EPTPuma leaves TSL for EG - Page 209
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phisku
Belgium864 Posts
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Adreme
United States5574 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:52 jacobmarlow wrote: If TSL is underpaying its players then it would be wrong of them to be upset at this move. However, it would be interesting to know if TSL would be capable of matching or even bettering EG's offer. Overall, good for Puma for providing himself with more financial security, I wonder who he will be able to practice with now that he's no longer in the TSL house though. Will EG players go back to korea? Or will he just ladder alone? What I would find interesting is how much of a cut TSL takes out of winnings compared to EG and if that was part of the motivation as well. | ||
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farnham
1378 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:52 GwSC wrote: I don't really know what to think of this. On the one hand I guess Puma is free to do as he chooses since he is not under contract, so I see no fault on his part. EG is also free to take on a player if they are not under contract....but EG had to know TSL would not like this, and they apparently don't take Korean-Foreign team relations seriously at all. i see it like this puma was practicing with his friends but now he got a job and he left his friends for that. legally speaking its the same situation. | ||
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IMSmooth
United States679 Posts
Also is sounds like koreans aren't too pleased with Puma... i have a bad feeling that his skill will decline by a fair amount as long as other koreans refuse to train with him. It is sad too cause this could have been totally avoided and could have been huge happy news for EG and for ESPORTS in general but i feel that chance has been missed. | ||
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AnalThermometer
Vatican City State334 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:41 Mr Showtime wrote: I'm sorry, but that's just downright stupid. You should know that stuff like this is going to happen if you don't have contracts. This a business and a full time job for these players. Relying on "trust and faith" is quite idiotic to put it bluntly. Hopefully this is a good lesson to all teams and managers out there. It's not downright stupid. The system appears to work inside Korea as far as I know. The reason it's appearing to be an issue all of a sudden is because American business ethics are different from east asian business ethics, and EG are taking advantage of that. In some places in the world you can leave your door unlocked because there's a mutual trust between people in the community. EG is like a burglar from out of town who sees all the unlocked doors and starts taking the furniture. You can either say the people are naive for leaving their doors open or you can say it'd be nice to live in a place where we don't have to lock everything up because burglars keep trying to justify their actions with "its business". These ethical issues are not wholly unrelated to the American economy btw. | ||
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Soap
Brazil1546 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:52 Angelbelow wrote: Then it was never destined to work in the first place. I think its common sense, you play the game of trust and faith in a business and youre eventually going to get burned. We dont live in an ideal world where honor, trust, mutual respect exists. You either accept it and move or you reject it and remain in your own imagine perfect world. Neither mentally is wrong. I strongly disagree. I may honor, trust and respect the coach, but if I want to hire a player he doesn't have rights over, I'm not going to talk to him because it's none of his business. | ||
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EtohEtoh
Canada669 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:41 Mr Showtime wrote: I'm sorry, but that's just downright stupid. You should know that stuff like this is going to happen if you don't have contracts. This a business and a full time job for these players. Relying on "trust and faith" is quite idiotic to put it bluntly. Hopefully this is a good lesson to all teams and managers out there. uh, isn't this the exact reason everyone is so angry? It's a prime example of different cultures clashing. The system that the Koreans were using was perfectly fine, "trust and faith" can work in their societal context. Sure, it doesn't have much of a legal anchor, but when working with other korean teams, it didn't need to. Another korean team just simply wouldn't do what EG did. Legally, EG should be in the clear, yes, but they also pissed off a whole lot of Koreans, no doubt this made korean teams rethink the way they're dong things | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:52 Bedrock wrote: I think people are arguing about whether the business transaction was done properly or not, not really about if Puma made the right choice in going for more money. You always look out for yourself first. The quote I quoted was asking about Korean players, so it deserved a slightly different response than if you had asked the SC2 Scene in Korea or Pro-Gaming SC2 Teams in Korea. | ||
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xXFireandIceXx
Canada4296 Posts
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jiveturkey
United States18 Posts
No one will sign those contracts unless they have MASSIVE benefits attached that can compete with potential offers that are much better. "Puma was with us for ten months, and where we provided him and his teammates with a good practice environment, food, etc, and developed him as a player. Unfortunately, Puma wished to join EG so we released him." They act like it was a charity structure. We were so good to him. We fed him, blah blah, etc.. No, he does WORK for you, and you compensate him. He is an employee, and you are the employer. You spend money on him, he makes you money. "To acquire a player, contacting the original team regarding a transfer is a natural courtesy and the way things should be done. That is why I am very angry, and why it is huge topic in Korea right now. The Korean SC II association is preparing some measures, and I believe something similar won't happen again." Who says that is the way it should be done. When I ask ask people to stop their current job to help me write some code, offering them more money, I don't ask the employer's permission. I don't care about my competitor, I am interested in their employee. My business is with him, not his employer who is irrelevant to me. Maybe you don't like that, but it's not categorically unethical, only to some people. And it's the way that business works. "EG claims that Puma approached them first regarding joining their team, but this is not true. As I know it, EG's owner contacted Puma first. Not only Puma, but other Korean players." And this is a bad thing....how? | ||
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Bigpet
Germany533 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:51 GreEny K wrote: Stop mixing games... BW is not SC2 and SC2 doesn't have problems with teams stealing each others players. It does now  . Who says that is the way it should be done. When I ask ask people to stop their current job to help me write some code, offering them more money, I don't ask the employer's permission. I don't care about my competitor, I am interested in their employee. My business is with him, not his employer who is irrelevant to me. Maybe you don't like that, but it's not categorically unethical, only to some people. And it's the way that business works. mixing cut-throat business ethics with personal ethics now, are we? To this guy his team sounds more like a personal passion than a business. Maybe you don't see being polite as the ethical thing to do but this man apparently does. Also ethics are a very subjective thing so you can't tell that guy what's ethical to him. | ||
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Gnabgib
United States381 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:51 Snorkle wrote: Your sarcasm detector needs serious work. I defend eg in the first part of my post that you don't quote and then you think that absurd statement is my actual view? Sigh. Ill put it plainly no contract means eg did nothing wrong. Puma on twitter said he talked to his team first. Big money and big tournaments outside of korea are the best thing that could happen to Esports. Hope that clears it up for you. Spending too much time in this thread has made the little hamster running in my head that's powering the sarcasm detector to die. | ||
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mapthesoul
Trinidad/Tobago429 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:46 GreEny K wrote: That's just it, this doesn't happen in Korea. It doesn't happen in BW Korea. Foreign teams are run like a business. Trust and faith are no match for incentives, and after this I wouldn't be surprised if the korean teams started writing contracts, or some more big players leave to play in foreign teams. Maybe nothing happens, but as much as korea wants to stomp around and yell, they basically let EG do it. | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:53 isbunk wrote: Team EG looks like a bunch of losers, but then again, when you have people like idra and incontrol representing you (anyone remember the pre-NASL incontrol incident or anything idra has ever said or done?), this was bound to happen. Shady breeds shady. What? I meant TSL looks like a loser in this situation. How does this have anything to do with personally bashing Team EG? | ||
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Ansinjunger
United States2451 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:46 farnham wrote: looks like it EG would have approached TSL if they had a contract with Puma in place with a termination term and a penalty for breach of contract in place. If that was the case Puma wouldnt have been able to go to EG so freely. But as Puma was not bound legally to EG he just left without any consequence. its a omission of TSL and if anything TSL should kick themselves. This is the type of one-sided view that hurts me to read. You are actually right, from a Western point of view, but the fact that people are so willing to ignore the other side's point of view because they are conveniently happy with the results is a common way to reach a misunderstanding. | ||
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Grimsong
United States252 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:46 jmbthirteen wrote: Well you're wrong. The contract may have been offered pre lockout, but it wasn't even accepted so... http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/nba/news/story?id=6738790 If rudy had signed with the team in spain and the league wasn't in the lockout, the mavs could have prevented him from leaving, but with the lockout they have no power. Then I misinterpreted a few things I had heard through ESPN and reading, but regardless, this only opens the door to consider the fact that Dallas did not proceed to go after Spain in regards to tampering. And that was more what I was getting after. Puma apparently didnt even have a CONTRACT (no surprised), but even if he did, do you think it'd be sophisticated enough (yet) to protect something like this from happening? Puma and EG did nothing wrong, nothing any sports team in the world wouldnt do when going after a top tier talented player. | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
First they take incontrol out of sotg and now they're shaking up the korean scene.. They're making me a sad panda :< | ||
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seoul_kiM
United States545 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:49 isbunk wrote: Typical bs. You people and I do say you people because I believe that everyone in this forum wants eSports to become more professional and if poaching players in this manner is professional then so be it. This being technically correct doesnt mean that this doesnt take esports back to the early CS-days with teams stealing players left and right. It's a joke, and it's gonna be a joke untill teams start acting professional. I dont think that there is anything that TSL can do legally, but if there is, I hope they do. And considering one guy in Sweden calling their former HoN-team shady... im sure there are a few more at http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/forumdisplay.php?f=73 (Competitive gaming-part of HoN-forums) that agree. By a few more, I'd probably say everyone else. And they didn't do anything about their HoN division, so keep hatin' Also, how is it stealing a player if there was no contract binding puma to TSL? Simply, EG bought a player that was a free agent and playing as a free agent with TSL. If Puma was binded to TSL, EG would have had to pay a fine or buy out the contract like normal professional teams do but Puma had no contract to be bought out so EG bought the player. You make no logical sense. You ask for professionalism from an organization that did everything as other professionals would have. | ||
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xXFireandIceXx
Canada4296 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:55 jiveturkey wrote: "It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts. Because of many similar occurances [to Puma's case], we plan to make contracts mandatory." No one will sign those contracts unless they have MASSIVE benefits attached that can compete with potential offers that are much better. "Puma was with us for ten months, and where we provided him and his teammates with a good practice environment, food, etc, and developed him as a player. Unfortunately, Puma wished to join EG so we released him." They act like it was a charity structure. We were so good to him. We fed him, blah blah, etc.. No, he does WORK for you, and you compensate him. He is an employee, and you are the employer. You spend money on him, he makes you money. "To acquire a player, contacting the original team regarding a transfer is a natural courtesy and the way things should be done. That is why I am very angry, and why it is huge topic in Korea right now. The Korean SC II association is preparing some measures, and I believe something similar won't happen again." Who says that is the way it should be done. When I ask ask people to stop their current job to help me write some code, offering them more money, I don't ask the employer's permission. I don't care about my competitor, I am interested in their employee. My business is with him, not his employer who is irrelevant to me. Maybe you don't like that, but it's not categorically unethical, only to some people. And it's the way that business works. "EG claims that Puma approached them first regarding joining their team, but this is not true. As I know it, EG's owner contacted Puma first. Not only Puma, but other Korean players." And this is a bad thing....how? Try to understand the culture in Korea. Just try to understand that the way they operate is very different. I understand this first-hand. When I immigrated here, I didn't know this "could you pass the _________" or "may I be excused?" That was the expected courtesy and I didn't know. Now, if EG actually didn't understand the procedure (which I doubt) then they should make it clear. But right now, EG still hasn't released any official information, which adds to this doubt. | ||
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