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On July 22 2011 07:04 thedz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:02 BackSideAttack wrote:
What EG did is comparable to Commodore Perry's forced opening of the Japanese borders in 1854. But instead of using superior firearms and ships, EG used superior funding and other perks. No one in Japan at the time expected an American captain to randomly show up on Japanese soil one day, just as no one in Korea expected an EG manager to be disrespectful enough to approach Korean players without contacting the proper management first. Uh, you win the award for most silly analogy in the thread. As someone who has dealt with Koreans in Korea, with Japanese in Japan and with Chinese in China, I can assure you that while there are certainly cultural idiosyncrasies in every country, when it comes down to it, businesses still operate by writ of contract and formal written agreements.
Yet the entire Korean sc2 scene has operated fine so far without contracts. If everyone respects the way things are run then it's okay. It's only when foreign bodies start interfering do you have problems.
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Coach Lee knows he cannot hold down Puma, and that there are no laws binding him to TSL, he's just disappointed in the way EG did this transaction.
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On July 22 2011 06:49 Morrisson wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 06:46 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 06:44 Morrisson wrote:What do you think a contract is dude????????????
The owner of TSL stated, THERE ARE NO CONTRACTS, he didnt say there are contracts by mouth no contract by any means...He said THERE ARE NO CONTRACTS..... No he flat out says there was no contract. Please, read before saying this... In law, a contract does not even need to be said explicitely to exist.... ....You're pulling shit out of your ass at this point, yes a contract does need to be explicitly stated that's pretty obvious, you can't just claim to be in a contract with someone because you feel like it. Also the coach flatout said that there were no contracts that they instead prefered to not sign their players. Just for you Show nested quote +Most contracts only need to contain two elements to be legally valid:
All parties must be in agreement (after an offer has been made by one party and accepted by the other).Something of value must be exchanged -- such as cash, services, or goods (or a promise to exchange such an item) -- for something else of value. If I come to you and say " Hey, wanna buy this, 20 buck" "Sure" We just had a contract. Never written, never stated, but here. That is just my point.
In this world nothing counts unless it is written down. This is quite unfortunate but that is how it is in the legal world.
Unless in court they can prove you both agreed without a contract. Also seems kind of funny how Fruitdealer and Trickster did this and joined startail but they don't complain because its a korean team?
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On July 22 2011 06:39 Morrisson wrote:Show nested quote +No, they could not. Assuming your idea of a verbal contract based on trust is correct. The contract would be "You represent us at tournaments, we feed/shelter/train you". If this were the case puma said "I'm no longer playing for you and as such I am moving out". Thus end of contract. It would be different if Puma were to demand being allowed to stay in the team house. My idea is valid, but I have studied at least some law courses, which is not the case of everybody here. A contract is an agreement between 2 parties. THAT'S ALL. That's a contract. Puma accepted to play under the TSL tag while TSL provided lodging/training. I just assume that the TSL manager trusted Puma and that he followed what was THE USUAL TERMS IN THEIR INDUSTRY, even if not written ( i.e maybe a one year long contract, if you want to quit, talk to us , etc...). Exemple: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/contracts-101-make-legally-valid-30247.htmlShow nested quote +Does a contract have to be in writing? In a few situations, contracts must be in writing to be valid Meaning that in most cases, they are are not written. Guess what, when you buy groceries, you never sign a contract, yet there is one between the seller and the buyer. Law 101.... Show nested quote +Morrisson did you fail to read the update????
The owner of TSL already said there was NO contract, I repeat NO contract for his time there at TSL.
He also stated that its all based on trust and faith. There was no WRITTEN contract, god. That doesnt mean there was no contract.....
LOL! Yes it does! This is business, what in the world are you talking about? SC2 is a globalized market, the honor system won't work anymore!
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On July 22 2011 07:07 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:04 thedz wrote:On July 22 2011 07:02 BackSideAttack wrote:
What EG did is comparable to Commodore Perry's forced opening of the Japanese borders in 1854. But instead of using superior firearms and ships, EG used superior funding and other perks. No one in Japan at the time expected an American captain to randomly show up on Japanese soil one day, just as no one in Korea expected an EG manager to be disrespectful enough to approach Korean players without contacting the proper management first. Uh, you win the award for most silly analogy in the thread. As someone who has dealt with Koreans in Korea, with Japanese in Japan and with Chinese in China, I can assure you that while there are certainly cultural idiosyncrasies in every country, when it comes down to it, businesses still operate by writ of contract and formal written agreements. Yet the entire Korean sc2 scene has operated fine so far without contracts. If everyone respects the way things are run then it's okay. It's only when foreign bodies start interfering do you have problems.
And the Korean BW scene operates *with* contracts. It's a sign of immaturity that the SC2 scene apparently does not. This is not because of Korean culture, or some weird foreign devil ingression thing into the Korean scene. Koreans are obviously capable of conducting business properly with contracts when looking at Brood War.
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On July 22 2011 07:02 Yew wrote:
I lost a lot of respect for Puma doing this. Why abandon your team like that, especially for some mediocre foreign team lol?
Hes not the only one to leave. A few of TSL's biggest names have left in recent weeks. Dont think its as simple as "Why would you abandon your team"
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On July 22 2011 07:07 Morrisson wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:06 Serpico wrote:On July 22 2011 07:03 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 22 2011 06:56 Serpico wrote:On July 22 2011 06:55 xBillehx wrote:
People keep saying Puma wasn't contracted but he was definitely still on the team. Everyone knew he was part of TSL, EG knew he was part of TSL when they poached him. Whether it's right or wrong I don't understand people trying to argue that Puma was an actual free agent, he wasn't. There was an agreement with TSL/Puma and regardless of whether or not a legal contract existed, he was still part of TSL when EG approached him, not a free agent representing TSL out of good will. I won't argue legality of it, because it was definitely legal since no contract existed, but will people please stop addressing the situation as EG approaching a free agent, they obviously approached someone they knew was affiliated with a team.
With that said I'm holding further judgement until after WoC tonight. Yes he was, he was agreeing to represent TSL only in principle and if they wanted him that badly they would put money down to secure his services as a player. It makes it look like you only want him there to be a temp player to help you out while he trains and you both mutually benefit until he moves on. wow...TSL was the the FIRST Korean sc2 team to pay their players SALARIES. Puma was getting a SALARY while he was on the team. Even without a written contract he was still being PAID. And if you go without a contract that becomes irrelevant because you've put nothing into writing. No it doesnt....
Yes it does...because EG can just offer more and there's no contract that has to be bought out/taken care of in any way.
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On July 22 2011 07:07 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:04 thedz wrote:On July 22 2011 07:02 BackSideAttack wrote:
What EG did is comparable to Commodore Perry's forced opening of the Japanese borders in 1854. But instead of using superior firearms and ships, EG used superior funding and other perks. No one in Japan at the time expected an American captain to randomly show up on Japanese soil one day, just as no one in Korea expected an EG manager to be disrespectful enough to approach Korean players without contacting the proper management first. Uh, you win the award for most silly analogy in the thread. As someone who has dealt with Koreans in Korea, with Japanese in Japan and with Chinese in China, I can assure you that while there are certainly cultural idiosyncrasies in every country, when it comes down to it, businesses still operate by writ of contract and formal written agreements. Yet the entire Korean sc2 scene has operated fine so far without contracts. If everyone respects the way things are run then it's okay. It's only when foreign bodies start interfering do you have problems.
And yet, the Sc1 scene, which is arguably even more "Korean" then Sc2, revolves around the evil, Western notions of explicit contractual obligation and business deals. Your ethnocentric argument makes no sense.
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Korean members on the Jessica thread said "respect and honor" is a very important part of Korean culture. If this is true then we can expect most of Korea's TSL fans will now hate Puma/EG?
Now I wait for EG releases their side of the story. This will be interesting.
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United States23455 Posts
On July 22 2011 07:10 Angelbelow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:02 Yew wrote:
I lost a lot of respect for Puma doing this. Why abandon your team like that, especially for some mediocre foreign team lol? Hes not the only one to leave. A few of TSL's biggest names have left in recent weeks. Dont think its as simple as "Why would you abandon your team"
Even FruitDealer, who left TSL, tweeted "big headed Puma." So whatever happened, it probably isn't comparable to Rain, FD and Tester leaving.
Korean members on the Jessica thread said "respect and honor" is a very important part of Korean culture. If this is true then we can expect most of Korea's TSL fans will now hate EG?
Even if this was totally ethical, they talked to Coach Lee, and even paid for Puma, Korean TSL fans would still hate EG. Why? Because they just stole TSL's ace in the middle of the GSTL.
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On July 22 2011 07:11 Fionn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:10 Angelbelow wrote:On July 22 2011 07:02 Yew wrote:
I lost a lot of respect for Puma doing this. Why abandon your team like that, especially for some mediocre foreign team lol? Hes not the only one to leave. A few of TSL's biggest names have left in recent weeks. Dont think its as simple as "Why would you abandon your team" Even FruitDealer, who left TSL, tweeted "big headed Puma." So whatever happened, it probably isn't comparable to Rain, FD and Tester leaving.
Yeah, it feels like they left because they preferred something else, while Puma left because he wanted money.
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On July 22 2011 07:05 Dr.Sin wrote:
Contracts are important because they protect the players and the organization they belong to. It creates a structure for people to work in and teams to interact with one another. On the player side, a contract provides security and guarantees and presents the conditions for which he must meet his obligations. On the company's side, it guarantees the company's most valuable assets, their people, and consequences for the loss of these assets.
Could EG have been discourteous? Possibly. We'll hear more about it tonight, many thanks to Wheat. However, being discourteous is certainly not something for us to get upset and start with ritual disembowelment over. Far worse things have been done and are routinely done and are happening right now. I mean come on, these kids playing SC2 put a lot on the line while living under crappy conditions for the faint hope that one in hundreds will get a reasonable return at some point. When you have a large team, it doesn't cost that much money to house and feed someone and give them a spot to use a computer. To use this argument is childish because you can't possibly seriously expect someone to build a life for themselves under these conditions. It is exploitative.
Re Puma, as the saying goes, if you like it, put a ring on it. The fact that Korean SC2 lacked any kind of structure like this is a sign of the immaturity of the industry. If SC2 wants to be serious, the teams must acknowledge that this is a business and comport themselves like it.
This is only true if the value of the contract is more than the cost of fighting for it. Generally players have zero recourse against their teams besides just finding a new team and moving on. Teams equally have little recourse as the value of any contract with any player (especially internationally) wouldn't be worth nearly the amount of money needed to justify spending tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees to get a player to honor it. That is even IF you could get a venue. Compelling a party outside the US to appear in a court in the US is practically impossible for civil cases.
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The extra addition from the coach should really help people understand the situation a bit more. Thats great how TL was able to contact him to get some more information. Curious as to why we haven't seen the EG psa yet.
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Oh sweet jesus this is epic. Now they have an epic terran, epic protoss, and epic zerg.
and an epic TASTELESS!!!!
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On July 22 2011 07:11 Fionn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:10 Angelbelow wrote:On July 22 2011 07:02 Yew wrote:
I lost a lot of respect for Puma doing this. Why abandon your team like that, especially for some mediocre foreign team lol? Hes not the only one to leave. A few of TSL's biggest names have left in recent weeks. Dont think its as simple as "Why would you abandon your team" Even FruitDealer, who left TSL, tweeted "big headed Puma." So whatever happened, it probably isn't comparable to Rain, FD and Tester leaving.
I don't understand how they don't say anything about Tester and Rain leaving and just joining other teams that seems kind of not respectable too. Seems like the same exact thing if you ask me.
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On July 22 2011 07:08 NightAngel wrote:
LOL! Yes it does! This is business, what in the world are you talking about? SC2 is a globalized market, the honor system won't work anymore!
As the old saying goes, 'a verbal contract is not worth the paper it's printed on.' (c) Sam Goldwyn
I agree the honor system won't work anymore, EG has proven this.
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On July 22 2011 07:12 Yew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:11 Fionn wrote:On July 22 2011 07:10 Angelbelow wrote:On July 22 2011 07:02 Yew wrote:
I lost a lot of respect for Puma doing this. Why abandon your team like that, especially for some mediocre foreign team lol? Hes not the only one to leave. A few of TSL's biggest names have left in recent weeks. Dont think its as simple as "Why would you abandon your team" Even FruitDealer, who left TSL, tweeted "big headed Puma." So whatever happened, it probably isn't comparable to Rain, FD and Tester leaving. Yeah, it feels like they left because they preferred something else, while Puma left because he wanted money.
that's not really different though. You prefer more money or you prefer a better team or a better environment, it's all the same because it's about how happy the player is for whatever reason.
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United States23455 Posts
On July 22 2011 07:12 sCfO20 wrote:
Oh sweet jesus this is epic. Now they have an epic terran, epic protoss, and epic zerg.
and an epic TASTELESS!!!!
Didn't Tasteless leave EG forever ago?
And who is their epic toss? Axslav?
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On July 22 2011 07:13 Fionn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:12 sCfO20 wrote:
Oh sweet jesus this is epic. Now they have an epic terran, epic protoss, and epic zerg.
and an epic TASTELESS!!!! Didn't Tasteless leave EG forever ago? And who is their epic toss? Axslav?
You didn't hear about EGMC?
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On July 22 2011 07:02 Yew wrote:
I lost a lot of respect for Puma doing this. Why abandon your team like that, especially for some mediocre foreign team lol?
Puma wants to play in foreign tournaments, so he joins a team which will support that endeavor. What's so wrong about that? He doesn't owe TSL his career.
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EPT
