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Puma leaves TSL for EG - Page 201

Forum Index > SC2 General
7189 CommentsPost a Reply
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StarcraftKevin
Profile Joined August 2009
United States285 Posts
July 21 2011 18:31 GMT
#4001
Why didn't sir scoots approach the coach of the tsl for the player offer like fxo did with fou?
LiquidHerO || SlyaerSMMA || SlayerSTaeja || NsHsJJakji || NsHsSeal || NsHsSage || MVPDongraegu
SourD
Profile Joined February 2011
United States81 Posts
July 21 2011 18:31 GMT
#4002
On July 22 2011 03:28 j3i wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 03:22 Soap wrote:
"It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts.


So the korean SC2 scene is being run by amateurs, no wonder it isn't exactly thriving.


This is new. The Korean sc2 scene being called amateurs. wow


actually sc2 teams in korea atleast at the management level does seem to be a bit amateurish. little or no solid infrastructure built in..
leo23
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States3075 Posts
July 21 2011 18:31 GMT
#4003
oh man this is getting juicier by the minute!
banelings
vyyye
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden3917 Posts
July 21 2011 18:31 GMT
#4004
On July 22 2011 03:31 hydra21 wrote:
From what I understand most Korean teams do not have contracts etc. Korean culture is very different than ours, and in Korea, a team would not have done what EG did. They have different concepts of duty and obligation and EG took advantage of that it would seem.

I'm everything but an expert on the BW scene but I'm quite sure they did have contracts and players had very little say in what they could or couldn't do.
Caliber
Profile Joined August 2010
United States598 Posts
July 21 2011 18:32 GMT
#4005
evil geniuses living up to their name.

wonder if puma is moving into the eg house
Dayrlan
Profile Joined November 2010
United States248 Posts
July 21 2011 18:32 GMT
#4006
On July 22 2011 03:28 FairForever wrote:
The biggest irony is people saying this is bad for E-Sports.

Personally I think this is a terrible game-play decision for Puma, but a good monetary one obviously. But this is great for E-Sports. Essentially this is saying that top players in Korea deserve and should get a fair wage rather than the meager scraps that Korean teams generally provide to non-Code S players.


Yeah. I think this is the salient point in all of this.

SC2 Korean pros will continue migrating to foreign teams so long as foreign teams are willing to pay substantially more. It's just a plain economic fact.
vilehelm
Profile Joined July 2011
10 Posts
July 21 2011 18:32 GMT
#4007
Sounds like the "contract" was roof over your head and food.
Grimsong
Profile Joined August 2010
United States252 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-21 18:33:05
July 21 2011 18:32 GMT
#4008
On July 22 2011 03:29 jmbthirteen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 03:21 Grimsong wrote:
On July 22 2011 02:54 Jibba wrote:
On July 22 2011 02:45 JasKo wrote:
SOME of you are ridiculous do you not know how it works in real sports? the player normally goes to the highest bidder, loyalty is sometimes involved, but only when the money change wont make that much of a difference. What EG did wasn't shady, in fact, it is helping players to actually be able to make a living off of e sports. TSL could have offered more, but they couldn't. Why should Puma, and other players, be deprived of this opportunity?

That's not at all how it works in real sports.

What bothers me far more than the EG-TSL situation is all the idiots in this thread who chime in with an inane comment like "this is just like real sports!" when it actually isn't. Professional sports have an organized system of free agency whereby original teams generally get Right Of First Refusal on anyone that isn't an unrestricted free agent. That usually means that they can match or outbid other teams to retain their players. An unrestricted free agent is teamless. While these tiers don't exist in SC2 (yet), it's pretty clear Puma wasn't teamless. We don't know the details of TSL's contracts but it doesn't seem very strong or else it would have a NCC, but that still doesn't make someone an unrestricted free agent, and it still doesn't make this situation anything like professional sports or Lebron/Miami.


Hold on here. You're wrong. Here's why.

Rudy Fernandez is a professional basketball player. (Puma is a SC2 pro SC2 player)

He plays within the league, the NBA (Currently there is no equivalent to the NBA in SC2. But in a sense, you could say that Korea is a league. and North America is a league. Lets say that. I like it as an analogy.)

While Rudy Fernandez is being contracted within the NBA, Rudy Fernandez (While Puma was playing with TSL. We dont know 100% whether he is contracted or not, and even if he is, we dont know that the contract has the wording involved to legally stop something like this from happening, in Korea) was offered a contract from a team in Spain (a team that exists outside of the league, the NBA. EG, a team that exists outside of Korea).

The NBA did not fine, or go after, or threaten, the Spanish club that was offering Rudy a contract. Why? Because they aren't a part of their association. They can't pursue anything, realistically, because they aren't affiliated. The league cant impose any infractions because they are not related or under the same rules and regulations. Rudy signing a contract with Spain to play Basketball is equivalent to Rudy signing a contract with South Africa to go Alligator Hunting. It's his choice. He can do whatever he wants while still honoring his contract. If he chose to play in Spain, he would have to work out with his current team (Dallas Mavericks. TSL) how to work out the contract.

Whether it's them essentially waiving his contract (what TSL did to Puma, oh hello analogy), or sitting on it as it will be valid if he ever tries to re-enter the league, the NBA (whatever wording that contract he may have with TSL would be valid because he'd be re-entering that league,perse). That would have been up to Dallas/Rudy to sort out. But Spain had every right to offer the contract without asking Mark Cuban (the owner of the Dallas team) if he'd be ok with it.

And guess what? No one in the NBA gave a damn about it because this is a common occurence in the league.



You know the only reason Rudy is able to do this is the lockout right? Otherwise he would be voiding his contract with the mavs who would probably say, "hey you can't play in spain, you play for us". But since the nba is in a lockout, his contract is currently suspended and the league has no power over the players.


The contract was offered pre-lockout, NBA rules still applied, Mavs did not seek tampering lawsuit. Because they couldn't. It wasn't an NBA team trying to take a player from another NBA team. No constant governing body.

The mavs and rudy would have had to chalk out the remainder of the contract between them, but the Mavs could not stop Rudy from going to Spain if he chose to.

EDIT: And to even add fuel to the fire, obviously Puma didnt have a contract based on whats come out, so that point is moot.
FairForever
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada2392 Posts
July 21 2011 18:32 GMT
#4009
On July 22 2011 03:31 vyyye wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 03:31 hydra21 wrote:
From what I understand most Korean teams do not have contracts etc. Korean culture is very different than ours, and in Korea, a team would not have done what EG did. They have different concepts of duty and obligation and EG took advantage of that it would seem.

I'm everything but an expert on the BW scene but I'm quite sure they did have contracts and players had very little say in what they could or couldn't do.


Exactly. People saying "Oh Korea based on trust"... yeah okay there. Business decisions are business decisions, people in Asia still use contracts as far as I know.
Midgetman101
Profile Joined February 2011
United States825 Posts
July 21 2011 18:32 GMT
#4010
On July 22 2011 03:30 PBG wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 03:25 Ansinjunger wrote:
On July 22 2011 03:21 TheButtonmen wrote:
On July 22 2011 03:20 Milkis wrote:
On July 22 2011 03:19 TheButtonmen wrote:
On July 22 2011 03:18 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Well, Lee's given us his input. Now EG has to step up to the plate.


-shrug- It's pretty clear cut from their PoV.

Puma approchs them interested in joining.
EG finds out Puma has no contract.
EG does a happy dance.
EG signs Puma.
TSL does a sad dance.


puma did not approach them first, lol


How do you know?

EG says they were approched, TSL coach says EG approched Puma. It's a giant game of he said / she said so instead of dealing with that I just used the phrase from their PoV. I'm not making any bold claims about which side is bullshitting to save face.


That's fair enough, but coach Lee has a good reputation, and EG's is not as sterling.

What's amusing to me is that EG's known about this, or the possibility at least, since NASL finals 11 days ago and Sir Scoots just laughed at our collective absence of fact checking, while providing none himself.


and TSL has had what, 4 people in the last month "leave" or for a lack of a better word, not on TSL anymore? While you can say he has a "better" reputation than EG, there's still something going on at TSL to have that many people leave in such a short period of time.

In any case just poorly handed situation altogether really and it just seems like a big pissing contest with "he said this but I said this" garbage as we don't really know who to believe.

You look WAAAAAAY to hard into the people leaving TSL issue. Rain has been planning a move to the US for months and Fruitdealer and Trickster left with the coaches blessing the coach even helped them find a new team. What PuMa did was just kind of wrong :/
~Terran For Life~
-Frog-
Profile Joined February 2009
United States514 Posts
July 21 2011 18:32 GMT
#4011
On July 22 2011 03:30 sekritzzz wrote:
Wow teamEG is freaking messed up. Approaching puma and sen + which ever other players according to xeris and coach lee is desperate crap. Fox's approach to Fou was manly hence everyone's appreciation. EG's approach was disgusting


Disgusting?

What's disgusting is how few SC2 players actually earn enough money to make a living. Why should we look down on an organization like EG that can afford to pay their players a respectable wage. If more teams follow in their footsteps by needing to pay their players more to compete then that is all the better for "esports."
powered by coffee, driven by hate.
billyX333
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States1360 Posts
July 21 2011 18:32 GMT
#4012
EG claims that Puma approached them first regarding joining their team, but this is not true. As I know it, EG's owner contacted Puma first. Not only Puma, but other Korean players."

wow are you kidding me EG? if you are lying, way to put your player in an awkward spot. Lie for the organization and make yourself look bad or tell the truth and make the organization look bad?
alexhard
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden317 Posts
July 21 2011 18:33 GMT
#4013
On July 22 2011 03:30 PeZuY wrote:
Now what I'd like to see is EGs statement of this matter. But I dont really understand this fishing tactic that you try to get players from different teams, so silly and shady. I was wishing that this shit wasn't true but atleast for now I gotta believe TSL coach statement over EGs no comments at the moment. Disapointed EG fan here


Player transfers happen all the time, there's nothing fishy about it. EG acquired demuslim from mTw, nobody said it was fishy back then..
Hardigan
Profile Joined June 2011
Switzerland1297 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-21 18:33:44
July 21 2011 18:33 GMT
#4014
On July 22 2011 03:28 jiveturkey wrote:
So i see that the rumors about the TL community are indeed true. Mad about everything, drama queens, and plenty of white knighting. I now understand why everyone tells me to stay away from here.

You have to forgive them. They are just trying to save "Princess Esports" from the Evil leaue of Doom (=anything real or buisness related )
Vul
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States685 Posts
July 21 2011 18:33 GMT
#4015
On July 22 2011 03:25 Liudo wrote:
I want to make a general point about contracts. In contract law you do not need to have a piece of paper that is signed in order to have a legally enforcable contract, although that is of course by far and away the normal way a contract exists because it is the easiest way to prove a contract.

You can have an oral contract that is legally binding. It is harder to proove.

You can even have contracts that are not based in writing or in something that is said, but in practice.

So the theoretical legal position is not as cut as dried as people are describing.

This is of course completely unrelated to the facts of this individual case.

But you should bear in mind that just because nothing was written on paper did not mean that Puma and TSL did not have an understanding. Clearly they did have an understanding, because TSL provided shelter and food for Puma and Puma played under the TSL game-tag.

So all this nonsense that somehow there was nothing connecting Puma to TSL just because a contract is in disupte misses the point.

And also this talk of morality is so crude.

Morality has its place in law in the sense that law decides what is right and what is wrong.

So it is entirely legitimate to talk about what is right and wrong here. Trying to pin all of that on the existence or absence of a piece of paper really shows a complete missunderstanding of what law is for.



Law doesn't necessarily describe what is right and what is wrong. It isn't necessarily against the law to be racist or to have sex with someone who is in a romantic relationship, but many people would say that those things are wrong. Morality clearly covers right and wrong in a different context which isn't addressed by legality.
LuciferSC
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada535 Posts
July 21 2011 18:33 GMT
#4016
On July 22 2011 03:28 VPCursed wrote:
ok i want to know what the hell is the "Korean SC II association"
SC2 doesnt need another KESPA


You are going off-topic, but I cannot just let your opinion pass by uncorrected.

KesPa did a lot of good for BW.
BW would've not have grown to what it is today without KesPa.
Come get some
Angelbelow
Profile Joined September 2010
United States3728 Posts
July 21 2011 18:33 GMT
#4017
On July 22 2011 03:30 -Frog- wrote:
Here's an unknown:

When Puma told Manager Lee that he wanted to join EG had he already signed a contract with EG? If he had not then this is the opportunity for TSL to offer Puma a better deal than what he is getting with EG. And if that's the case then a fair transaction has taken place. Puma was offered a better salary and living conditions and because TSL had decided not to contract Puma they lost him.


I dont think TSL had a chance to counter offer TBH. I think what happened was that Puma was a free agent and he agreed to sign with EG, all of this without TSLs consent or knowledge.

However, I dont think TSL is capable of a counter offer. They lost 3 of their most successful players in a matter of weeks. Puma knows this. If TSL was such a family and such a nurturing place plus the fact that they can pay Puma, Puma wouldnt have left. This is all speculation though.
You may delay, but time will not. Current Music obsession: Opeth
nvs.
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada3609 Posts
July 21 2011 18:34 GMT
#4018
Still waiting on that statement EG!!


Don't worry, incontrol is all over it with his one of a kind wit and tact on twitter.

As many of you know something big has happened today. We at EG are proud to announce: Machine has received his Necron army in the mail.


Everyone is making a really big deal out of nothing. It's getting kinda gross... out of respect to EG please stop with the Necron hate.


EG's official statement on the whole "respect" issue is that while free to choose which army he wants to field @MachineUSA should be Orc.
Proko
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1022 Posts
July 21 2011 18:34 GMT
#4019
On July 22 2011 03:23 nvs. wrote:
Show nested quote +
other Western managers such as Xeris have confirmed that the EG manager was approaching many players, including Sen.


What the fuck. Trying to poach Sen and such too?? O_o


Yeah how dare they find good players and try and get them on their team it's HORRIBLE!

On July 22 2011 03:23 Nivity wrote:
And there it is, contracts in sc2.
It was just a matter of time, thanks to shit organizations like EG.
Never liked EG and now they sank even more, hope EG fail in future tours.


Contracts are the worst. I hate how they provide players with salaries and reliable futures and make for a more stable, interesting scene.

Seriously though, wut?
Caster duos should compliment each others' strengths. "You look very handsome today, Tasteless."
Adreme
Profile Joined June 2011
United States5574 Posts
July 21 2011 18:34 GMT
#4020
On July 22 2011 03:31 StarcraftKevin wrote:
Why didn't sir scoots approach the coach of the tsl for the player offer like fxo did with fou?


The 2 reasons for that are that 1 FXO didnt approach FOU, FOU approached FXO for sponsorships for foreign tournaments and FXO made a counter arrangement to buy the team. This brings me to point 2 which is that EG isnt trying to aquire TSL they just wanted Puma on there team.
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