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On July 22 2011 03:44 Angelbelow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:39 JinDesu wrote:On July 22 2011 03:31 SourD wrote:On July 22 2011 03:28 j3i wrote:On July 22 2011 03:22 Soap wrote:"It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts. So the korean SC2 scene is being run by amateurs, no wonder it isn't exactly thriving. This is new. The Korean sc2 scene being called amateurs. wow actually sc2 teams in korea atleast at the management level does seem to be a bit amateurish. little or no solid infrastructure built in.. ...really, what makes you say that? Is there something wrong with running on trust and faith? It worked for all the korean teams until a foreign team stepped in and basically ruined it. And for those people saying "contracts are necessary, oh they should have a contract, blah blah" - THIS event is the reason why sport associations require contracts and punish player poaching. Also, for those of you who say "oh in the west, we work based on money only, player poaching is totally normal" - if that's true, then why are there rules against player poaching? It's still wrong. In what sport or business would running a team on trust and faith work? If they really only run on trust and faith, then I think it was just a matter of time. If it wasnt EG it was gonna be someone else. I think TSL kept their players happy by giving them salaries but i think so somewhere along the line they lost their sponsors or their salary option for the players. Now half their team is gone.
It's worked for them until now. And the reason why the whole playing field changed now is because a foreign team decided to do something that is normally considered disrespectful in ANY team sport.
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On July 22 2011 03:39 Grimsong wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:37 WhiteDog wrote:On July 22 2011 03:26 Grimsong wrote:On July 22 2011 03:23 WhiteDog wrote:On July 22 2011 03:21 Grimsong wrote:On July 22 2011 02:54 Jibba wrote:On July 22 2011 02:45 JasKo wrote:
SOME of you are ridiculous do you not know how it works in real sports? the player normally goes to the highest bidder, loyalty is sometimes involved, but only when the money change wont make that much of a difference. What EG did wasn't shady, in fact, it is helping players to actually be able to make a living off of e sports. TSL could have offered more, but they couldn't. Why should Puma, and other players, be deprived of this opportunity? That's not at all how it works in real sports. What bothers me far more than the EG-TSL situation is all the idiots in this thread who chime in with an inane comment like "this is just like real sports!" when it actually isn't. Professional sports have an organized system of free agency whereby original teams generally get Right Of First Refusal on anyone that isn't an unrestricted free agent. That usually means that they can match or outbid other teams to retain their players. An unrestricted free agent is teamless. While these tiers don't exist in SC2 (yet), it's pretty clear Puma wasn't teamless. We don't know the details of TSL's contracts but it doesn't seem very strong or else it would have a NCC, but that still doesn't make someone an unrestricted free agent, and it still doesn't make this situation anything like professional sports or Lebron/Miami. Hold on here. You're wrong. Here's why. Rudy Fernandez is a professional basketball player. (Puma is a SC2 pro SC2 player) He plays within the league, the NBA (Currently there is no equivalent to the NBA in SC2. But in a sense, you could say that Korea is a league. and North America is a league. Lets say that. I like it as an analogy.) While Rudy Fernandez is being contracted within the NBA, Rudy Fernandez (While Puma was playing with TSL. We dont know 100% whether he is contracted or not, and even if he is, we dont know that the contract has the wording involved to legally stop something like this from happening, in Korea) was offered a contract from a team in Spain (a team that exists outside of the league, the NBA. EG, a team that exists outside of Korea). The NBA did not fine, or go after, or threaten, the Spanish club that was offering Rudy a contract. Why? Because they aren't a part of their association. They can't pursue anything, realistically, because they aren't affiliated. The league cant impose any infractions because they are not related or under the same rules and regulations. Rudy signing a contract with Spain to play Basketball is equivalent to Rudy signing a contract with South Africa to go Alligator Hunting. It's his choice. He can do whatever he wants while still honoring his contract. If he chose to play in Spain, he would have to work out with his current team (Dallas Mavericks. TSL) how to work out the contract. Whether it's them essentially waiving his contract (what TSL did to Puma, oh hello analogy), or sitting on it as it will be valid if he ever tries to re-enter the league, the NBA (whatever wording that contract he may have with TSL would be valid because he'd be re-entering that league,perse). That would have been up to Dallas/Rudy to sort out. But Spain had every right to offer the contract without asking Mark Cuban (the owner of the Dallas team) if he'd be ok with it. And guess what? No one in the NBA gave a damn about it because this is a common occurence in the league. You are wrong, there are many post before that explain exactly how it work in real sports, just read them. Im right. This happened. You're wrong is worthless, do you want links backing my claim up from ESPN? Are you kidding me? I know how it works in real sports, do you? Do you talk about sports hours daily, follow it closely, and have a bachelors in business? Show me how what I said didnt happen, because it literally did happen, about a month ago at that. Get back to me when you have facts. LoL? No you are wrong... you are making a comparaison between two different system : one structured legally (NBA) and one yet almost free from any regulation (e-sport)... Someone already told you that your exemple is off track. Transaction in NBA are reglemented period. Having a bachelor in business and talking about it doesn't quite make the cut when you can't make the difference between two situation... It's the same thing. Teams, players, leagues, contracts. I fail to see whats different besides the medium.
What you're describing does not happen in football for one.
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United States12607 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:45 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:30 FairForever wrote:On July 22 2011 03:27 Jibba wrote:On July 22 2011 03:21 JWD wrote:On July 22 2011 03:17 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 03:15 JWD wrote:
Thanks very much for that link guys. I'm going to update the OP with that information. Definitely suggests that there was some contract between TSL and PuMa, but who knows whether this incident implicates any of its terms. Coach Lee confirms that Puma had no contract. That certainly seems to be the implication of his first paragraph. If this is the case I can only say that I am surprised TSL would hang the security of its business venture on expectations (however strong) that players will always shy away from attractive offers purely because of an unwritten ethical code. Seriously, what were they thinking. >.> Even if they didn't pay Puma, providing food/housing/etc. is a basis for creating a contract. Even without NCC and all that other stuff, if they exists they could still seek damages. It's just so bizarre that they wouldn't have him sign anything in order to join the house. No it isn't. There is clearly no contract here. Unless there was a verbal understanding that Puma would stay for an extended period of time. The service TSL provided Puma was the food/housing/etc. The service TSL received was ability to use Puma in Team Leagues, Puma representing them, etc. for the time that Puma was there. Nowhere in there does it suggest that TSL and Puma are in a long-term relationship. If it was then one could say the relationship must be extended indefinitely, right? It doesn't need to be an extended period of time. It just needs to be "we'll provide you with X services in exchange for Y service."
A contract with those terms would be terminable at will at any time. The contract (even an implied contract) needs to require PuMa to stay with the team for a certain amount of time / include terms on switching to / courting another team for it to have any relevance here.
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this whole ethics debate is going to go on forever, but imo it is both partys fault. It is TSLs for not having a contract, and EGs for being a little disrespectful by not going to coach first. Also i am saying it is a little disrespectable by my standards and no one elses.
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This acquisition has ruined eSports.
With that all-too-common-nonesensical phrase done.....
In all seriousness, teams have to keep their players happy. This is the first step towards that. Someone made an interesting point about the establishments and regulations regarding "free agents" in sports.... but eSports definitely is not at that level yet. It will be one day... but for now if you don't keep your stars happy, be prepared to lose them to teams that can give them what they want.
Before I go into any of the "ethics" involved in this deal.... I definitely want to hear what EG has to say about the matter.
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So much drama lol. I always find it hilarious how people who only watch esports don't know that shit like this happens all the time in real sports. Players have to do what is best for them.
Personally I think Puma made the right choice. He wasn't getting paid shit to sit in a room and play SC2 all day when he gets an offer from another team that can send him around the world to all kinds of different events and (most likely) will give him a salary. Seems like a no brainier.
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On July 22 2011 03:43 [Agony]x90 wrote:
This is actually kinda funny. Not too long ago, near the end of my BW watching days (aka, a couple weeks before SC2 came out), a lot of people were very concerned about the treatment of players and comparing them to slaves or child labor. One of the things that empowered that were contracts and a very rigid structure of how professional gaming was organized in Korea. Now that this has come up, it seems the opposite. Everyone's saying how TSL has no right to Puma because he didn't sign a contract and that if they wanted him to stay, they should have done just that.
It seems we've come to the opposite extreme! Had the old rules been in play, Puma would not even be allowed to officially talk to the EG guys unless he had permission from his coaches. I don't think I care enough to go batshit crazy if EG aquires Puma by underhanded tatics, but I find it interesting that these players now how this freedom to move around as they please. Of course this should never be abused and I think that EG should respect TSL enough to at least inform the TSL coaches that they were considering recruiting Puma, because eventually, if this happens too much, I wouldn't doubt if Korea reinstated a strict policy for recruiting and player transaction. Once this happens, the power and influence drops out of the players hand and purely into the coaches hands.
From now on, I think EG or any foreign team (or any Korean team for that fact) should be open about potential trades in order to avoid miscommunication or trouble in general. I think if EG would have talked to TSL, both sides would have realized that this would be a great oppurtunity for Puma, who often fell to the background as a practice partner for the other players, without having the conflict and discomfort between the two teams.
Lastly, I feel like this might become a trend soon. There's a lot of talent and skill in the Korean ranks. However, many of them may never become star players in Korea and instead will move out to make a name in another country. This happens in every sport. Most olympic coaches in any country are usually recruited from single countries known to excel in that sport. Samething with chinese table tennis players and american basketball players in far east asian countries. In the end, it ends up benefitting both sides, so they might as well be open about it.
This is a good post and you should feel proud.
I expect all the coaches/managers of those players heading to MLG will be sitting down with their players to have a good talking-to. Well, except maybe SlayerS, since Boxer will be going to MLG as well.
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On July 22 2011 03:46 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:41 Mr Showtime wrote:On July 21 2011 15:00 Milkis wrote:
Update: TSL Coach Lee Woon Jae explains his stance
Coach Lee Woon Jae of TSL talked with TeamLiquid, trying to clear up some of the misunderstandings while explaining the situation from his point of view:
"It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts.
I'm sorry, but that's just downright stupid. You should know that stuff like this is going to happen if you don't have contracts. This a business and a full time job for these players. Relying on "trust and faith" is quite idiotic to put it bluntly. Hopefully this is a good lesson to all teams and managers out there. That's just it, this doesn't happen in Korea.
Then why does Kespa have such strict rules, why do Korean companies use contracts like everyone else?
Stop generalizing them all into your idea of their culture.
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Update: TSL Coach Lee Woon Jae explains his stance
Coach Lee Woon Jae of TSL talked with TeamLiquid, trying to clear up some of the misunderstandings while explaining the situation from his point of view:
"It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts. Because of many similar occurances [to Puma's case], we plan to make contracts mandatory.
Puma was with us for ten months, and where we provided him and his teammates with a good practice environment, food, etc, and developed him as a player. Unfortunately, Puma wished to join EG so we released him.
To acquire a player, contacting the original team regarding a transfer is a natural courtesy and the way things should be done. That is why I am very angry, and why it is huge topic in Korea right now. The Korean SC II association is preparing some measures, and I believe something similar won't happen again.
EG claims that Puma approached them first regarding joining their team, but this is not true. As I know it, EG's owner contacted Puma first. Not only Puma, but other Korean players."
Well, alright.
My one big concern is why you would run any kind of "professional team" without contracts for the players. Maybe it's a cultural thing. But in America, that doesn't make any sense at all. Maybe it's because literally everything you do these days is almost necessarily preceded by a contract. Either way, that just sounds incredibly silly.
Even with what I would call "silly" management, I can understand where TSL would be upset. They trusted Puma to stay with them, made him a great player, and then he wanted to leave. That'd hurt my feelings if I were in your position too. And you're working to change that with mandatory contracts, so you're adapting. Awesome.
I would bring the largest focus into this accusation that EG is lying about approaching Puma first or vice versa. That's a really big claim to make. I'm sure people will just latch on and agree, but I'd like to hear EG's position. The fact that they might have went around to other Korean players and proposed deals with them is interesting too. Why didn't they leave? Or did they want to, but forced to stay because of contracts?
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On July 22 2011 03:47 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:43 zeru wrote:
Im wondering what the korean players association is saying about this, or if they even are saying anything at all. Realizes he can have a higher base salary and probably 100% of prize money by switching to EG.
doubt that...in the cs scene i believe col was the only team who didnt take 10%
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On July 22 2011 03:43 StarcraftKevin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:34 Adreme wrote:On July 22 2011 03:31 StarcraftKevin wrote:
Why didn't sir scoots approach the coach of the tsl for the player offer like fxo did with fou? The 2 reasons for that are that 1 FXO didnt approach FOU, FOU approached FXO for sponsorships for foreign tournaments and FXO made a counter arrangement to buy the team. This brings me to point 2 which is that EG isnt trying to aquire TSL they just wanted Puma on there team. My question is then why didn't eg approach tsl for player buyout? Was it because puma wasn't legally bound to tsl?
They didnt approach TSL to buyout his contract because there was no contract to buy out.
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On July 22 2011 03:46 [Atomic]Peace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:40 JWD wrote:On July 22 2011 03:34 TBO wrote:
does anyone know how common oral or even implied-in-fact contracts are in Korea? (I mean staying on a team for months, getting accomodation and food, maybe even a salary can very much be considered as a contractual relationship even without a contract in some countries as far as I know) I don't know what the law is in Korea, but based on my (pretty good) knowledge of U.S. contract law I would be very surprised if any court would recognize an implied contract here that would prevent PuMa from talking to other teams or switching to another team. U.S. courts are quite hostile to oral and especially implied contracts; the thinking is (and it's smart thinking) that if the parties really wanted to bind themselves, they would have written their terms out. And I mean, the argument that PuMa committed never to switch to another SC2 team by accepting payment for his services at TSL is pretty absurd on its face. Edit: [Atomic]Peace what you are missing (I am pretty sure, and with all respect) is that to recover on any implied contract here, TSL would need to show not only that there was an implied agreement to exchange food etc. for playing services but also that the agreement included a NCC preventing PuMa from doing what he did here. That's a big stretch, to say the least. I agree with your analysis. Like I said, I do not think the court would compel Puma to remain on TSL because there is nothing here that suggests a NCC. But I do think an argument could be made that TSL suffered damages because Puma has not played for them (loss of sponsorship, Puma took up some of the coaches time, etc). Essentially we can view this as a business who housed and trained an employee and then the employee moved to another company. Without a NCC the move is allowed, but the employer still suffered damages. I think TSL would be entitled to recover these damages from Puma. After all, if the coach spent 2 hours per day on Puma when he could have been training someone else, that represets a very real cost to the team.
You are making a huge assumption - that PuMa had a breach of contract. You first need to establish that a contract existed. That means you need a definitive length of time which PuMa was contracted to TSL. Unless they can use something circumstantial (eg. all other TSL players stay for 3 years requirement... that would be flimsy but at least a start) you can't say that PuMa had a contract for X amount of time.
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Might be a bit shady by EG and Puma doing a deal like that, but do we really care enough to have 200 pages of debate? No laws were broken, just an arguable case of slightly underhand tactics maybe, no more than what goes on in any other organised professional environment. Am just waiting to see what Puma can do in other western tourneys 
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If Puma was never contractually on TSL, then why are they saying they "released" him? Is this some artifact of the translation, or just some passive-aggressive commentary on the situation? Seems to me like he just got a better deal and split because nothing was stopping him.
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On July 22 2011 03:47 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:43 zeru wrote:
Im wondering what the korean players association is saying about this, or if they even are saying anything at all. Because Korean players aren't stupid, each player knows he could be next to get an offer that is probably 10x better than what he's getting in Korea. My guess: PuMa gets virtually no salary, is a practice partner. Qualifies for NASL and wins. EG approaches him. Has part of his NASL winnings taken by TSL. Fair enough. Realizes he can have a higher base salary and probably 100% of prize money by switching to EG. What kind of player would not make that switch?
A player who wants to be the best player he can be/the best player in the world? That's my guess.
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Oh wow EG, going behind a teams back directly approaching players.
Why do i never hear anything positive out of that organization, every time they are in the spotlight i get the impression that they are really really shabby.
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On July 22 2011 03:44 seoul_kiM wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:42 isbunk wrote:
EG are as always, unprofessional. This is the kind of thing that will ruin eSports. Their HoN-team was as shady as the rest of the unprofessional douchebags within that orga.
From now on EG is dead to me, more dead then Derek Zoolanders dead mother.
Good day. Yea, I'm sure EG cares about 1 guy in Sweden calling their Hon-Team shady. Get it through your head, it's business and it happens everyday. It happens between the companies that build your computer, mouse, keyboard, monitor, so in turn, you should stop using that as well. Malpractice suits in business is so common. Honestly why do you think they made things such as patents in the first place?
Typical bs.
You people and I do say you people because I believe that everyone in this forum wants eSports to become more professional and if poaching players in this manner is professional then so be it. This being technically correct doesnt mean that this doesnt take esports back to the early CS-days with teams stealing players left and right. It's a joke, and it's gonna be a joke untill teams start acting professional. I dont think that there is anything that TSL can do legally, but if there is, I hope they do.
And considering one guy in Sweden calling their former HoN-team shady... im sure there are a few more at http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/forumdisplay.php?f=73 (Competitive gaming-part of HoN-forums) that agree. By a few more, I'd probably say everyone else.
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On July 22 2011 03:47 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:43 zeru wrote:
Im wondering what the korean players association is saying about this, or if they even are saying anything at all. Because Korean players aren't stupid, each player knows he could be next to get an offer that is probably 10x better than what he's getting in Korea. My guess: PuMa gets virtually no salary, is a practice partner. Qualifies for NASL and wins. EG approaches him. Has part of his NASL winnings taken by TSL. Fair enough. Realizes he can have a higher base salary and probably 100% of prize money by switching to EG. What kind of player would not make that switch?
The switch is fine. The way it happened isn't.
Just because we like to compare this event to how corporates work and hire people from other companies doesn't make this sitatuation any better.
It's a shame this had to happen from a non-korean team in this way.
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On July 22 2011 03:46 vojnik wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:45 TBO wrote:On July 22 2011 03:43 FairForever wrote:On July 22 2011 03:40 JWD wrote:On July 22 2011 03:34 TBO wrote:
does anyone know how common oral or even implied-in-fact contracts are in Korea? (I mean staying on a team for months, getting accomodation and food, maybe even a salary can very much be considered as a contractual relationship even without a contract in some countries as far as I know) I don't know what the law is in Korea, but based on my (pretty good) knowledge of U.S. contract law I would be very surprised if any court would recognize an implied contract here that would prevent PuMa from talking to other teams or switching to another team. U.S. courts are quite hostile to oral and especially implied contracts; the thinking is (and it's smart thinking) that if the parties really wanted to bind themselves, they would have written their terms out. And I mean, the argument that PuMa committed never to switch to another SC2 team by accepting payment for his services at TSL is pretty absurd on its face. This is the crux. Unless TSL can show that PuMa had an oral agreement to stay for a determinable, finite and reasonable period of time (reasonable being something not like 50 years), there isn't even a way to start the argument. I agree that it would be hilarious to assume he committed to never switch teams, however he is leaving TSL in mid-season of GSTL, where he played games in. Usually if you play in a league you don't switch teams mid-season. Trickster. Fruitdealer?
left on June 24th, TSL had first game of season on June 30th.
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EPT
