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Proko
United States1022 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:32 vilehelm wrote: Sounds like the "contract" was roof over your head and food. Yes because the players clearly aren't the one making the team viable and earning the sponsors through their play, publicity and fans. I mean coach lee doesn't need the players at all. | ||
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Ome
Canada157 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:36 Ownos wrote: What part of "contacting the original team regarding a transfer is a natural courtesy" do people not get? This isn't about contracts! Do competing businesses in the real world contact each other as a courtesy and let them know they're trying to hire their good workers from each other? I seriously doubt any business in South Korea calls up their competition and lets them know beforehand that they are going to offer one of their workers a package to come work for them. If that's not the case in the SC2 teams, that's unfortunate, but very naive of the team managers. | ||
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JinDesu
United States3990 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:31 SourD wrote: actually sc2 teams in korea atleast at the management level does seem to be a bit amateurish. little or no solid infrastructure built in.. ...really, what makes you say that? Is there something wrong with running on trust and faith? It worked for all the korean teams until a foreign team stepped in and basically ruined it. And for those people saying "contracts are necessary, oh they should have a contract, blah blah" - THIS event is the reason why sport associations require contracts and punish player poaching. Also, for those of you who say "oh in the west, we work based on money only, player poaching is totally normal" - if that's true, then why are there rules against player poaching? It's still wrong. On July 22 2011 03:39 Ome wrote: Do competing businesses in the real world contact each other as a courtesy and let them know they're trying to hire their good workers from each other? I seriously doubt any business in South Korea calls up their competition and lets them know beforehand that they are going to offer one of their workers are package to come work for them. If that's not the case in the SC2 teams, that's unfortunate, but very naive of the team managers. Hi. When a business headhunts a person, often times the original company will shun (and ask it's associates to also shun) the headhunters AND the headhunted. So as long as you're fine with all of Korea shunning Puma, then you can use that analogy. And don't call people who believe in good things that has worked for them, naive, if you are jaded. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15688 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:36 alexhard wrote: Because PuMa was, contractually speaking, not a TSL player. There's nothing to talk about with the TSL owners, sine the player isn't theirs. Its a culture clash. This sort of behavior is downright deplorable in Korea to the point where no team that has any dignity would do it, but that's simply not the case to the Western world. Not to say the West has it "wrong", just saying that this would not happen with a Korean team. | ||
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Grimsong
United States252 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:38 Namu wrote: yeah, so basically the majority of the the starcraft 2 progamers are not in a team contractually speaking. what? And this is true. Unless youre contractually signed somewhere, you're not contractually signed somewhere. What's to talk about in regards to that? | ||
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Thrax
Canada1755 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:37 billyX333 wrote: its in the OP and its according to coach lee So: 1. Coach Lee says EG said that Puma approached them. 2. EG hasn't said anything public, so EG must have spoken to Coach Lee? 3. Coach Lee says EG didn't contact them Does not compute | ||
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[Atomic]Peace
United States451 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:34 TBO wrote: does anyone know how common oral or even implied-in-fact contracts are in Korea? (I mean staying on a team for months, getting accomodation and food, maybe even a salary can very much be considered as a contractual relationship even without a contract in some countries as far as I know) This is correct in the United States. If TSL could prove that they suffered damages because they were relying on having Puma as a player they could try sue Puma for the damages. No written contract necessary. In effect, Puma accepted a contract by living in the team house and using the other benefits of the team. I'm pretty sure the court would not compel Puma to stay on TSL though, they would just award damages. IANAL though, I've just read a few hornbooks. | ||
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JKira
Canada1002 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:32 Grimsong wrote: The contract was offered pre-lockout, NBA rules still applied, Mavs did not seek tampering lawsuit. Because they couldn't. It wasn't an NBA team trying to take a player from another NBA team. No constant governing body. The mavs and rudy would have had to chalk out the remainder of the contract between them, but the Mavs could not stop Rudy from going to Spain if he chose to. EDIT: And to even add fuel to the fire, obviously Puma didnt have a contract based on whats come out, so that point is moot. I think Mavs didn't pursue lawsuit or get angry because it was just Rudy Fernandez :p | ||
JWD
United States12607 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:34 TBO wrote: does anyone know how common oral or even implied-in-fact contracts are in Korea? (I mean staying on a team for months, getting accomodation and food, maybe even a salary can very much be considered as a contractual relationship even without a contract in some countries as far as I know) I don't know what the law is in Korea, but based on my (decent) knowledge of U.S. contract law I would be very surprised if any court would recognize an implied contract here that would prevent PuMa from talking to other teams or switching to another team. U.S. courts are quite hostile to oral and especially implied contracts; the thinking is (and it's smart thinking) that if the parties really wanted to bind themselves, they would have written their terms out. And I mean, the argument that PuMa committed never to switch to another SC2 team by accepting payment for his services at TSL is pretty absurd on its face. Edit: [Atomic]Peace what you are missing (I am pretty sure, and with all respect) is that to recover on any implied contract here, TSL would need to show not only that there was an implied agreement to exchange food etc. for playing services but also that the agreement included a NCC preventing PuMa from doing what he did here. That's a big stretch, to say the least. | ||
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qubee
Netherlands39 Posts
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-Frog-
United States514 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:33 Angelbelow wrote: I dont think TSL had a chance to counter offer TBH. I think what happened was that Puma was a free agent and he agreed to sign with EG, all of this without TSLs consent or knowledge. However, I dont think TSL is capable of a counter offer. They lost 3 of their most successful players in a matter of weeks. Puma knows this. If TSL was such a family and such a nurturing place plus the fact that they can pay Puma, Puma wouldnt have left. This is all speculation though. My point is we have no idea if they had a chance to counter offer or not so it's not right for us to speculate until we're certain. As for your second point: Losing Trickster and Fruitdealer clears up around $60k worth of salary for them to offer to Puma as a counter. That's a lot of money which leads us to think one of three things 1) EG is offering even more than that. 2) TSL didn't have a chance to counter offer. 3) TSL was too tight with their money and didnt want to give it to Puma. It might be that there was something wrong with the culture of the team but none of us can really comment on that. | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:21 Grimsong wrote: You're right (although in this case EG is essentially independent and TSL is part of an organization) but that's not the analogy people are making using Lebron or Champions' teams. + Show Spoiler + On July 22 2011 02:54 Jibba wrote: That's not at all how it works in real sports. What bothers me far more than the EG-TSL situation is all the idiots in this thread who chime in with an inane comment like "this is just like real sports!" when it actually isn't. Professional sports have an organized system of free agency whereby original teams generally get Right Of First Refusal on anyone that isn't an unrestricted free agent. That usually means that they can match or outbid other teams to retain their players. An unrestricted free agent is teamless. While these tiers don't exist in SC2 (yet), it's pretty clear Puma wasn't teamless. We don't know the details of TSL's contracts but it doesn't seem very strong or else it would have a NCC, but that still doesn't make someone an unrestricted free agent, and it still doesn't make this situation anything like professional sports or Lebron/Miami. Hold on here. You're wrong. Here's why. Rudy Fernandez is a professional basketball player. (Puma is a SC2 pro SC2 player) He plays within the league, the NBA (Currently there is no equivalent to the NBA in SC2. But in a sense, you could say that Korea is a league. and North America is a league. Lets say that. I like it as an analogy.) While Rudy Fernandez is being contracted within the NBA, Rudy Fernandez (While Puma was playing with TSL. We dont know 100% whether he is contracted or not, and even if he is, we dont know that the contract has the wording involved to legally stop something like this from happening, in Korea) was offered a contract from a team in Spain (a team that exists outside of the league, the NBA. EG, a team that exists outside of Korea). The NBA did not fine, or go after, or threaten, the Spanish club that was offering Rudy a contract. Why? Because they aren't a part of their association. They can't pursue anything, realistically, because they aren't affiliated. The league cant impose any infractions because they are not related or under the same rules and regulations. Rudy signing a contract with Spain to play Basketball is equivalent to Rudy signing a contract with South Africa to go Alligator Hunting. It's his choice. He can do whatever he wants while still honoring his contract. If he chose to play in Spain, he would have to work out with his current team (Dallas Mavericks. TSL) how to work out the contract. Whether it's them essentially waiving his contract (what TSL did to Puma, oh hello analogy), or sitting on it as it will be valid if he ever tries to re-enter the league, the NBA (whatever wording that contract he may have with TSL would be valid because he'd be re-entering that league,perse). That would have been up to Dallas/Rudy to sort out. But Spain had every right to offer the contract without asking Mark Cuban (the owner of the Dallas team) if he'd be ok with it. And guess what? No one in the NBA gave a damn about it because this is a common occurence in the league. | ||
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PBG
40 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:32 Midgetman101 wrote: You look WAAAAAAY to hard into the people leaving TSL issue. Rain has been planning a move to the US for months and Fruitdealer and Trickster left with the coaches blessing the coach even helped them find a new team. What PuMa did was just kind of wrong :/ and much like Puma, TSL provided for all of those players and I quote from coach lee "where we provided him and his teammates with a good practice environment, food, etc, and developed him as a player." and look what happend to all of those players. So much for trust and loyalty right? Like I said terribly handled situation all around and I find the way of not having a contract baffling -but what do we really know, we still don't know all of the facts and people are already crying out bloody murder with their pitchforks. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:36 bonifaceviii wrote: Hey can I have your car? I'll pay you later. Oh don't worry about getting it in writing, I'm Korean. Our culture is based on trust. Yeah way to ridicule another culture, coming from one that's increasingly based on selfishness, greed and lack of respect and morality. You've really got a high ground there. -_- Seriously, the amount of people posting something that's basically the equivalent of "lol morals" and feeling happy and superior about it is disturbing to say the least. | ||
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Snorkle
United States1648 Posts
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TheButtonmen
Canada1401 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:39 JinDesu wrote: ...really, what makes you say that? Is there something wrong with running on trust and faith? Yes. Running a business off "trust and faith" isn't going to get you very far. | ||
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confusedcrib
United States1307 Posts
The end result of the trade is that Puma gets payed more money, and last time I checked, players getting payed more money was a good thing. Lee Woon Jae has no grounds on which to get the Korean SCII association involved, as all that will possibly do is create a disincentive to trade players resulting in players getting payed less money. This is not an argument, it is economic fact, Lee Woon Jae could be cause the most damage to a blossoming e-sport of any single person so far. | ||
Mr Showtime
United States1353 Posts
On July 21 2011 15:00 Milkis wrote: Update: TSL Coach Lee Woon Jae explains his stance Coach Lee Woon Jae of TSL talked with TeamLiquid, trying to clear up some of the misunderstandings while explaining the situation from his point of view: "It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts. I'm sorry, but that's just downright stupid. You should know that stuff like this is going to happen if you don't have contracts. This a business and a full time job for these players. Relying on "trust and faith" is quite idiotic to put it bluntly. Hopefully this is a good lesson to all teams and managers out there. | ||
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nOlifeTERRAN
United States153 Posts
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seoul_kiM
United States545 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:38 thanhbao86 wrote: For people that keep saying this is the business move so no moral or cultural talks should be involved. Please note that on Live On Three, sirScoots defended SlayersJessica overreaction ( I am not implying Slayers Jessica was overreacting on that matter) on the SlayersEve incident. He stated about the cultural difference between western and Korea. We have to respect that and hence understand Jessica actions. Well now he does exactly the opposite of what he said. What does slander, defamation, and harassment have to do with business trade? | ||
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