|
On July 22 2011 03:30 Liudo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:27 Jibba wrote:On July 22 2011 03:21 JWD wrote:On July 22 2011 03:17 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 03:15 JWD wrote:
Thanks very much for that link guys. I'm going to update the OP with that information. Definitely suggests that there was some contract between TSL and PuMa, but who knows whether this incident implicates any of its terms. Coach Lee confirms that Puma had no contract. That certainly seems to be the implication of his first paragraph. If this is the case I can only say that I am surprised TSL would hang the security of its business venture on expectations (however strong) that players will always shy away from attractive offers purely because of an unwritten ethical code. Seriously, what were they thinking. >.> Even if they didn't pay Puma, providing food/housing/etc. is a basis for creating a contract. Even without NCC and all that other stuff, if they exists they could still seek damages. It's just so bizarre that they wouldn't have him sign anything in order to join the house. This. A contract is not always a piece of paper. It is normally a piece of paper because it is a convenient form to record an agreement and proove that agreement.
This is true and I think there definitely was a (verbal) contract. But the term is used differently in this thread.
You should replace in all the posts the word 'contract' by 'agreement about circumstances and deadlines concerning leaving the team'.
That's what people mean. They are just using the term contract for that even though it's not the ideal way to express it.
|
On July 22 2011 03:34 nvs. wrote:Don't worry, incontrol is all over it with his one of a kind wit and tact on twitter. Show nested quote +
As many of you know something big has happened today. We at EG are proud to announce: Machine has received his Necron army in the mail.
Show nested quote +Everyone is making a really big deal out of nothing. It's getting kinda gross... out of respect to EG please stop with the Necron hate. Show nested quote +EG's official statement on the whole "respect" issue is that while free to choose which army he wants to field @MachineUSA should be Orc.
LoL... Gotta Love em'
|
On July 22 2011 03:34 Thrax wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:32 billyX333 wrote:EG claims that Puma approached them first regarding joining their team, but this is not true. As I know it, EG's owner contacted Puma first. Not only Puma, but other Korean players."
wow are you kidding me EG? if you are lying, way to put your player in an awkward spot. Lie for the organization and make yourself look bad or tell the truth and make the organization look bad? I've read several times now that EG says Puma approached them. Where has EG said that? I've yet to see anything official from EG regarding this whole situation.
its in the OP and its according to coach lee
|
On July 22 2011 03:26 Grimsong wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:23 WhiteDog wrote:On July 22 2011 03:21 Grimsong wrote:On July 22 2011 02:54 Jibba wrote:On July 22 2011 02:45 JasKo wrote:
SOME of you are ridiculous do you not know how it works in real sports? the player normally goes to the highest bidder, loyalty is sometimes involved, but only when the money change wont make that much of a difference. What EG did wasn't shady, in fact, it is helping players to actually be able to make a living off of e sports. TSL could have offered more, but they couldn't. Why should Puma, and other players, be deprived of this opportunity? That's not at all how it works in real sports. What bothers me far more than the EG-TSL situation is all the idiots in this thread who chime in with an inane comment like "this is just like real sports!" when it actually isn't. Professional sports have an organized system of free agency whereby original teams generally get Right Of First Refusal on anyone that isn't an unrestricted free agent. That usually means that they can match or outbid other teams to retain their players. An unrestricted free agent is teamless. While these tiers don't exist in SC2 (yet), it's pretty clear Puma wasn't teamless. We don't know the details of TSL's contracts but it doesn't seem very strong or else it would have a NCC, but that still doesn't make someone an unrestricted free agent, and it still doesn't make this situation anything like professional sports or Lebron/Miami. Hold on here. You're wrong. Here's why. Rudy Fernandez is a professional basketball player. (Puma is a SC2 pro SC2 player) He plays within the league, the NBA (Currently there is no equivalent to the NBA in SC2. But in a sense, you could say that Korea is a league. and North America is a league. Lets say that. I like it as an analogy.) While Rudy Fernandez is being contracted within the NBA, Rudy Fernandez (While Puma was playing with TSL. We dont know 100% whether he is contracted or not, and even if he is, we dont know that the contract has the wording involved to legally stop something like this from happening, in Korea) was offered a contract from a team in Spain (a team that exists outside of the league, the NBA. EG, a team that exists outside of Korea). The NBA did not fine, or go after, or threaten, the Spanish club that was offering Rudy a contract. Why? Because they aren't a part of their association. They can't pursue anything, realistically, because they aren't affiliated. The league cant impose any infractions because they are not related or under the same rules and regulations. Rudy signing a contract with Spain to play Basketball is equivalent to Rudy signing a contract with South Africa to go Alligator Hunting. It's his choice. He can do whatever he wants while still honoring his contract. If he chose to play in Spain, he would have to work out with his current team (Dallas Mavericks. TSL) how to work out the contract. Whether it's them essentially waiving his contract (what TSL did to Puma, oh hello analogy), or sitting on it as it will be valid if he ever tries to re-enter the league, the NBA (whatever wording that contract he may have with TSL would be valid because he'd be re-entering that league,perse). That would have been up to Dallas/Rudy to sort out. But Spain had every right to offer the contract without asking Mark Cuban (the owner of the Dallas team) if he'd be ok with it. And guess what? No one in the NBA gave a damn about it because this is a common occurence in the league. You are wrong, there are many post before that explain exactly how it work in real sports, just read them. Im right. This happened. You're wrong is worthless, do you want links backing my claim up from ESPN? Are you kidding me? I know how it works in real sports, do you? Do you talk about sports hours daily, follow it closely, and have a bachelors in business? Show me how what I said didnt happen, because it literally did happen, about a month ago at that. Get back to me when you have facts.
LoL? No you are wrong... you are making a comparaison between two different system : one structured legally (NBA) and one yet almost free from any regulation (e-sport)...
Someone already told you that your exemple is off track. Transaction in NBA are reglemented period.
Having a bachelor in business and talking about it doesn't quite make the cut when you can't make the difference between two situation...
|
On July 22 2011 03:28 j3i wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:22 Soap wrote:"It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts. So the korean SC2 scene is being run by amateurs, no wonder it isn't exactly thriving. This is new. The Korean sc2 scene being called amateurs. wow
They are. Their skill in high, but the actual leagues and teams themselves are certainly amateur, especially compared to a team like EG, which from a management standpoint is more in line with Korean Brood War teams with strong corporate interests. You have to remember that SC2 is still really young and not all that large in Korea. The team system is basically a loosely affiliated group of ragtag organizations. There's no real governing body to regulate these things like KeSPA did in Brood War although this particular event might spark the creation of such a true regulating body in response.
|
On July 22 2011 03:34 TBO wrote:
does anyone know how common oral or even implied-in-fact contracts are in Korea? (I mean staying on a team for months, getting accomodation and food, maybe even a salary can very much be considered as a contractual relationship even without a contract in some countries as far as I know)
1) TSL would probably have to litigate in USA, so Korean law might not apply here. I'm not familiar enough with international law and Korea as a country so I wouldn't know. It wouldn't make much business sense and a lot of it would be based on word-of-mouth, so I don't think TSL would have a very strong case to make regardless.
2) The proof is really the fact that both TSL and Puma agreed to a long-term relationship. TSL has to prove that when they provided food/lodging to Puma, it was intended to be for X amount of time. This will prove to be impossible, X cannot be infinite (thereby limiting Puma of all future career options, which is against the law). As such, unless TSL can set X to a certain time period and prove that it was understood by Puma, there would be no basis for a challenge in court.
|
I'll hold my final thoughts until we see a release from EG/Scoots, but some of the actions that EG has taken in the past few months have seem pretty sketchy.
|
On July 22 2011 03:35 GreEny K wrote:
Wow, he states that EG approached multiple Koreans and they even lied about Puma approaching them first... I just keep getting more and more amazed at the shaddy dealings EG approves. I went from no respect for EG, to disliking them and now I just can't stand them.
Can anyone link to where EG talks about PuMa approaching them first?
|
On July 22 2011 03:35 Lucidity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:21 Grimsong wrote:On July 22 2011 02:54 Jibba wrote:On July 22 2011 02:45 JasKo wrote:
SOME of you are ridiculous do you not know how it works in real sports? the player normally goes to the highest bidder, loyalty is sometimes involved, but only when the money change wont make that much of a difference. What EG did wasn't shady, in fact, it is helping players to actually be able to make a living off of e sports. TSL could have offered more, but they couldn't. Why should Puma, and other players, be deprived of this opportunity? That's not at all how it works in real sports. What bothers me far more than the EG-TSL situation is all the idiots in this thread who chime in with an inane comment like "this is just like real sports!" when it actually isn't. Professional sports have an organized system of free agency whereby original teams generally get Right Of First Refusal on anyone that isn't an unrestricted free agent. That usually means that they can match or outbid other teams to retain their players. An unrestricted free agent is teamless. While these tiers don't exist in SC2 (yet), it's pretty clear Puma wasn't teamless. We don't know the details of TSL's contracts but it doesn't seem very strong or else it would have a NCC, but that still doesn't make someone an unrestricted free agent, and it still doesn't make this situation anything like professional sports or Lebron/Miami. Hold on here. You're wrong. Here's why. Rudy Fernandez is a professional basketball player. (Puma is a SC2 pro SC2 player) He plays within the league, the NBA (Currently there is no equivalent to the NBA in SC2. But in a sense, you could say that Korea is a league. and North America is a league. Lets say that. I like it as an analogy.) While Rudy Fernandez is being contracted within the NBA, Rudy Fernandez (While Puma was playing with TSL. We dont know 100% whether he is contracted or not, and even if he is, we dont know that the contract has the wording involved to legally stop something like this from happening, in Korea) was offered a contract from a team in Spain (a team that exists outside of the league, the NBA. EG, a team that exists outside of Korea). The NBA did not fine, or go after, or threaten, the Spanish club that was offering Rudy a contract. Why? Because they aren't a part of their association. They can't pursue anything, realistically, because they aren't affiliated. The league cant impose any infractions because they are not related or under the same rules and regulations. Rudy signing a contract with Spain to play Basketball is equivalent to Rudy signing a contract with South Africa to go Alligator Hunting. It's his choice. He can do whatever he wants while still honoring his contract. If he chose to play in Spain, he would have to work out with his current team (Dallas Mavericks. TSL) how to work out the contract. Whether it's them essentially waiving his contract (what TSL did to Puma, oh hello analogy), or sitting on it as it will be valid if he ever tries to re-enter the league, the NBA (whatever wording that contract he may have with TSL would be valid because he'd be re-entering that league,perse). That would have been up to Dallas/Rudy to sort out. But Spain had every right to offer the contract without asking Mark Cuban (the owner of the Dallas team) if he'd be ok with it. And guess what? No one in the NBA gave a damn about it because this is a common occurence in the league. Alligators are only native to the United States and China. (And we don't hunt crocodiles here.) As for your NBA analogy. What utter horseshit. Contract law doesn't simply disappear when someone outside of your league offers you another contract. I'm sure you don't follow soccer, but if you did you'd know that CLUBS have to accept offers from other clubs if those clubs are interested in buying a player. The player can't go to any club that offers him a contract all willy-nilly, whether the club is in another league, another country or another continent. "Can't pursue coz they're not affiliated". What a laugh!
Again, its true. Not an analogy or anecdote, it's what happened.
|
This thread makes me want to go to law school. That's definitely a first.
|
On July 22 2011 03:34 nvs. wrote:Don't worry, incontrol is all over it with his one of a kind wit and tact on twitter. Show nested quote +
As many of you know something big has happened today. We at EG are proud to announce: Machine has received his Necron army in the mail.
Show nested quote +Everyone is making a really big deal out of nothing. It's getting kinda gross... out of respect to EG please stop with the Necron hate. Show nested quote +EG's official statement on the whole "respect" issue is that while free to choose which army he wants to field @MachineUSA should be Orc.
haha, those are awsome 
It really isnt a big deal guys
|
On July 22 2011 03:36 bokchoi wrote:
Looks like TSL had their salaries cut or removed. In light of FD and TricksteR leaving I thought that freed up 50k+ in salary a year, but I guess not. Doubt EG would compete with 20,000+ salary + living expenses + great practice environment. Then again maybe they can.. I'm excited and weary about this whole thing. Excited because that means we'll see more PuMa, weary because without high-level practice partners to constantly practice with, talk to, and bounce ideas off PuMa's skills may not stay in tip top shape/form. I would've liked to see EG do some kind of partnership deal with a Korean team, somewhere in the middle the deals between oGs-TL and oGs-SK.
he can still easily have high-level practice partners with EG/Korean ladder/Top korean partners that most koreans practice with.
|
On July 22 2011 03:35 kakaman wrote:
Wait I can't imagine all Korean teams running on "trust" and no contracts? Is this SC2 specific? What prevents EG from offering $1mm a year to Flash to switch to SC2?
its only is SC2 scene.
SC2 in korea is still very small.
SC1 on the other hand, they have Kespa/players association and have solid binding contracts to all players
|
Here's a funny conversation:
- So, would you at some point in time be interested in joining a foreign team?
- Sure, I would love that, I want to travel and see more of the world before I settle down, and I think e-sports are growing abroad, and I could own nerds so hard there because koreans own white dudes.
- Excellent. If you don't mind me asking, for how long is your current contract with your team?
- I don't have a contract at the moment.
...
I just don't see how we would, without further information, know anything that states EG have done anthing shady at all. It's just speculation ... without any basis in facts. As far as I can tell.
That said, a team named Evil Geniuses ... name speaks for itself ! hehe
|
On July 22 2011 03:36 RusHXceL wrote:
Does Puma even speak English lol. I wonder how EG will talk to Puma in the house.
My money says he stays in Korea and the point of him joining EG is to get a yearly salary and stable sponsorship fees for traveling to foreign tournies.
Although I'm sure the contract is going to make him play at reasonable times in Korea to U.S. time zones to practice with EG and play team league events as well.
|
On July 22 2011 03:35 GreEny K wrote:
Wow, he states that EG approached multiple Koreans and they even lied about Puma approaching them first... I just keep getting more and more amazed at the shaddy dealings EG approves. I went from no respect for EG, to disliking them and now I just can't stand them.
But where are your sources that says he's lying? If Puma comes out tomorrow and says that "I approached EG first", are you going to facepalm.
But of course ya know, Milkis keeps saying "he has his sources" but doesn't disclose any of them.
It's business.
One side lost. One side won.
Priority lying in morality is naive in business practices these days.
|
On July 22 2011 03:36 alexhard wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:31 StarcraftKevin wrote:
Why didn't sir scoots approach the coach of the tsl for the player offer like fxo did with fou? Because PuMa was, contractually speaking, not a TSL player. There's nothing to talk about with the TSL owners, sine the player isn't theirs.
yeah, so basically the majority of the the starcraft 2 progamers are not in a team contractually speaking.
what?
|
For people that keep saying this is the business move so no moral or cultural talks should be involved.
Please note that on Live On Three, sirScoots defended SlayersJessica overreaction ( I am not implying Slayers Jessica was overreacting on that matter) on the SlayersEve incident. He stated about the cultural difference between western and Korea. We have to respect that and hence understand Jessica actions. Well now he does exactly the opposite of what he said.
|
So... did EG state that Puma approached them? Or was that just what the TSL guy said? Also, seeing as how there is no contract, EG is not in the wrong at all. They don't have any sort of moral obligation to inform TSL, sure Puma maybe should have talked to the coaches about the offer he got, but really if TSL is not paying him why would he stay?
|
On July 22 2011 03:37 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:26 Grimsong wrote:On July 22 2011 03:23 WhiteDog wrote:On July 22 2011 03:21 Grimsong wrote:On July 22 2011 02:54 Jibba wrote:On July 22 2011 02:45 JasKo wrote:
SOME of you are ridiculous do you not know how it works in real sports? the player normally goes to the highest bidder, loyalty is sometimes involved, but only when the money change wont make that much of a difference. What EG did wasn't shady, in fact, it is helping players to actually be able to make a living off of e sports. TSL could have offered more, but they couldn't. Why should Puma, and other players, be deprived of this opportunity? That's not at all how it works in real sports. What bothers me far more than the EG-TSL situation is all the idiots in this thread who chime in with an inane comment like "this is just like real sports!" when it actually isn't. Professional sports have an organized system of free agency whereby original teams generally get Right Of First Refusal on anyone that isn't an unrestricted free agent. That usually means that they can match or outbid other teams to retain their players. An unrestricted free agent is teamless. While these tiers don't exist in SC2 (yet), it's pretty clear Puma wasn't teamless. We don't know the details of TSL's contracts but it doesn't seem very strong or else it would have a NCC, but that still doesn't make someone an unrestricted free agent, and it still doesn't make this situation anything like professional sports or Lebron/Miami. Hold on here. You're wrong. Here's why. Rudy Fernandez is a professional basketball player. (Puma is a SC2 pro SC2 player) He plays within the league, the NBA (Currently there is no equivalent to the NBA in SC2. But in a sense, you could say that Korea is a league. and North America is a league. Lets say that. I like it as an analogy.) While Rudy Fernandez is being contracted within the NBA, Rudy Fernandez (While Puma was playing with TSL. We dont know 100% whether he is contracted or not, and even if he is, we dont know that the contract has the wording involved to legally stop something like this from happening, in Korea) was offered a contract from a team in Spain (a team that exists outside of the league, the NBA. EG, a team that exists outside of Korea). The NBA did not fine, or go after, or threaten, the Spanish club that was offering Rudy a contract. Why? Because they aren't a part of their association. They can't pursue anything, realistically, because they aren't affiliated. The league cant impose any infractions because they are not related or under the same rules and regulations. Rudy signing a contract with Spain to play Basketball is equivalent to Rudy signing a contract with South Africa to go Alligator Hunting. It's his choice. He can do whatever he wants while still honoring his contract. If he chose to play in Spain, he would have to work out with his current team (Dallas Mavericks. TSL) how to work out the contract. Whether it's them essentially waiving his contract (what TSL did to Puma, oh hello analogy), or sitting on it as it will be valid if he ever tries to re-enter the league, the NBA (whatever wording that contract he may have with TSL would be valid because he'd be re-entering that league,perse). That would have been up to Dallas/Rudy to sort out. But Spain had every right to offer the contract without asking Mark Cuban (the owner of the Dallas team) if he'd be ok with it. And guess what? No one in the NBA gave a damn about it because this is a common occurence in the league. You are wrong, there are many post before that explain exactly how it work in real sports, just read them. Im right. This happened. You're wrong is worthless, do you want links backing my claim up from ESPN? Are you kidding me? I know how it works in real sports, do you? Do you talk about sports hours daily, follow it closely, and have a bachelors in business? Show me how what I said didnt happen, because it literally did happen, about a month ago at that. Get back to me when you have facts. LoL? No you are wrong... you are making a comparaison between two different system : one structured legally (NBA) and one yet almost free from any regulation (e-sport)... Someone already told you that your exemple is off track. Transaction in NBA are reglemented period. Having a bachelor in business and talking about it doesn't quite make the cut when you can't make the difference between two situation...
It's the same thing. Teams, players, leagues, contracts. I fail to see whats different besides the medium.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
