you do international business it's common to get an extensive briefing on the cultural idiosyncrasies of a particular region before doing business with them. This is the equivalent of going to Japan and refusing a gift when presented with one. As any business school would teach you, what EG did in contacting the player first instead of negotiating/informing the team is extremely rude and disrespectful to the Korean way. Only negative things can follow through from this pickup. Once sc2 gets some sort of Kepsa like governing body, EG will most likely become blacklisted.
NightAngel
Profile Joined June 2010
United States144 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-21 21:54:11
July 21 2011 21:53 GMT
#4766
On July 22 2011 06:11 StyLeD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 06:08 QTIP. wrote:
On July 22 2011 06:03 nihlon wrote:
On July 22 2011 06:01 f0ol wrote:
He is being a drama queen in a sense. His whole argument is based around respect instead of real contractual obligations. His original statement makes it seem as if Puma was a contracted player, which we later found out he isn't. Now he is making claims that EG has stated that Puma approached them and that they are lying. When in fact, EG has not said a thing about this issue other then the fact that machine is playing DoW.


This is how I read this:
"Why are you being a drama queen for losing your girlfriend. Your girl friend doesn't have to respect you, even though you help build her confidence. Its not like you put a ring on it. Sorry bro, your girl hit on me first. Lets face it, I have money, you don't, imma take her around the world (wink)" - EG to TSL

So, TSL = Dumped, Puma = Whore, EG = Rich Play Boy


In that scenario TSL should be pissed at Puma, not EG.


But TSL Loves Puma, and wants what's best for Puma. (releasing him at his wish). TSL should be pissed at EG for convincing him to leave behind TSL's back.


I think TSL did respect Puma's decision, but afaik Puma came to the manager one day, said he'd be leaving, and left. There was nothing TSL could do but "release" him.


And there is NOTHING wrong with that.
[QUOTE][B]On August 05 2011 05:06 Beerdrinker wrote:[/B] TSL needs to be more sensitive about doing business in korea, they need to be respectful of the culture, their contracts and verbal obligations[/QUOTE]
chasfrank
Profile Joined March 2010
Gambia59 Posts
July 21 2011 21:54 GMT
#4767
On July 22 2011 06:46 Hardigan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 06:43 Koshi wrote:
On July 22 2011 06:39 MrDudeMan wrote:
On July 22 2011 06:38 Koshi wrote:

With EGs history and Korean honor I am more inclined to believe him.

But that is probably just me...


I guess the phrase "Innocent until proven guilty" means nothing to you then.

Dude, there is nothing to be proven here. If I go outside my home and punch somebody in the face, and nobody sees it. Then I can't be proven guilty, however, people are allowed to believe the victim.

And once again, EG did nothing wrong legally. But it is a dickmove. Korea will now bind all their players. Problem solved. Move along.

why is everybody saying it is a dick move??? A organisation contacting a freelancer, nothing wrong with it


That is quite a stretch.
Morrisson
Profile Joined May 2011
289 Posts
July 21 2011 21:54 GMT
#4768
On July 22 2011 06:53 MrDudeMan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 06:49 Morrisson wrote:


Just for you

Most contracts only need to contain two elements to be legally valid:
All parties must be in agreement (after an offer has been made by one party and accepted by the other).Something of value must be exchanged -- such as cash, services, or goods (or a promise to exchange such an item) -- for something else of value.


If I come to you and say

" Hey, wanna buy this, 20 buck"
"Sure"

We just had a contract. Never written, never stated, but here. That is just my point.


While a written contract is not specifically required, it is always recommended because getting into fights based on your word against someone elses word often does not end well. This is why when you purchase something from a store, you will most likely obtain a receipt and they will also obtain a receipt. This receipt is the proof of purchase, thus validating this non written contract that exists.


I agree. I think TSL got very careless.
Grimsong
Profile Joined August 2010
United States252 Posts
July 21 2011 21:54 GMT
#4769
In regards to non written contracts, read this - From WIKIPEDIA

There is a presumption for commercial agreements that parties intend to be legally bound (unless the parties expressly state that they do not want to be bound, like in heads of agreement). On the other hand, many kinds of domestic and social agreements are unenforceable on the basis of public policy, for instance between children and parents. One early example is found in Balfour v. Balfour.[24] Using contract-like terms, Mr. Balfour had agreed to give his wife £30 a month as maintenance while he was living in Ceylon (Sri Lanka). Once he left, they separated and Mr. Balfour stopped payments. Mrs. Balfour brought an action to enforce the payments. At the Court of Appeal, the Court held that there was no enforceable agreement as there was not enough evidence to suggest that they were intending to be legally bound by the promise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract#Intention_to_be_legally_bound
xBillehx
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States1289 Posts
July 21 2011 21:55 GMT
#4770
People keep saying Puma wasn't contracted but he was definitely still on the team. Everyone knew he was part of TSL, EG knew he was part of TSL when they poached him. Whether it's right or wrong I don't understand people trying to argue that Puma was an actual free agent, he wasn't. There was an agreement with TSL/Puma and regardless of whether or not a legal contract existed, he was still part of TSL when EG approached him, not a free agent representing TSL out of good will. I won't argue legality of it, because it was definitely legal since no contract existed, but will people please stop addressing the situation as EG approaching a free agent, they obviously approached someone they knew was affiliated with a team.

With that said I'm holding further judgement until after WoC tonight.
Taengoo ♥
Morrisson
Profile Joined May 2011
289 Posts
July 21 2011 21:56 GMT
#4771
On July 22 2011 06:54 Grimsong wrote:
In regards to non written contracts, read this - From WIKIPEDIA

There is a presumption for commercial agreements that parties intend to be legally bound (unless the parties expressly state that they do not want to be bound, like in heads of agreement). On the other hand, many kinds of domestic and social agreements are unenforceable on the basis of public policy, for instance between children and parents. One early example is found in Balfour v. Balfour.[24] Using contract-like terms, Mr. Balfour had agreed to give his wife £30 a month as maintenance while he was living in Ceylon (Sri Lanka). Once he left, they separated and Mr. Balfour stopped payments. Mrs. Balfour brought an action to enforce the payments. At the Court of Appeal, the Court held that there was no enforceable agreement as there was not enough evidence to suggest that they were intending to be legally bound by the promise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract#Intention_to_be_legally_bound

Yes it's exactly what I am saying... and it's a matter of evidence. I just believe there is enought evidence. ( tag name, living in the dorms, travel expense probably, etc...)
madrod
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia66 Posts
July 21 2011 21:56 GMT
#4772
i love how most whingers in this thread would most likely give up their current job for better conditions, pay, or a nice foriegn location perhaps. people can be so hypocritical. that being said, its great to see EG pick up a new player, all the best to EG and Puma!!
Serpico
Profile Joined May 2010
4285 Posts
July 21 2011 21:56 GMT
#4773
On July 22 2011 06:55 xBillehx wrote:
People keep saying Puma wasn't contracted but he was definitely still on the team. Everyone knew he was part of TSL, EG knew he was part of TSL when they poached him. Whether it's right or wrong I don't understand people trying to argue that Puma was an actual free agent, he wasn't. There was an agreement with TSL/Puma and regardless of whether or not a legal contract existed, he was still part of TSL when EG approached him, not a free agent representing TSL out of good will. I won't argue legality of it, because it was definitely legal since no contract existed, but will people please stop addressing the situation as EG approaching a free agent, they obviously approached someone they knew was affiliated with a team.

With that said I'm holding further judgement until after WoC tonight.

Yes he was, he was agreeing to represent TSL only in principle and if they wanted him that badly they would put money down to secure his services as a player. It makes it look like you only want him there to be a temp player to help you out while he trains and you both mutually benefit until he moves on.
zev318
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada4306 Posts
July 21 2011 21:56 GMT
#4774
On July 22 2011 06:51 Fionn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 06:47 zev318 wrote:
i wonder how many other team managers are like damn why didnt we make an offer to all these contract-less koreans....

EG, just ahead of the game.


Most teams wouldn't do something this unethical. It also pretty much blacklists EG in Korea and makes their whole team look bad to Korean players. It's been said that EG has tried to poach other Koreans, but Puma is the only one to turn their back on his team. From tweets from players like Clide and FruitDealer, they don't respect Puma's decision.

If I'm MVP, I send a bodyguard with DongRaeGu and punch anyone in the face who tries to ask if they want to join their team.


what's unethical about asking if a player would like to join ur team when they dont even have a contract w their team?

if im MVP, i just fucking sign DRG to a contract, problem solved. save myself the money to hire a bodyguard and flying him over to MLG with DRG.

fishjie
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1519 Posts
July 21 2011 21:58 GMT
#4775
Is Puma moving to America? If so he's going to get a lot worse, as others have pointed out. His only legit practice partner would be Idra, and that guy's overrated anyway. Unless they plan on transporting lots of good Korean players over to America, its just not going to work out for Puma.
dacthehork
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States2000 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-21 22:00:15
July 21 2011 21:58 GMT
#4776
In HoN there was a tournament in singapore. ICE won 3000 dollars and the money was sent to the captain. A player had paid out of his own pocket 1200 dollars to fly in and play last moment. The captain pocketed all the money and never paid anyone (killing the team). There was no contract up for them so no real legal action took place.

Would you still support that player's actions? No it's despicable. The same thing is when a team trains you for 10 months and treats you pretty well to just say.. welp I'm leaving for a better deal now that I won NASL.

Both are pretty "wrong" in terms of most ethics, in terms of paying back TSL (getting a transfer fee paid at least) or paying back a player that payed 1200 of his own money to go. Neither where illegal. If you think its cool beans and "good people" that do everything possible regardless of who it fucks over to get ahead fine. But still most people will view EG negatively for this type of shit (they even went after contracted players).

Either way its pretty obvious koreans will be under tight contracts before they roll into MLG

Must really suck for coaches/players that helped puma to get better and fed/housed him for 10 months. I'm not saying its bad to leave for EG, but there are better ways of going about it than screwing people over.
Warturtle - DOTA 2 is KING
Grimsong
Profile Joined August 2010
United States252 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-21 21:59:21
July 21 2011 21:58 GMT
#4777
On July 22 2011 06:56 Morrisson wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 06:54 Grimsong wrote:
In regards to non written contracts, read this - From WIKIPEDIA

There is a presumption for commercial agreements that parties intend to be legally bound (unless the parties expressly state that they do not want to be bound, like in heads of agreement). On the other hand, many kinds of domestic and social agreements are unenforceable on the basis of public policy, for instance between children and parents. One early example is found in Balfour v. Balfour.[24] Using contract-like terms, Mr. Balfour had agreed to give his wife £30 a month as maintenance while he was living in Ceylon (Sri Lanka). Once he left, they separated and Mr. Balfour stopped payments. Mrs. Balfour brought an action to enforce the payments. At the Court of Appeal, the Court held that there was no enforceable agreement as there was not enough evidence to suggest that they were intending to be legally bound by the promise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract#Intention_to_be_legally_bound

Yes it's exactly what I am saying... and it's a matter of evidence. I just believe there is enought evidence. ( tag name, living in the dorms, travel expense probably, etc...)


There's evidence they were working together. Just like there's evidence I'm helping my friend by buying him lunch. He isn't contactually, legally, bound to buy me lunch in return. Doesn't say it had to be exclusive or for any extent of time.
Hoodlum
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States350 Posts
July 21 2011 21:58 GMT
#4778
I can't believe the flame on TL if you were working a job and another job made you a better off would job 2 be unethical? I mean loyalty is important but thats a persons decision in its own... If anyone is "unethical" I would say it's Puma although thats not my personal opinion. I would have taken the better offer myself... The fact that he went to his coach and said "Dude here is the headsup" is more then what most would do... I love puma and EG is an excellent team so good for both... xD
xO gaming owner
Tryxtira
Profile Joined November 2010
Sweden572 Posts
July 21 2011 21:59 GMT
#4779
This seems to actually somewhat be due to the collision of two cultures. However, if it has happened the way the TSL-crew says it has, it is extremely disrespectfully done by EG. I doubt we've seen an end to this though.

On the other hand, what an amazing sign by EG. I wonder where Puma will live and practice and who will live there with him! :D
VillageBC
Profile Joined January 2011
322 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-21 22:02:28
July 21 2011 21:59 GMT
#4780
EG very obviously (to me anyway) needed to bolster their team to continue to compete with the likes of Liquid, fnatic, dignitas, fxo, etcetera. They were falling behind the talent curve.

My take on this is it probably went like this. EG went to NASL to talk to players, make it known they were recruiting and see who might be interested in joining them or had contracts coming up. There is no governing body restricting player contact so I don't see a big deal with this move. Puma upon hearing (or being approached directly) went to EG to show his interest and see what kind of deal they might offer him. Likely to me, that Puma gave TSL the chance to match or beat the offer and that TSL was unable/unwilling to do so.

I would be dollars to cents that is probably a closer representation of the truth of what happened. Nothing extreme on the one side or other.
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