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To the people still saying bullshit about business and alike, please, read like you really want to UNDERSTAND what the TSL coach is saying. He never said that Puma couldn't leave TSL, he only said that they picked him, fed him, TRAINED him and actually paid him while he was still a noboby. And well, I know that I would expect a little of gratitude from him. But, he isn't angry about that as well.
What really upsets him is that EG acted like they don't have any kind of respect (or even ethics) and simply ignored the existence of TSL to negotiate directly with the player. And well, maybe to americans this doesn't means nothing but asian people usually likes to be given respect. And to be honest, it wouldn't hurt EG in any sense to at least enter in contact with TSL and say that they would contact Puma. But, it's okay right? Business is business, who needs ethics? Just hope you guys don't complain when you are fooled around by some company. Because that would be ironic.
The real world is much more cutthroat than this, if you think getting burned because you're too naive to form a simple contract is bad then you have a lot of growing up to do. If you aren't even willing to commit to a player enough to form a contract with them perhaps EG thought their relationship wasn't as deep rooted as the coach made it out to be from their perspective. For many people the signing of a contract is the real sign that you're in business/connected with someone professionally.
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On July 22 2011 07:42 Jiddra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:32 AYSJr wrote:
To the people still saying bullshit about business and alike, please, read like you really want to UNDERSTAND what the TSL coach is saying. He never said that Puma couldn't leave TSL, he only said that they picked him, fed him, TRAINED him and actually paid him while he was still a noboby. And well, I know that I would expect a little of gratitude from him. But, he isn't angry about that as well.
What really upsets him is that EG acted like they don't have any kind of respect (or even ethics) and simply ignored the existence of TSL to negotiate directly with the player. And well, maybe to americans this doesn't means nothing but asian people usually likes to be given respect. And to be honest, it wouldn't hurt EG in any sense to at least enter in contact with TSL and say that they would contact Puma. But, it's okay right? Business is business, who needs ethics? Just hope you guys don't complain when you are fooled around by some company. Because that would be ironic. LOL @ calling Puma a nobody, someone most experst call the most skilled current BW player yet to transition to SC2. Excluding old legends that haven't put up results in a long time etc etc. 
Are you a serious? Do you have some kind of selective reading disorder??
He says "WHEN" he was still a nobody. Read the whole post, your a waste of space.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On July 22 2011 07:48 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:42 Jiddra wrote:On July 22 2011 07:32 AYSJr wrote:
To the people still saying bullshit about business and alike, please, read like you really want to UNDERSTAND what the TSL coach is saying. He never said that Puma couldn't leave TSL, he only said that they picked him, fed him, TRAINED him and actually paid him while he was still a noboby. And well, I know that I would expect a little of gratitude from him. But, he isn't angry about that as well.
What really upsets him is that EG acted like they don't have any kind of respect (or even ethics) and simply ignored the existence of TSL to negotiate directly with the player. And well, maybe to americans this doesn't means nothing but asian people usually likes to be given respect. And to be honest, it wouldn't hurt EG in any sense to at least enter in contact with TSL and say that they would contact Puma. But, it's okay right? Business is business, who needs ethics? Just hope you guys don't complain when you are fooled around by some company. Because that would be ironic. LOL @ calling Puma a nobody, someone most experst call the most skilled current BW player yet to transition to SC2. Excluding old legends that haven't put up results in a long time etc etc. Sorry but most people you consider experts dont' know anything about the brood war scene :X http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/96_PuMa/games#tblt-218-1-1-DESCPuma was bad. He all killed a team that gets a quarter of his practice time once, that was about it. He only ever got chances to play cause he was in Estro, which was a pretty bad team.
He wasnt that bad, he just couldn't perform in important matches, but he had the skill to do better than he did.
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On July 22 2011 07:47 Fionn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:45 bibbaly wrote:
The story wasn't blown up when fruitdealer left for ST nor was it when rain left for Fnatic. This wasn't an isolated case because many players have been leaving TSL which leads me to believe that some players in the TSL house are unhappy with management.
This story is getting blown up because he just recently won a foreign tournament and got picked up by a foreign team. I would like to know the details a little bit more, sure everyone does, but TSL just playing a victim card doesn't sit well with me. FruitDealer tweeted "Big headed Puma". That is a guy who left TSL. So in at least FD's eyes, the way Trickster/FD left TSL is totally different than what Puma did.
Rofl. I actually caught that yesterday a few hours before this entire thing blew up, and I was like: "Huh." But I guess he'd caught some whiff of what was going on before Puma's departure from TSL was announced.
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Australia8532 Posts
On July 22 2011 07:45 bibbaly wrote:
The story wasn't blown up when fruitdealer left for ST nor was it when rain left for Fnatic. This wasn't an isolated case because many players have been leaving TSL which leads me to believe that some players in the TSL house are unhappy with management.
This story is getting blown up because he just recently won a foreign tournament and got picked up by a foreign team. I would like to know the details a little bit more, sure everyone does, but TSL just playing a victim card doesn't sit well with me.
The issue is blown up because EG asked PuMa to join the team without consulting his coach or his current team at the time (TSL)
Whether or not the management at TSL is super awesome or really terrible, it is perceived as disrespectful by the EG management to approach the issue in such a way. The coach has set this will set a precedent in the realm of player contracts and he is incredibly upset about the way EG handled the matter. Overall, he has merit in his claims, and particularly when you consider the large focus on respect within the culture. TSL aren't asking for any action or compensation (from what i can read), they are expressing how uneasy they are with how it all happened.
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On July 22 2011 07:51 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:42 Jiddra wrote:On July 22 2011 07:32 AYSJr wrote:
To the people still saying bullshit about business and alike, please, read like you really want to UNDERSTAND what the TSL coach is saying. He never said that Puma couldn't leave TSL, he only said that they picked him, fed him, TRAINED him and actually paid him while he was still a noboby. And well, I know that I would expect a little of gratitude from him. But, he isn't angry about that as well.
What really upsets him is that EG acted like they don't have any kind of respect (or even ethics) and simply ignored the existence of TSL to negotiate directly with the player. And well, maybe to americans this doesn't means nothing but asian people usually likes to be given respect. And to be honest, it wouldn't hurt EG in any sense to at least enter in contact with TSL and say that they would contact Puma. But, it's okay right? Business is business, who needs ethics? Just hope you guys don't complain when you are fooled around by some company. Because that would be ironic. LOL @ calling Puma a nobody, someone most experst call the most skilled current BW player yet to transition to SC2. Excluding old legends that haven't put up results in a long time etc etc. Are you a serious? Do you have some kind of selective reading disorder?? He says "WHEN" he was still a nobody. Read the whole post, your a waste of space.
and he wasn't on TSL was he was in BW.
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On July 22 2011 07:42 Holcan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:32 resilve wrote:
My complaint about the affair is not one on the ethics of business dealings, but rather that I dont think Foreign teams should be buying Korean players - it seems like cheating.
In the same way that people support football teams or sportsmen that arent winning championships week-in-week-out, so I like to support local/regional teams and players. Im a massive supporter of european teams and players precisely because they are european. If Dignitas picked up MMA tommorow I wouldn't be that impressed compared to if they picked up Demuslim.
I think as a foreign scene NA and EU need to be recruiting, training and evolving our own scenes to take on the koreans, not just skipping the hard work and poaching them.
Sure I can see that EG gets its name spread about the last 8 of more tournaments, more sponsorship, more exposure - but I think the excitement (and therefore exposure/sponsorship) of Idra getting there in an MLG is significantly more than 'generic-gosu-korean' doing it at every event. What you are saying is more or less racist. What seperates MMA from Demuslim? Just locale of birth and housing. So because of those two things you would rather cheer for another person, even though he isn't competing on as high of level, and has only in his career competed at a high level, for a short period of time? Personally I cannot wait for extremely mediocre players being able to demand ridiculously high wages until it becomes unprofitable for teams to support them, and we have another catostrophe like the SK vs MyM days of wc3. I welcome Korean players taking foreign organizations money, I mean someone has to take it, it might as well be the people who are worth their money opposed to the people who are extremely lackluster. The American scene is personalities, the European scene is weekly cups, and the Korean Scene is extremely rigorous training, which one deserves the most return on their investment?
My post is about what I, as a fan, find the most exiting and emotional. As I said quite clearly, my point is nothing to do with business.
I do the equivalent of fist-pumping and yelling in joy when Socke (my fav player) beats a player I dislike or goes far in a tournament. I get nowhere near as excited when MC rolls another game - with much better play.
Saying I don't believe all people/races/creeds to be equal because in a sporting event I support those players and teams closer to me culturally and geographically, those who fly my flag, is one of the most moronic things I could imagine.
This is (e-)sport, not warfare and politics - you are allowed to get behind a team without it being an assumption that you think everyone else is worse, inferior and degenerate human beings.
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Yeah but Puma was playing top koreans on ladder and his team for practice. Being anywhere other then Korea means his ladder game and practice time is with less skilled players which over time means he will slowly get worse as well.
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I wonder what the players think of this. I mean puma joining EG, not this drama.
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United States5162 Posts
On July 22 2011 07:51 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:45 bibbaly wrote:
The story wasn't blown up when fruitdealer left for ST nor was it when rain left for Fnatic. This wasn't an isolated case because many players have been leaving TSL which leads me to believe that some players in the TSL house are unhappy with management.
This story is getting blown up because he just recently won a foreign tournament and got picked up by a foreign team. I would like to know the details a little bit more, sure everyone does, but TSL just playing a victim card doesn't sit well with me. The issue is blown up because EG asked PuMa to join the team without consulting his coach or his current team at the time (TSL) Whether or not the management at TSL is super awesome or really terrible, it is perceived as disrespectful by the EG management to approach the issue in such a way. The coach has set this will set a precedent in the realm of player contracts and he is incredibly upset about the way EG handled the matter. Overall, he has merit in his claims, and particularly when you consider the large focus on respect within the culture. TSL aren't asking for any action or compensation (from what i can read), they are expressing how uneasy they are with how it all happened.
I don't understand why it makes a difference. If the player doesn't have a contract, even if there's some kind of verbal agreement(which didn't seem to have any real details other than Puma represents the team and gets to live in the team house), then talking to the management is pretty much pointless. This is seriously how I see the call going
EG: Hi, we'd like to offer your player a contract.
TSL: We wouldn't like that.
EG: Do you have a current contract with him?
TSL: No.
EG: Ok, then we're going to offer him a contract.
I guess if calling someone first and telling them we're going to offer your player a deal is some huge respect thing I'll just have to admit the difference in culture just doesn't translate.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On July 22 2011 07:50 Jiddra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:48 Milkis wrote:On July 22 2011 07:42 Jiddra wrote:On July 22 2011 07:32 AYSJr wrote:
To the people still saying bullshit about business and alike, please, read like you really want to UNDERSTAND what the TSL coach is saying. He never said that Puma couldn't leave TSL, he only said that they picked him, fed him, TRAINED him and actually paid him while he was still a noboby. And well, I know that I would expect a little of gratitude from him. But, he isn't angry about that as well.
What really upsets him is that EG acted like they don't have any kind of respect (or even ethics) and simply ignored the existence of TSL to negotiate directly with the player. And well, maybe to americans this doesn't means nothing but asian people usually likes to be given respect. And to be honest, it wouldn't hurt EG in any sense to at least enter in contact with TSL and say that they would contact Puma. But, it's okay right? Business is business, who needs ethics? Just hope you guys don't complain when you are fooled around by some company. Because that would be ironic. LOL @ calling Puma a nobody, someone most experst call the most skilled current BW player yet to transition to SC2. Excluding old legends that haven't put up results in a long time etc etc. Sorry but most people you consider experts dont' know anything about the brood war scene :X http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/96_PuMa/games#tblt-218-1-1-DESCPuma was bad. He all killed a team that gets a quarter of his practice time once, that was about it. He only ever got chances to play cause he was in Estro, which was a pretty bad team. Skill dosen't mean results.
There is, if I'm not mistaken, a commonly recognized correlation between the two.
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AYSJr: I moved out of my parents over 6 years ago. I have a full set of scholarships that include salary, cost of living, equipment, travel funds and tuition and with which I bought a condo in a major city for doing biomedical research at a prestigious university, where I created and patented an experimental cancer treatment. How about you?
When you have an entire team of people living under your roof, the costs decrease dramatically, especially if you're stuffing several of them in a room at a time. Its why people become roommates, because they wouldn't afford moving out otherwise. I would be extremely surprised that it would cost TSL more than $5000/year to host Puma in the team house. Re the salary: none of us know what he was being paid, if anything. Only he would be able to tell us if he makes $7.25 for every hour (we'll use the Federal minimum wage for argument's sake) he trains and helps his team. I think it is extremely reasonable that it amounts to much less. Korean players are no slouches, people like Puma are good because they work extremely hard. Nevertheless, he has no equity on a mortgage, likely little credit to speak of, no savings or training in any kind of work that would enable him to easily reinsert within society. Most importantly, lacking a contract or any frame work to SC2, he also had no job protection or health benefits. Sounds like exploitation to me.
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To the people that are saying the only issue here is that EG did not contact TSL
Do you really think this would do any good? "Hi, we want to offer one of your members a contract and make them instead a member of our team. Is that ok?"
Of course it's not ok. Do you people seriously believe TSL would say "yes, that's great, take one of our top players - it's good for e-sports! Thanks for asking first!"
TSL coach Lee Woon-Jae is considering puma property of TSL based on what he has been given. Obviously puma wasn't happy with the arrangement and so he left. There's so much nothing to this story other than what the TSL coach said, which is causing all of the drama.
"Listen it's ok if you want my girlfriend, just tell me what sort of positions you want her in and maybe we can arrange something." <--- Lee Woon Jae
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Although not I'm a fan of the way EG acquired Puma, I must say that Coach Lee's actions to this incident will actually hurt Puma more than it actually hurt EG. So still waiting for EG to make their statement.
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On July 22 2011 07:58 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:50 Jiddra wrote:On July 22 2011 07:48 Milkis wrote:On July 22 2011 07:42 Jiddra wrote:On July 22 2011 07:32 AYSJr wrote:
To the people still saying bullshit about business and alike, please, read like you really want to UNDERSTAND what the TSL coach is saying. He never said that Puma couldn't leave TSL, he only said that they picked him, fed him, TRAINED him and actually paid him while he was still a noboby. And well, I know that I would expect a little of gratitude from him. But, he isn't angry about that as well.
What really upsets him is that EG acted like they don't have any kind of respect (or even ethics) and simply ignored the existence of TSL to negotiate directly with the player. And well, maybe to americans this doesn't means nothing but asian people usually likes to be given respect. And to be honest, it wouldn't hurt EG in any sense to at least enter in contact with TSL and say that they would contact Puma. But, it's okay right? Business is business, who needs ethics? Just hope you guys don't complain when you are fooled around by some company. Because that would be ironic. LOL @ calling Puma a nobody, someone most experst call the most skilled current BW player yet to transition to SC2. Excluding old legends that haven't put up results in a long time etc etc. Sorry but most people you consider experts dont' know anything about the brood war scene :X http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/96_PuMa/games#tblt-218-1-1-DESCPuma was bad. He all killed a team that gets a quarter of his practice time once, that was about it. He only ever got chances to play cause he was in Estro, which was a pretty bad team. Skill dosen't mean results. There is, if I'm not mistaken, a commonly recognized correlation between the two.
There is but not always an exact correlation. For example Huk was someone who people kept saying was skilled for most of the time he was in Korea but he kept losing big games or getting a lucky BO win in them and just looking bad. The same could be said about Puma that everyone knew he was great he just couldnt put it together when it was on the line.
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On July 22 2011 07:58 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:50 Jiddra wrote:On July 22 2011 07:48 Milkis wrote:On July 22 2011 07:42 Jiddra wrote:On July 22 2011 07:32 AYSJr wrote:
To the people still saying bullshit about business and alike, please, read like you really want to UNDERSTAND what the TSL coach is saying. He never said that Puma couldn't leave TSL, he only said that they picked him, fed him, TRAINED him and actually paid him while he was still a noboby. And well, I know that I would expect a little of gratitude from him. But, he isn't angry about that as well.
What really upsets him is that EG acted like they don't have any kind of respect (or even ethics) and simply ignored the existence of TSL to negotiate directly with the player. And well, maybe to americans this doesn't means nothing but asian people usually likes to be given respect. And to be honest, it wouldn't hurt EG in any sense to at least enter in contact with TSL and say that they would contact Puma. But, it's okay right? Business is business, who needs ethics? Just hope you guys don't complain when you are fooled around by some company. Because that would be ironic. LOL @ calling Puma a nobody, someone most experst call the most skilled current BW player yet to transition to SC2. Excluding old legends that haven't put up results in a long time etc etc. Sorry but most people you consider experts dont' know anything about the brood war scene :X http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/96_PuMa/games#tblt-218-1-1-DESCPuma was bad. He all killed a team that gets a quarter of his practice time once, that was about it. He only ever got chances to play cause he was in Estro, which was a pretty bad team. Skill dosen't mean results. There is, if I'm not mistaken, a commonly recognized correlation between the two.
Artosis has noted that he was the most requested practice partner or something along those lines for players including Flash. He has skill.
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This saddens me a lot, because someone as skilled as PuMa will die out into a non top tier player because of this. Everyone with eyes must acknowledge that EGs best idra is just about two tiers below Puma, maybe 1 on a good day, but EGs best protoss could maybe take a couple of games of him in a Bo 50... Solo laddering on KR isnt going to cut it. And at the end of the day the result will be that EGs vT will improve, but they, including Puma will just be getting further and further behind the Korean pro scene, which is already attending international events, and they will still be winning them. Simple as that.. its quite a shame.
In terms of the method, ye business is business, but as someone pointed out in SC2 its not only business, because the scene relies heavily on dedicated community, and 200 pages of bashing, and x10 that on KR is a big deal, and should have consequences in the way at the very least EG is viewed, but hopefully not all of the foreign scene. SK gaming has done a clever thing, and i cannot see why EG always has to have drama surrounding their actions. Just goddamn talk to the manager, and everyone is happy. Or maybe they were scared that TSL can offer PuMa more cash? :o who knows, just please EG, next time grab a pair of balls and handle the situation like adults would, or this is what you get.
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On July 22 2011 07:59 Dr.Sin wrote:
AYSJr: I moved out of my parents over 6 years ago. I have a full set of scholarships that include salary, cost of living, equipment, travel funds and tuition and with which I bought a condo in a major city for doing biomedical research at a prestigious university, where I created and patented an experimental cancer treatment. How about you?
When you have an entire team of people living under your roof, the costs decrease dramatically, especially if you're stuffing several of them in a room at a time. Its why people become roommates, because they wouldn't afford moving out otherwise. I would be extremely surprised that it would cost TSL more than $5000/year to host Puma in the team house. Re the salary: none of us know what he was being paid, if anything. Only he would be able to tell us if he makes $7.25 for every hour (we'll use the Federal minimum wage for argument's sake) he trains and helps his team. I think it is extremely reasonable that it amounts to much less. Korean players are no slouches, people like Puma are good because they work extremely hard. Nevertheless, he has no equity on a mortgage, likely little credit to speak of, no savings or training in any kind of work that would enable him to easily reinsert within society. Most importantly, lacking a contract or any frame work to SC2, he also had no job protection or health benefits. Sounds like exploitation to me.
What does the first paragraph have to do with anything?
edit: Read back a bit, understand now. Still comes off as pretentious.
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On July 22 2011 07:32 AYSJr wrote:
To the people still saying bullshit about business and alike, please, read like you really want to UNDERSTAND what the TSL coach is saying. He never said that Puma couldn't leave TSL, he only said that they picked him, fed him, TRAINED him and actually paid him while he was still a noboby. And well, I know that I would expect a little of gratitude from him. But, he isn't angry about that as well.
What really upsets him is that EG acted like they don't have any kind of respect (or even ethics) and simply ignored the existence of TSL to negotiate directly with the player. And well, maybe to americans this doesn't means nothing but asian people usually likes to be given respect. And to be honest, it wouldn't hurt EG in any sense to at least enter in contact with TSL and say that they would contact Puma. But, it's okay right? Business is business, who needs ethics? Just hope you guys don't complain when you are fooled around by some company. Because that would be ironic.
In agreement with this , nuff said. There is no reason to disrespect a team that has raised an extreme talent like puma.
Im just sad to see him leave a team like TSL for a team like EG, he will not be nurtured(as a player) properly wheather he chooses to stay in korea or not. He wont have the practice partners or the foundations that originally made him great. If anything playing with lesser skilled players except for maybe idra fromm EG will make him worse.
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On July 22 2011 08:01 Shaetan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:58 tree.hugger wrote:On July 22 2011 07:50 Jiddra wrote:On July 22 2011 07:48 Milkis wrote:On July 22 2011 07:42 Jiddra wrote:On July 22 2011 07:32 AYSJr wrote:
To the people still saying bullshit about business and alike, please, read like you really want to UNDERSTAND what the TSL coach is saying. He never said that Puma couldn't leave TSL, he only said that they picked him, fed him, TRAINED him and actually paid him while he was still a noboby. And well, I know that I would expect a little of gratitude from him. But, he isn't angry about that as well.
What really upsets him is that EG acted like they don't have any kind of respect (or even ethics) and simply ignored the existence of TSL to negotiate directly with the player. And well, maybe to americans this doesn't means nothing but asian people usually likes to be given respect. And to be honest, it wouldn't hurt EG in any sense to at least enter in contact with TSL and say that they would contact Puma. But, it's okay right? Business is business, who needs ethics? Just hope you guys don't complain when you are fooled around by some company. Because that would be ironic. LOL @ calling Puma a nobody, someone most experst call the most skilled current BW player yet to transition to SC2. Excluding old legends that haven't put up results in a long time etc etc. Sorry but most people you consider experts dont' know anything about the brood war scene :X http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/96_PuMa/games#tblt-218-1-1-DESCPuma was bad. He all killed a team that gets a quarter of his practice time once, that was about it. He only ever got chances to play cause he was in Estro, which was a pretty bad team. Skill dosen't mean results. There is, if I'm not mistaken, a commonly recognized correlation between the two. Artosis has noted that he was the most requested practice partner or something along those lines for players including Flash. He has skill.
lol not this again...
He wasn't considered incredibly skilled in bw. He was just a mediocre terran (which was ok considering he was relatively new), and this is coming from a guy that actually liked him... Had he transitioned to CJ with the rest of the remaining Sparkyz lineup he might have been able to secure himself a spot on their main lineup eventually, but he didn't.
And the whole "zomg he was flash's personal practice partner" line that I keep hearing from too many sc2 fans is blown way out of proportion. Flash practices with his team, STX, woongjin, Khan, Fantasy, JD and many other players. While its true that he practiced with eSTRO players as well, Puma was by no means the practice bonjwa that sc2 word of mouth seemed to have made him out to be. This is like a telephone game that started with "Flash practiced with Puma from time to time" to "Puma was Flash's top personal practice partner".
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EPT
