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On July 22 2011 03:55 jiveturkey wrote:
"It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts. Because of many similar occurances [to Puma's case], we plan to make contracts mandatory."
No one will sign those contracts unless they have MASSIVE benefits attached that can compete with potential offers that are much better.
"Puma was with us for ten months, and where we provided him and his teammates with a good practice environment, food, etc, and developed him as a player. Unfortunately, Puma wished to join EG so we released him."
They act like it was a charity structure. We were so good to him. We fed him, blah blah, etc.. No, he does WORK for you, and you compensate him. He is an employee, and you are the employer. You spend money on him, he makes you money.
"To acquire a player, contacting the original team regarding a transfer is a natural courtesy and the way things should be done. That is why I am very angry, and why it is huge topic in Korea right now. The Korean SC II association is preparing some measures, and I believe something similar won't happen again."
Who says that is the way it should be done. When I ask ask people to stop their current job to help me write some code, offering them more money, I don't ask the employer's permission. I don't care about my competitor, I am interested in their employee. My business is with him, not his employer who is irrelevant to me.
Maybe you don't like that, but it's not categorically unethical, only to some people. And it's the way that business works.
"EG claims that Puma approached them first regarding joining their team, but this is not true. As I know it, EG's owner contacted Puma first. Not only Puma, but other Korean players."
And this is a bad thing....how?
Essentially what I got out of this. Sounds like TSL is just being whiny.
That being said, contracts would solve alot of this, but seeing as there was none, oh well you're SOL kiddies.
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On July 22 2011 03:54 Soap wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:52 Angelbelow wrote:On July 22 2011 03:47 JinDesu wrote:On July 22 2011 03:44 Angelbelow wrote:On July 22 2011 03:39 JinDesu wrote:On July 22 2011 03:31 SourD wrote:On July 22 2011 03:28 j3i wrote:On July 22 2011 03:22 Soap wrote:"It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts. So the korean SC2 scene is being run by amateurs, no wonder it isn't exactly thriving. This is new. The Korean sc2 scene being called amateurs. wow actually sc2 teams in korea atleast at the management level does seem to be a bit amateurish. little or no solid infrastructure built in.. ...really, what makes you say that? Is there something wrong with running on trust and faith? It worked for all the korean teams until a foreign team stepped in and basically ruined it. And for those people saying "contracts are necessary, oh they should have a contract, blah blah" - THIS event is the reason why sport associations require contracts and punish player poaching. Also, for those of you who say "oh in the west, we work based on money only, player poaching is totally normal" - if that's true, then why are there rules against player poaching? It's still wrong. In what sport or business would running a team on trust and faith work? If they really only run on trust and faith, then I think it was just a matter of time. If it wasnt EG it was gonna be someone else. I think TSL kept their players happy by giving them salaries but i think so somewhere along the line they lost their sponsors or their salary option for the players. Now half their team is gone. It's worked for them until now. And the reason why the whole playing field changed now is because a foreign team decided to do something that is normally considered disrespectful in ANY team sport. Then it was never destined to work in the first place. I think its common sense, you play the game of trust and faith in a business and youre eventually going to get burned. We dont live in an ideal world where honor, trust, mutual respect exists. You either accept it and move or you reject it and remain in your own imagine perfect world. Neither mentally is wrong. I strongly disagree. I may honor, trust and respect the coach, but if I want to hire a player he doesn't have rights over, I'm not going to talk to him because it's none of his business.
So that means you agree with me? Or are you disagreeing with the other guy? I think its pretty straight forward too. Puma was a free agent, no contract, so free to mingle. I can understand why some people are upset, but i see this kind of stuff all the time. I'm fully adjusted to this kind of cutthroat culture so I think its a fantastic move for EG and that sooner or later korean teams that are playing the game of trust are going to get burned too. Setting up that association that people are mentioning is a start, setting up player contracts is another. We'll see if they truly learn.
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On July 22 2011 03:55 EtohEtoh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:41 Mr Showtime wrote:On July 21 2011 15:00 Milkis wrote:
Update: TSL Coach Lee Woon Jae explains his stance
Coach Lee Woon Jae of TSL talked with TeamLiquid, trying to clear up some of the misunderstandings while explaining the situation from his point of view:
"It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts.
I'm sorry, but that's just downright stupid. You should know that stuff like this is going to happen if you don't have contracts. This a business and a full time job for these players. Relying on "trust and faith" is quite idiotic to put it bluntly. Hopefully this is a good lesson to all teams and managers out there. uh, isn't this the exact reason everyone is so angry? It's a prime example of different cultures clashing. The system that the Koreans were using was perfectly fine, "trust and faith" can work in their societal context. Sure, it doesn't have much of a legal anchor, but when working with other korean teams, it didn't need to. Another korean team just simply wouldn't do what EG did. Legally, EG should be in the clear, yes, but they also pissed off a whole lot of Koreans, no doubt this made korean teams rethink the way they're dong things
Understood. I get that's where the anger is derived from. But I say again.... this is a business, and should be treated as such. Not contracting players is stupid. They should know that now. It's unfortunate that they were the ones who had to learn the hard way, but life goes on.
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On July 22 2011 03:56 Ansinjunger wrote:
This is the type of one-sided view that hurts me to read. You are actually right, from a Western point of view, but the fact that people are so willing to ignore the other side's point of view because they are conveniently happy with the results is a common way to reach a misunderstanding.
Yet, here we are, in a 210 page long thread where only one side of the story is presented.
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On July 22 2011 03:43 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:41 Mr Showtime wrote:On July 21 2011 15:00 Milkis wrote:
Update: TSL Coach Lee Woon Jae explains his stance
Coach Lee Woon Jae of TSL talked with TeamLiquid, trying to clear up some of the misunderstandings while explaining the situation from his point of view:
"It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts.
I'm sorry, but that's just downright stupid. You should know that stuff like this is going to happen if you don't have contracts. This a business and a full time job for these players. Relying on "trust and faith" is quite idiotic to put it bluntly. Hopefully this is a good lesson to all teams and managers out there. Except that this method WORKED FOR THEM until a FOREIGN TEAM took a player. Relying on "trust and faith" in a society that highly prides honor and family is not idiotic.
Agree.
Ridiculing trust and faith is like, ridiculing the Indian or Mayan when the Europeans broughts guns and enslaved them.
Sigh, the human's morality nowaday...
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I'm debating whether this event is good for the SC2. On one hand, it will make the SC2 scene in Korea more legitimate. On the other hand, the Korean entertainment industry is known for its slave contracts, and it might make conditions even worse than they currently are.
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Hrm, the more I think about it, the more I am coming to agree with JWD's and FairForever's analysis. Given the facts we know, we can't prove a contract existed because we can't establish a time period in which Puma was expected to serve on TSL. I can't remember the exact rule that embodies this idea, but I'm going to go read through my books and find it. That was actually really fun! First time I tried to apply the knowledge I've gotten from my hobby to a real life situation.
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United States22883 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:44 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:42 isbunk wrote:
EG are as always, unprofessional. This is the kind of thing that will ruin eSports. Their HoN-team was as shady as the rest of the unprofessional douchebags within that orga.
From now on EG is dead to me, more dead then Derek Zoolanders dead mother.
Good day. Yeah I know! I mean, PuMa actually getting a fair wage for being one of the better players in the world? Deplorable! Terrible for E-Sports!
Well, the interesting part is that we don't actually know if Puma got market value for being one of the best players in the world. The problem with backhand dealing is that other teams didn't get to throw their chips in the pot either.
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On July 22 2011 03:55 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:46 GreEny K wrote:On July 22 2011 03:41 Mr Showtime wrote:On July 21 2011 15:00 Milkis wrote:
Update: TSL Coach Lee Woon Jae explains his stance
Coach Lee Woon Jae of TSL talked with TeamLiquid, trying to clear up some of the misunderstandings while explaining the situation from his point of view:
"It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts.
I'm sorry, but that's just downright stupid. You should know that stuff like this is going to happen if you don't have contracts. This a business and a full time job for these players. Relying on "trust and faith" is quite idiotic to put it bluntly. Hopefully this is a good lesson to all teams and managers out there. That's just it, this doesn't happen in Korea. It doesn't happen in BW Korea. Foreign teams are run like a business. Trust and faith are no match for incentives, and after this I wouldn't be surprised if the korean teams started writing contracts, or some more big players leave to play in foreign teams. Maybe nothing happens, but as much as korea wants to stomp around and yell, they basically let EG do it.
Simple fact is that without contracts and without paying your players a salary they will ultimately go elsewhere when offered a better deal.
Giving them a house and food is great, but if someone esle comes along who says we will do all that and pay you then you would be an idiot not to take it. I guess it comes down to western teams contract players and pay them, even if its not much, they pay them a salary, thats enough for many to sign a contract.
I certainly wouldn't sign a contract if they weren't gonna give me money, for house and food only I would say "i'm not signing a contract for that, I'll take the deal but if someone offers me money... i'm gone"
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United States12607 Posts
The Korean SC II association is preparing some measures, and I believe something similar won't happen again.
This sentence (from Coach Lee's statement in the OP) has me concerned. I hope that the players have fair representation in the Korean SC II Association (I'm totally unfamiliar with it -- any info, anyone?) because it looks like what Coach Lee is proposing is that the Association impose rules that would limit players' abilities to pursue the most lucrative/attractive playing contract. If the players get nothing in return for those rules, they'll have been stripped of freedom and money-making opportunities without fair compensation. (I feel like this is a theme of KeSPA's rise in the BW scene, but need more information on that story to make a conclusive judgment.)
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On July 22 2011 04:01 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:44 FairForever wrote:On July 22 2011 03:42 isbunk wrote:
EG are as always, unprofessional. This is the kind of thing that will ruin eSports. Their HoN-team was as shady as the rest of the unprofessional douchebags within that orga.
From now on EG is dead to me, more dead then Derek Zoolanders dead mother.
Good day. Yeah I know! I mean, PuMa actually getting a fair wage for being one of the better players in the world? Deplorable! Terrible for E-Sports! Well, the interesting part is that we don't actually know if Puma got market value for being one of the best players in the world. The problem with backhand dealing is that other teams didn't get to throw their chips in the pot either.
This is true. Entirely 100%. There was never an open market because the market never opened.
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On July 22 2011 03:55 jiveturkey wrote:
A lot of stuff
You said it so I don't have to. I'm blown away by the reaction to this.
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On July 22 2011 03:39 Ome wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:36 Ownos wrote:
What part of "contacting the original team regarding a transfer is a natural courtesy" do people not get? This isn't about contracts! Do competing businesses in the real world contact each other as a courtesy and let them know they're trying to hire their good workers from each other? I seriously doubt any business in South Korea calls up their competition and lets them know beforehand that they are going to offer one of their workers a package to come work for them. If that's not the case in the SC2 teams, that's unfortunate, but very naive of the team managers.
Businesses are amoral. They do only what is profitable. What is supposed to prevent them from acting unethically is things like, for example, a thread of angry people on a forum. We're the regulators in this mattter. Often, things that are good business, are things people should be mad about.
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So my question now is, how are the rest of the sc2 team feel about this. Are the teams in korea less likely to send their players to foreign events now because of this? If so, will this ultimately become a stepping stone for our e-sports community
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I am honestly shocked that PuMa was not contracted.. Contracts are commonplace in sc2 for any player that receives benefits from being on a team. I was contracted to VT and will be contracted to It's Gosu after Anaheim.. it's really just a simple practice that allows you to hold people responsible. Even if it isn't to assure they stay on your team, you also have no control over their commitment to your team or starcraft - they could just stop playing or not practice hard or something.
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On July 22 2011 03:59 Mr Showtime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:55 EtohEtoh wrote:On July 22 2011 03:41 Mr Showtime wrote:On July 21 2011 15:00 Milkis wrote:
Update: TSL Coach Lee Woon Jae explains his stance
Coach Lee Woon Jae of TSL talked with TeamLiquid, trying to clear up some of the misunderstandings while explaining the situation from his point of view:
"It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts.
I'm sorry, but that's just downright stupid. You should know that stuff like this is going to happen if you don't have contracts. This a business and a full time job for these players. Relying on "trust and faith" is quite idiotic to put it bluntly. Hopefully this is a good lesson to all teams and managers out there. uh, isn't this the exact reason everyone is so angry? It's a prime example of different cultures clashing. The system that the Koreans were using was perfectly fine, "trust and faith" can work in their societal context. Sure, it doesn't have much of a legal anchor, but when working with other korean teams, it didn't need to. Another korean team just simply wouldn't do what EG did. Legally, EG should be in the clear, yes, but they also pissed off a whole lot of Koreans, no doubt this made korean teams rethink the way they're dong things Understood. I get that's where the anger is derived from. But I say again.... this is a business, and should be treated as such. Not contracting players is stupid. They should know that now. It's unfortunate that they were the ones who had to learn the hard way, but life goes on.
Just because it's a business shouldn't mean there's no honor or common courtesy involved.
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I look at the situation like this.
Korea SC2 scene is...new..with limited amount of funding..a lot of teams are running privately and there is no associational structure to set up basic contractual agreement between teams and players. But still, Korea has most talented players in the world.
EG exploits current korean sc2 scene described above and acquires puma for free.
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On July 22 2011 03:55 xXFireandIceXx wrote:
I think the update in the OP confirms that everything is "legally" correct. However, it was rather an underhand trick, especially given the tradition of things done in Korea. EG didn't act illegally by all means, just not politely.
are you saying koreans dont do contracts ? its quite the opposite. i had to stamp every goddamn page of a shitlong contract with my fingers for a little german-korean translation job (so that nobody could take out a page and bring in another one or something like that). i never experienced that kind of contract management for such a low value contract really. koreans can be really specific about contracts.
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On July 22 2011 03:40 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:36 bonifaceviii wrote:
Hey can I have your car? I'll pay you later.
Oh don't worry about getting it in writing, I'm Korean. Our culture is based on trust. Yeah way to ridicule another culture, coming from one that's increasingly based on selfishness, greed and lack of respect and morality. You've really got a high ground there. -_- Seriously, the amount of people posting something that's basically the equivalent of "lol morals" and feeling happy and superior about it is disturbing to say the least.
Agreed. Putting law and contracts aside it's just bad manners to do what EG/puma did, then again looking at EG's rooster i doubt they care about their reputation.
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On July 22 2011 03:57 Euronyme wrote:
Pretty god damn stupid move by EG imo, especially if it makes it necessary to form a SC2 kespa.
First they take incontrol out of sotg and now they're shaking up the korean scene.. They're making me a sad panda :<
Doubtful that an SC2 Kespa would have the same power that the BW Kespa currently has. In BW, it very much was play by our rules or quit BW, as there was no alternative. In SC2, if a Korean player doesn't like what is being offered by the 'SC2 Kespa' teams, he has a great alternative, the rest of the global scene, where he can go and get a good deal.
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EPT
