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On July 22 2011 06:52 BrisklyGrape wrote:
In the business world, this kind of behavior from EG is really quite standard from the American point of view. In the NFL and NBA for example, players are allowed to make those kinds of decisions to an extent, but because they are contracted eventually managements have to contact each other to change anything permanently.
The fact that TSL was not using contracts to keep their players with thee team is a shortsighted and somewhat unintelligent move, as contracts keep people from fucking each other over on both ends.
Just my two cents.
The Korean e-sports scene resides in KOREA. Thus it is no wonder that they chose to operate under a system tailored to KOREAN culture. You can't compare the Korean business world to the American business world. What works in America doesn't won't always work in Korea and vice versa. What EG did is comparable to Commodore Perry's forced opening of the Japanese borders in 1854. But instead of using superior firearms and ships, EG used superior funding and other perks. No one in Japan at the time expected an American captain to randomly show up on Japanese soil one day, just as no one in Korea expected an EG manager to be disrespectful enough to approach Korean players without contacting the proper management first.
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I lost a lot of respect for Puma doing this. Why abandon your team like that, especially for some mediocre foreign team lol?
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"It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts. Because of many similar occurances [to Puma's case], we plan to make contracts mandatory.
Basically is codeword for: We hadn't even begun thinking about these things yet and we got caught with our pants down. We will resolve this issue to avoid further problems.
Its really not that big a deal
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On July 22 2011 06:56 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 06:55 xBillehx wrote:
People keep saying Puma wasn't contracted but he was definitely still on the team. Everyone knew he was part of TSL, EG knew he was part of TSL when they poached him. Whether it's right or wrong I don't understand people trying to argue that Puma was an actual free agent, he wasn't. There was an agreement with TSL/Puma and regardless of whether or not a legal contract existed, he was still part of TSL when EG approached him, not a free agent representing TSL out of good will. I won't argue legality of it, because it was definitely legal since no contract existed, but will people please stop addressing the situation as EG approaching a free agent, they obviously approached someone they knew was affiliated with a team.
With that said I'm holding further judgement until after WoC tonight. Yes he was, he was agreeing to represent TSL only in principle and if they wanted him that badly they would put money down to secure his services as a player. It makes it look like you only want him there to be a temp player to help you out while he trains and you both mutually benefit until he moves on.
wow...TSL was the the FIRST Korean sc2 team to pay their players SALARIES. Puma was getting a SALARY while he was on the team. Even without a written contract he was still being PAID.
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Wow i get back on today and this is 240 pages :O, has EG made a statement? or are we still just going off TSL info?
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is there any official statement from EG regarding that matter, not wanna jump to something without knowing their side
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On July 22 2011 07:02 Yew wrote:
I lost a lot of respect for Puma doing this. Why abandon your team like that, especially for some mediocre foreign team lol?
Its all about the $$$ unfortuanately
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On July 22 2011 06:51 MonkSEA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 06:36 JayPower wrote:On July 22 2011 06:33 Koshi wrote:
Just so lame that again something controversial happens and that once again EG is the center of it and is lying about it. Or how they call it "not telling the whole story".
Incontrol makes a problem of TB changing scenes to make money, now his manager acquires a top player on the most unethical way possible.
---> Incontrol telling on every podcast how EG is the best business in the world and that they did nothing wrong.
Pathetic. Everything that needs to be said has been said. PuMa WASN'T on a contract. It doesnt who who aproached who, Puma got offered a contract/deal w/e you wanna call it. PuMa told his coach about it and left TSL. There's nothing else to say. Either EG has a shit ton of money and really wants Puma or TSL heavily under-paid Puma and there was no reason for him to stay in a team that doesnt respect his talent. Rofl you serious bro? Did you even read any of the OP? It clearly states that PuMa was asked directly from EG to join their ranks, WITHOUT asking managers and what not. This is clearly wrong, no matter how you look at it EG stole a player from TSL. It'd be an entirely different story if EG asked TSL management. And TSL doesn't respect PuMa's talent? WTF are you on? You do realize they sent PuMa out in the GSTL to get 3 kills right? I dunno' how you can send a player out and not respect their talent. There's a reason you send them out, and it's that you respect their talent and have confidence in him. Your argument is completely wrong. It's ill-informed and pretty biased, we'll let people see who you're biased for. And if they didn't respect PuMa, and his talent, they would of kept him on TSL regardless of his wishes.
Ugh people like you get me angry and make me get warnings on TL.
You try to talk your away around it but it isn't going to work.
Lemme write this very simple for you, because you're the one that didnt read the OP:
It doesn't fucking matter who approached who. puma WAS NOT on a contract. Idc how you want to twist things around pretending puma made some sort of oral agreement with the coah(es) that he would not leave, because that's just not true. If it was im 100% sure the coach would include that in his reply to make people like you feel even more sad for him.
Secondly, Puma has his own will. Do you really think after puma won NASL, EG said "hey since you're not on a contract come here and sign this contract"? He wasn't on a contract, he was allowed to leave.
If TSL really wanted puma to stay, they would have offered him a better contract than EG did. But I guess they didnt have the money or didnt want to. Either way it wasnt stealing, it's called business.
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On July 22 2011 06:56 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 06:55 xBillehx wrote:
People keep saying Puma wasn't contracted but he was definitely still on the team. Everyone knew he was part of TSL, EG knew he was part of TSL when they poached him. Whether it's right or wrong I don't understand people trying to argue that Puma was an actual free agent, he wasn't. There was an agreement with TSL/Puma and regardless of whether or not a legal contract existed, he was still part of TSL when EG approached him, not a free agent representing TSL out of good will. I won't argue legality of it, because it was definitely legal since no contract existed, but will people please stop addressing the situation as EG approaching a free agent, they obviously approached someone they knew was affiliated with a team.
With that said I'm holding further judgement until after WoC tonight. Yes he was, he was agreeing to represent TSL only in principle and if they wanted him that badly they would put money down to secure his services as a player. It makes it look like you only want him there to be a temp player to help you out while he trains and you both mutually benefit until he moves on.
AFAIK there was money involved, just not enough and definitely not a legal binding contract which is why I wont argue legality. However, calling him a free agent at the time he was approached would imply that he wasn't part of the TSL team and that's just absurd. He was on their roster, living in their house, had his own uniform, he was part of the team. By his own admission in many interviews and even at the NASL event itself, he was part of TSL. I don't think he'd ever argue that fact so I don't really understand why people here try to.
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On July 22 2011 07:02 Xafnia wrote:Show nested quote +"It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts. Because of many similar occurances [to Puma's case], we plan to make contracts mandatory.
Basically is codeword for: We hadn't even begun thinking about these things yet and we got caught with our pants down. We will resolve this issue to avoid further problems. Its really not that big a deal
funny thing is that he said "MANY SIMILAR OCCURRENCES" so he knew this shit was gonna happen to TSL sooner or later and yet they weren't prepared for it.
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On July 22 2011 07:03 {ToT}ColmA wrote:
is there any official statement from EG regarding that matter, not wanna jump to something without knowing their side
They will be making a statement tonight on DJWheats how in about an hour.
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On July 22 2011 07:03 {ToT}ColmA wrote:
is there any official statement from EG regarding that matter, not wanna jump to something without knowing their side
Gonna be on DJwheats show tonight tune in
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On July 22 2011 07:02 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 06:52 BrisklyGrape wrote:
In the business world, this kind of behavior from EG is really quite standard from the American point of view. In the NFL and NBA for example, players are allowed to make those kinds of decisions to an extent, but because they are contracted eventually managements have to contact each other to change anything permanently.
The fact that TSL was not using contracts to keep their players with thee team is a shortsighted and somewhat unintelligent move, as contracts keep people from fucking each other over on both ends.
Just my two cents. The Korean e-sports scene resides in KOREA. Thus it is no wonder that they chose to operate under a system tailored to KOREAN culture. You can't compare the Korean business world to the American business world. What works in America doesn't won't always work in Korea and vice versa. What EG did is comparable to Commodore Perry's forced opening of the Japanese borders in 1854. But instead of using superior firearms and ships, EG used superior funding and other perks. No one in Japan at the time expected an American captain to randomly show up on Japanese soil one day, just as no one in Korea expected an EG manager to be disrespectful enough to approach Korean players without contacting the proper management first.
My lord, I thought this thread couldn't get any worse, and then this dude brings up Commodore Perry? Are you out of your mind? So, if Commodore Perry would have talked to Japan's coach before landing, problem solved ehh?
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On July 22 2011 07:02 BackSideAttack wrote:
What EG did is comparable to Commodore Perry's forced opening of the Japanese borders in 1854. But instead of using superior firearms and ships, EG used superior funding and other perks. No one in Japan at the time expected an American captain to randomly show up on Japanese soil one day, just as no one in Korea expected an EG manager to be disrespectful enough to approach Korean players without contacting the proper management first.
Uh, you win the award for most silly analogy in the thread.
As someone who has dealt with Koreans in Korea, with Japanese in Japan and with Chinese in China, I can assure you that while there are certainly cultural idiosyncrasies in every country, when it comes down to it, businesses still operate by writ of contract and formal written agreements.
Of note, remember that in the Brood War scene, players *are* indeed bound by contract. So it's hardly a symptom of whatever South Korea cultural thing you're thinking about.
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On July 22 2011 07:04 Midgetman101 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:02 Yew wrote:
I lost a lot of respect for Puma doing this. Why abandon your team like that, especially for some mediocre foreign team lol? Its all about the $$$ unfortuanately
Yeah  He's a great player, but he's probably not going to get the quality of practice like he did on TSL. They provided him with food and a place to stay, along with practice partners. They didn't even make him share the prize money with the team! Bad move by Puma.
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Contracts are important because they protect the players and the organization they belong to. It creates a structure for people to work in and teams to interact with one another. On the player side, a contract provides security and guarantees and presents the conditions for which he must meet his obligations. On the company's side, it guarantees the company's most valuable assets, their people, and consequences for the loss of these assets.
Could EG have been discourteous? Possibly. We'll hear more about it tonight, many thanks to Wheat. However, being discourteous is certainly not something for us to get upset and start with ritual disembowelment over. Far worse things have been done and are routinely done and are happening right now. I mean come on, these kids playing SC2 put a lot on the line while living under crappy conditions for the faint hope that one in hundreds will get a reasonable return at some point. When you have a large team, it doesn't cost that much money to house and feed someone and give them a spot to use a computer. To use this argument is childish because you can't possibly seriously expect someone to build a life for themselves under these conditions. It is exploitative.
Re Puma, as the saying goes, if you like it, put a ring on it. The fact that Korean SC2 lacked any kind of structure like this is a sign of the immaturity of the industry. If SC2 wants to be serious, the teams must acknowledge that this is a business and comport themselves like it.
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On July 22 2011 06:58 dacthehork wrote:
In HoN there was a tournament in singapore. ICE won 3000 dollars and the money was sent to the captain. A player had paid out of his own pocket 1200 dollars to fly in and play last moment. The captain pocketed all the money and never paid anyone (killing the team). There was no contract up for them so no real legal action took place.
Would you still support that player's actions? No it's despicable. The same thing is when a team trains you for 10 months and treats you pretty well to just say.. welp I'm leaving for a better deal now that I won NASL.
Both are pretty "wrong" in terms of most ethics, in terms of paying back TSL (getting a transfer fee paid at least) or paying back a player that payed 1200 of his own money to go. Neither where illegal. If you think its cool beans and "good people" that do everything possible regardless of who it fucks over to get ahead fine. But still most people will view EG negatively for this type of shit (they even went after contracted players).
Either way its pretty obvious koreans will be under tight contracts before they roll into MLG
Except Puma has more than earned whatever in room, board, and training he's received. He's represented his team incredibly well in team league and nasl. Making the argument that he owes his team more than what he's already given is sketchy at best, since you then have to ask the question of how much he owes his team, which I don't think you could answer even with full disclosure of all the facts. There really is no comparison to stealing 3k in prize money from your team.
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On July 22 2011 07:03 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 06:56 Serpico wrote:On July 22 2011 06:55 xBillehx wrote:
People keep saying Puma wasn't contracted but he was definitely still on the team. Everyone knew he was part of TSL, EG knew he was part of TSL when they poached him. Whether it's right or wrong I don't understand people trying to argue that Puma was an actual free agent, he wasn't. There was an agreement with TSL/Puma and regardless of whether or not a legal contract existed, he was still part of TSL when EG approached him, not a free agent representing TSL out of good will. I won't argue legality of it, because it was definitely legal since no contract existed, but will people please stop addressing the situation as EG approaching a free agent, they obviously approached someone they knew was affiliated with a team.
With that said I'm holding further judgement until after WoC tonight. Yes he was, he was agreeing to represent TSL only in principle and if they wanted him that badly they would put money down to secure his services as a player. It makes it look like you only want him there to be a temp player to help you out while he trains and you both mutually benefit until he moves on. wow...TSL was the the FIRST Korean sc2 team to pay their players SALARIES. Puma was getting a SALARY while he was on the team. Even without a written contract he was still being PAID.
And if you go without a contract that becomes irrelevant because you've put nothing into writing.
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Hey if you don't have a contract in place then you only have yourself to blame when you get screwed over.
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On July 22 2011 07:06 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:03 BackSideAttack wrote:On July 22 2011 06:56 Serpico wrote:On July 22 2011 06:55 xBillehx wrote:
People keep saying Puma wasn't contracted but he was definitely still on the team. Everyone knew he was part of TSL, EG knew he was part of TSL when they poached him. Whether it's right or wrong I don't understand people trying to argue that Puma was an actual free agent, he wasn't. There was an agreement with TSL/Puma and regardless of whether or not a legal contract existed, he was still part of TSL when EG approached him, not a free agent representing TSL out of good will. I won't argue legality of it, because it was definitely legal since no contract existed, but will people please stop addressing the situation as EG approaching a free agent, they obviously approached someone they knew was affiliated with a team.
With that said I'm holding further judgement until after WoC tonight. Yes he was, he was agreeing to represent TSL only in principle and if they wanted him that badly they would put money down to secure his services as a player. It makes it look like you only want him there to be a temp player to help you out while he trains and you both mutually benefit until he moves on. wow...TSL was the the FIRST Korean sc2 team to pay their players SALARIES. Puma was getting a SALARY while he was on the team. Even without a written contract he was still being PAID. And if you go without a contract that becomes irrelevant because you've put nothing into writing.
No it doesnt....
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EPT
