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Puma leaves TSL for EG - Page 206
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Bedrock
United States395 Posts
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legaton
France1763 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:38 thanhbao86 wrote: For people that keep saying this is the business move so no moral or cultural talks should be involved. Please note that on Live On Three, sirScoots defended SlayersJessica overreaction ( I am not implying Slayers Jessica was overreacting on that matter) on the SlayersEve incident. He stated about the cultural difference between western and Korea. We have to respect that and hence understand Jessica actions. Well now he does exactly the opposite of what he said. This anecdote just show how weak the "cultural relativism" argument is. You could argue the korean team should accept without complaining what just happened because the american "culture" only recognize formal As a side note, EG/EG-players seems to always be at the center of shit-storms. Their management should try to be more sensible about what they do and the potential reactions of the SC2 community because they are starting to look bad. Edit: hahaha, oh wow, what a freudian lapsus, wrote moral instead of formal | ||
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Telebear
United Kingdom107 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:39 JinDesu wrote: ...really, what makes you say that? Is there something wrong with running on trust and faith?. yes, because in business people are always going to look for ways to get ahead that dont rely upon trust and faith and running purely on trust and faith just gives your competitors an advantage | ||
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Tomken
Norway1144 Posts
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Liudo
United Kingdom344 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:39 Ome wrote: Do competing businesses in the real world contact each other as a courtesy and let them know they're trying to hire their good workers from each other? I seriously doubt any business in South Korea calls up their competition and lets them know beforehand that they are going to offer one of their workers a package to come work for them. If that's not the case in the SC2 teams, that's unfortunate, but very naive of the team managers. Do you know anyone who works in headhunting? I do, and I can tell you some of the stuff they get up to can be pretty shady. Headhunting has not exactly got a wonderful reputation, so appealing to that is not a great defence I think. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:41 KingTony wrote: GET EG IN GSTL NOWWWWWWWWWW lol yeah sure that's gonna happen, especially after this little incident. | ||
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Falcor
Canada894 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:41 KingTony wrote: GET EG IN GSTL NOWWWWWWWWWW Seriously, if what the TSL Coach says about EG approaching players from other teams is true, EG in the GSTL would be hella drama exciting! because they have one player that can compete vs koreans....riiiiiite | ||
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Angelbelow
United States3728 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:39 JinDesu wrote: ...really, what makes you say that? Is there something wrong with running on trust and faith? It worked for all the korean teams until a foreign team stepped in and basically ruined it. And for those people saying "contracts are necessary, oh they should have a contract, blah blah" - THIS event is the reason why sport associations require contracts and punish player poaching. Also, for those of you who say "oh in the west, we work based on money only, player poaching is totally normal" - if that's true, then why are there rules against player poaching? It's still wrong. In what sport or business would running a team on trust and faith work? If they really only run on trust and faith, then I think it was just a matter of time. If it wasnt EG it was gonna be someone else. I think TSL kept their players happy by giving them salaries but i think so somewhere along the line they lost their sponsors or their salary option for the players. Now half their team is gone. | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:42 isbunk wrote: EG are as always, unprofessional. This is the kind of thing that will ruin eSports. Their HoN-team was as shady as the rest of the unprofessional douchebags within that orga. From now on EG is dead to me, more dead then Derek Zoolanders dead mother. Good day. Yeah I know! I mean, PuMa actually getting a fair wage for being one of the better players in the world? Deplorable! Terrible for E-Sports! | ||
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shtdisturbance
Canada613 Posts
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seoul_kiM
United States545 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:42 isbunk wrote: EG are as always, unprofessional. This is the kind of thing that will ruin eSports. Their HoN-team was as shady as the rest of the unprofessional douchebags within that orga. From now on EG is dead to me, more dead then Derek Zoolanders dead mother. Good day. Yea, I'm sure EG cares about 1 guy in Sweden calling their Hon-Team shady. Get it through your head, it's business and it happens everyday. It happens between the companies that build your computer, mouse, keyboard, monitor, so in turn, you should stop using that as well. Malpractice suits in business is so common. Honestly why do you think they made things such as patents in the first place? | ||
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isbunk
Sweden1017 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:43 JinDesu wrote: Except that this method WORKED FOR THEM until a FOREIGN TEAM took a player. Relying on "trust and faith" in a society that highly prides honor and family is not idiotic. Polish crap into gold is not the same as stealing gold to profit form it. What the korens did was make the foreigners better. I doubt that he'll become a better player with EG then TSL. | ||
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TBO
Germany1350 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:43 FairForever wrote: This is the crux. Unless TSL can show that PuMa had an oral agreement to stay for a determinable, finite and reasonable period of time (reasonable being something not like 50 years), there isn't even a way to start the argument. I agree that it would be hilarious to assume he committed to never switch teams, however he is leaving TSL in mid-season of GSTL, where he played games in. Usually if you play in a league you don't switch teams mid-season. | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:30 FairForever wrote: No it isn't. There is clearly no contract here. Unless there was a verbal understanding that Puma would stay for an extended period of time. The service TSL provided Puma was the food/housing/etc. The service TSL received was ability to use Puma in Team Leagues, Puma representing them, etc. for the time that Puma was there. Nowhere in there does it suggest that TSL and Puma are in a long-term relationship. If it was then one could say the relationship must be extended indefinitely, right? It doesn't need to be an extended period of time. It just needs to be "we'll provide you with X services in exchange for Y service." | ||
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jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:32 Grimsong wrote: The contract was offered pre-lockout, NBA rules still applied, Mavs did not seek tampering lawsuit. Because they couldn't. It wasn't an NBA team trying to take a player from another NBA team. No constant governing body. The mavs and rudy would have had to chalk out the remainder of the contract between them, but the Mavs could not stop Rudy from going to Spain if he chose to. EDIT: And to even add fuel to the fire, obviously Puma didnt have a contract based on whats come out, so that point is moot. Well you're wrong. The contract may have been offered pre lockout, but it wasn't even accepted so... http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/nba/news/story?id=6738790 If rudy had signed with the team in spain and the league wasn't in the lockout, the mavs could have prevented him from leaving, but with the lockout they have no power. | ||
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:41 Mr Showtime wrote: I'm sorry, but that's just downright stupid. You should know that stuff like this is going to happen if you don't have contracts. This a business and a full time job for these players. Relying on "trust and faith" is quite idiotic to put it bluntly. Hopefully this is a good lesson to all teams and managers out there. That's just it, this doesn't happen in Korea. | ||
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farnham
1378 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:43 StarcraftKevin wrote: My question is then why didn't eg approach tsl for player buyout? Was it because puma wasn't legally bound to tsl? looks like it EG would have approached TSL if they had a contract with Puma in place with a termination term and a penalty for breach of contract in place. If that was the case Puma wouldnt have been able to go to EG so freely. But as Puma was not bound legally to EG he just left without any consequence. its a omission of TSL and if anything TSL should kick themselves. | ||
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vojnik
Macedonia923 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:45 TBO wrote: I agree that it would be hilarious to assume he committed to never switch teams, however he is leaving TSL in mid-season of GSTL, where he played games in. Usually if you play in a league you don't switch teams mid-season. Trickster. Fruitdealer? | ||
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[Atomic]Peace
United States451 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:40 JWD wrote: I don't know what the law is in Korea, but based on my (pretty good) knowledge of U.S. contract law I would be very surprised if any court would recognize an implied contract here that would prevent PuMa from talking to other teams or switching to another team. U.S. courts are quite hostile to oral and especially implied contracts; the thinking is (and it's smart thinking) that if the parties really wanted to bind themselves, they would have written their terms out. And I mean, the argument that PuMa committed never to switch to another SC2 team by accepting payment for his services at TSL is pretty absurd on its face. Edit: [Atomic]Peace what you are missing (I am pretty sure, and with all respect) is that to recover on any implied contract here, TSL would need to show not only that there was an implied agreement to exchange food etc. for playing services but also that the agreement included a NCC preventing PuMa from doing what he did here. That's a big stretch, to say the least. I agree with your analysis. Like I said, I do not think the court would compel Puma to remain on TSL because there is nothing here that suggests a NCC. But I do think an argument could be made that TSL suffered damages because Puma has not played for them (loss of sponsorship, Puma took up some of the coaches time, etc). Essentially we can view this as a business who housed and trained an employee and then the employee moved to another company. Without a NCC the move is allowed, but the employer still suffered damages. I think TSL would be entitled to recover these damages from Puma. After all, if the coach spent 2 hours per day on Puma when he could have been training someone else, that represets a very real cost to the team. EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it, it is even more complex. One could argue Puma had finished the training phase and was already working for TSL. He has represented them in tournaments perhaps. If one argues that Puma has already served as an employee for TSL, to counter that you would have to show that there was an expected amount of time that Puma was expected to work for. If for example, the coaches were working with him for a season of GSL and Puma didn't stay though the season. | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:43 zeru wrote: Im wondering what the korean players association is saying about this, or if they even are saying anything at all. Because Korean players aren't stupid, each player knows he could be next to get an offer that is probably 10x better than what he's getting in Korea. My guess: PuMa gets virtually no salary, is a practice partner. Qualifies for NASL and wins. EG approaches him. Has part of his NASL winnings taken by TSL. Fair enough. Realizes he can have a higher base salary and probably 100% of prize money by switching to EG. What kind of player would not make that switch? | ||
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