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On July 22 2011 07:23 SuitGuy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:18 Dr.Sin wrote:
SultGuy: you're absolutely right. So what does it say about the game and the teams when they don't take serious steps to protect their most valuable assets (players)?
There are ways to ensure contracts are binding that don't involve the courts. If you have an international SC2 sports association that agrees to disallow players and teams that violate a given contract, it simplifies the entire process. Having a regulatory body provide a structure for players and teams to interact would prevent events such as these from causing needless drama. I'm saying that it doesn't say anything. That even if Puma did have a contract there is little TSL could do to force him to honor it anyway. If he wanted to play for EG he could. If he lives in Korea and oGs offers him more money and he takes that, EG will have no recourse. They could hope to sue him if he ever came to whatever state the contract states the the venue for court will take place if there is a dispute. Other than that they would be in the same boat as TSL. That is just the way it is at the moment. A regulatory body is the way to go right now given that nobody else has the recourse to ensure contracts are honored or at the very least penalize those organizations/players that don't honor them.
Can't ensure he honours a contract?
i don't think you have sufficient education to understand what a contract is if that's your stance.
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On July 22 2011 07:25 poorbeggarman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:20 j3i wrote:On July 22 2011 07:10 mmdmmd wrote:
Korean members on the Jessica thread said "respect and honor" is a very important part of Korean culture. If this is true then we can expect most of Korea's TSL fans will now hate Puma/EG?
Now I wait for EG releases their side of the story. This will be interesting. Actually, I think the hate is more on Puma. EG's move might be considered faux pas. (did I use that correctly?) Puma was the one who walked out on TSL. Or perhaps the conditions in TSL aren't as conducive to players as one might think?
Perhaps, but then we would need Puma or other TSL/former TSL members to testify.
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EG is becoming a monster SC 2 powerhouse. Puma just joined the Darkside... *Muhahaha*
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United States1160 Posts
This freaking crazy new wow
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On July 22 2011 07:24 Irave wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 05:51 djWHEAT wrote:
Confirmed: Alex Garfield of EG (who handled the initial discussions with PUMA) and Milkis (who broke the story and has done translation here on TL) will join Weapon Of Choice TOGETHER, in an effort to get both sides of the story, discuss culture, and try to present as many facts from both sides as humanly possible.
Here's hoping for a good show and rather than drama amplification, drama clarification.
If you needed a reason to watch Weapon of Choice tonight here you go. Show starts in about 36 minutes.
Funny that they talk about "culture". What's so cultural about it ? From my point of view, what EG did is unnacceptable morally speaking and I don't have slanting eyes : what's so korean about not agreeing with EG business plan ?
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On July 22 2011 07:25 poorbeggarman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:20 j3i wrote:On July 22 2011 07:10 mmdmmd wrote:
Korean members on the Jessica thread said "respect and honor" is a very important part of Korean culture. If this is true then we can expect most of Korea's TSL fans will now hate Puma/EG?
Now I wait for EG releases their side of the story. This will be interesting. Actually, I think the hate is more on Puma. EG's move might be considered faux pas. (did I use that correctly?) Puma was the one who walked out on TSL. Or perhaps the conditions in TSL aren't as conducive to players as one might think?
There could be some merit to that considering what TSL was and what it now is. If you were told TSLs lineup after first GSL you would think they were an unstoppable superteam since they had some of the best players in beta and Fruitdealer won the first GSL. Between then and now though a lot of those players have fallen off and practice could be one of the causes to it.
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That's just business. But it works both ways as Coach Lee made it clear himself. Contracts make sense now that SC2 is going mainstream.
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I think this is really an issue of Koreans making themselves good, and then foreigners, realizing that the Koreans are way ahead, just buy a finished product that they had no hand in making.
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The tsl coach is the one that really seems to be dissapointing me "letting" puma go and then throwing a shit storm like this one.
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Anyone else see Puma seriously regretting this decision in a few months? He left his practice house in Korea to play with a bunch of foreigners who let's be honest (with the possible exception of Idra) just aren't on the same level.
Oh, and this move by EG was seriously bm.
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On July 22 2011 07:25 poorbeggarman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:20 j3i wrote:On July 22 2011 07:10 mmdmmd wrote:
Korean members on the Jessica thread said "respect and honor" is a very important part of Korean culture. If this is true then we can expect most of Korea's TSL fans will now hate Puma/EG?
Now I wait for EG releases their side of the story. This will be interesting. Actually, I think the hate is more on Puma. EG's move might be considered faux pas. (did I use that correctly?) Puma was the one who walked out on TSL. Or perhaps the conditions in TSL aren't as conducive to players as one might think?
This is a popular idea too. TSL may be falling apart from the inside. 4 of their top players have left. Rain we know was due to his desire to play in foreign tournaments. FD and trickster left because they didnt agree with the new direction. Puma left presumably for foreign tournaments as well. Perhaps TSL is unable to provide their players with access to foreign tournaments.
FD and Trickster join Startale, who have been sending their players out to foreign events very early on. Ace and Squirtle at IEM come to mind. Maybe FD and Trickster chose ST for their consistency in sending out their players.
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On July 22 2011 07:27 j3i wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:25 poorbeggarman wrote:On July 22 2011 07:20 j3i wrote:On July 22 2011 07:10 mmdmmd wrote:
Korean members on the Jessica thread said "respect and honor" is a very important part of Korean culture. If this is true then we can expect most of Korea's TSL fans will now hate Puma/EG?
Now I wait for EG releases their side of the story. This will be interesting. Actually, I think the hate is more on Puma. EG's move might be considered faux pas. (did I use that correctly?) Puma was the one who walked out on TSL. Or perhaps the conditions in TSL aren't as conducive to players as one might think? Perhaps, but then we would need Puma or other TSL/former TSL members to testify.
For now, we are happy to base everything we say and think on a few translated words from a coach.
Seems fair.
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Business is business. At first I thought PuMa was contracted but I cannot believe how naive korean Pro teams are? seriously u keep players there thinking that in korean culture people will abide? if ur not legally binded anything can happen. Why risk that? Also now that I think about it more EG did nothing wrong to be honest. They approached a player that can make them big money and get them more sponsorships. Yeah its not ethically or morally right. But at the end of the day its business and to be honest no one cares about that when it comes to making money.
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To the people still saying bullshit about business and alike, please, read like you really want to UNDERSTAND what the TSL coach is saying. He never said that Puma couldn't leave TSL, he only said that they picked him, fed him, TRAINED him and actually paid him while he was still a noboby. And well, I know that I would expect a little of gratitude from him. But, he isn't angry about that as well.
What really upsets him is that EG acted like they don't have any kind of respect (or even ethics) and simply ignored the existence of TSL to negotiate directly with the player. And well, maybe to americans this doesn't means nothing but asian people usually likes to be given respect. And to be honest, it wouldn't hurt EG in any sense to at least enter in contact with TSL and say that they would contact Puma. But, it's okay right? Business is business, who needs ethics? Just hope you guys don't complain when you are fooled around by some company. Because that would be ironic.
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My complaint about the affair is not one on the ethics of business dealings, but rather that I dont think Foreign teams should be buying Korean players - it seems like cheating.
In the same way that people support football teams or sportsmen that arent winning championships week-in-week-out, so I like to support local/regional teams and players. Im a massive supporter of european teams and players precisely because they are european. If Dignitas picked up MMA tommorow I wouldn't be that impressed compared to if they picked up Demuslim.
I think as a foreign scene NA and EU need to be recruiting, training and evolving our own scenes to take on the koreans, not just skipping the hard work and poaching them.
Sure I can see that EG gets its name spread about the last 8 of more tournaments, more sponsorship, more exposure - but I think the excitement (and therefore exposure/sponsorship) of Idra getting there in an MLG is significantly more than 'generic-gosu-korean' doing it at every event.
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On July 22 2011 07:32 AYSJr wrote:
he only said that they picked him, fed him, TRAINED him and actually paid him while he was still a noboby.
On July 22 2011 Dr. Sin wrote:
When you have a large team, it doesn't cost that much money to house and feed someone and give them a spot to use a computer. To use this argument is childish because you can't possibly seriously expect someone to build a life for themselves under these conditions. It is exploitative.
I did read. See above.
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On July 22 2011 07:32 AYSJr wrote:
To the people still saying bullshit about business and alike, please, read like you really want to UNDERSTAND what the TSL coach is saying. He never said that Puma couldn't leave TSL, he only said that they picked him, fed him, TRAINED him and actually paid him while he was still a noboby. And well, I know that I would expect a little of gratitude from him. But, he isn't angry about that as well.
What really upsets him is that EG acted like they don't have any kind of respect (or even ethics) and simply ignored the existence of TSL to negotiate directly with the player. And well, maybe to americans this doesn't means nothing but asian people usually likes to be given respect. And to be honest, it wouldn't hurt EG in any sense to at least enter in contact with TSL and say that they would contact Puma. But, it's okay right? Business is business, who needs ethics? Just hope you guys don't complain when you are fooled around by some company. Because that would be ironic.
Great post. I agree 100%
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On July 22 2011 07:35 Dr.Sin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:32 AYSJr wrote:
he only said that they picked him, fed him, TRAINED him and actually paid him while he was still a noboby. Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 Dr. Sin wrote:
When you have a large team, it doesn't cost that much money to house and feed someone and give them a spot to use a computer. To use this argument is childish because you can't possibly seriously expect someone to build a life for themselves under these conditions. It is exploitative. I did read. See above.
He wasn't a nobody either - just ask Artosis 
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On July 22 2011 07:04 JayPower wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 06:51 MonkSEA wrote:On July 22 2011 06:36 JayPower wrote:On July 22 2011 06:33 Koshi wrote:
Just so lame that again something controversial happens and that once again EG is the center of it and is lying about it. Or how they call it "not telling the whole story".
Incontrol makes a problem of TB changing scenes to make money, now his manager acquires a top player on the most unethical way possible.
---> Incontrol telling on every podcast how EG is the best business in the world and that they did nothing wrong.
Pathetic. Everything that needs to be said has been said. PuMa WASN'T on a contract. It doesnt who who aproached who, Puma got offered a contract/deal w/e you wanna call it. PuMa told his coach about it and left TSL. There's nothing else to say. Either EG has a shit ton of money and really wants Puma or TSL heavily under-paid Puma and there was no reason for him to stay in a team that doesnt respect his talent. Rofl you serious bro? Did you even read any of the OP? It clearly states that PuMa was asked directly from EG to join their ranks, WITHOUT asking managers and what not. This is clearly wrong, no matter how you look at it EG stole a player from TSL. It'd be an entirely different story if EG asked TSL management. And TSL doesn't respect PuMa's talent? WTF are you on? You do realize they sent PuMa out in the GSTL to get 3 kills right? I dunno' how you can send a player out and not respect their talent. There's a reason you send them out, and it's that you respect their talent and have confidence in him. Your argument is completely wrong. It's ill-informed and pretty biased, we'll let people see who you're biased for. And if they didn't respect PuMa, and his talent, they would of kept him on TSL regardless of his wishes. Ugh people like you get me angry and make me get warnings on TL. You try to talk your away around it but it isn't going to work. Lemme write this very simple for you, because you're the one that didnt read the OP: It doesn't fucking matter who approached who. puma WAS NOT on a contract. Idc how you want to twist things around pretending puma made some sort of oral agreement with the coah(es) that he would not leave, because that's just not true. If it was im 100% sure the coach would include that in his reply to make people like you feel even more sad for him. Secondly, Puma has his own will. Do you really think after puma won NASL, EG said "hey since you're not on a contract come here and sign this contract"? He wasn't on a contract, he was allowed to leave. If TSL really wanted puma to stay, they would have offered him a better contract than EG did. But I guess they didnt have the money or didnt want to. Either way it wasnt stealing, it's called business.
All of these things that don't matter to you are why you fail to comprehend the complexity of the situation. Who contacted who matters a lot. Your reason for blowing it off is probably because you don't like anything that hurts your wall o force arguments. And failing to even try to understand a Korean point of view is just throwing your hands up in confusion and pounding your original point home in ignorance.
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On July 22 2011 07:32 resilve wrote:
My complaint about the affair is not one on the ethics of business dealings, but rather that I dont think Foreign teams should be buying Korean players - it seems like cheating.
In the same way that people support football teams or sportsmen that arent winning championships week-in-week-out, so I like to support local/regional teams and players. Im a massive supporter of european teams and players precisely because they are european. If Dignitas picked up MMA tommorow I wouldn't be that impressed compared to if they picked up Demuslim.
I think as a foreign scene NA and EU need to be recruiting, training and evolving our own scenes to take on the koreans, not just skipping the hard work and poaching them.
Sure I can see that EG gets its name spread about the last 8 of more tournaments, more sponsorship, more exposure - but I think the excitement (and therefore exposure/sponsorship) of Idra getting there in an MLG is significantly more than 'generic-gosu-korean' doing it at every event.
If getting experience versus Korean opponents proves difficult and yet at the same time seems the only way to truly improve, attracting them onto foreign teams for practice seems like a possible solution
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EPT
