EPTPuma leaves TSL for EG - Page 212
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Retgery
Canada1229 Posts
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Jamial
Denmark1289 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:55 jiveturkey wrote: "It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts. Because of many similar occurances [to Puma's case], we plan to make contracts mandatory." No one will sign those contracts unless they have MASSIVE benefits attached that can compete with potential offers that are much better. "Puma was with us for ten months, and where we provided him and his teammates with a good practice environment, food, etc, and developed him as a player. Unfortunately, Puma wished to join EG so we released him." They act like it was a charity structure. We were so good to him. We fed him, blah blah, etc.. No, he does WORK for you, and you compensate him. He is an employee, and you are the employer. You spend money on him, he makes you money. "To acquire a player, contacting the original team regarding a transfer is a natural courtesy and the way things should be done. That is why I am very angry, and why it is huge topic in Korea right now. The Korean SC II association is preparing some measures, and I believe something similar won't happen again." Who says that is the way it should be done. When I ask ask people to stop their current job to help me write some code, offering them more money, I don't ask the employer's permission. I don't care about my competitor, I am interested in their employee. My business is with him, not his employer who is irrelevant to me. Maybe you don't like that, but it's not categorically unethical, only to some people. And it's the way that business works. "EG claims that Puma approached them first regarding joining their team, but this is not true. As I know it, EG's owner contacted Puma first. Not only Puma, but other Korean players." And this is a bad thing....how? Some of your points are valid, some are not. In sports and with sportcontracts in general, it is customary to approach a team when you want to acquire one of their players. The team has a contract with that player, that contract has an expiration date. If you want to acquire the player BEFORE the contract expires, you have to agree with the player's team and pay them some sort of fee. The size of this fee depends on many things, among them: HOW LONG IS LEFT OF THE CONTRACT??. If noone will sign those contracts, eSports will never grow to be as big or close to as big as NBA/NFL/European Football/etc. (Which is what we all hope it will, no?). | ||
JWD
United States12607 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:04 Gnabgib wrote: If there's going to be a Korean SC2 association, then there has to be a SC2 players union. haha, that's what you'd think right? But check out the BW scene! As I understand, it's KeSPA policy that BW players aren't even allowed to have professional agents. | ||
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Ownos
United States2147 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:39 Ome wrote: Do competing businesses in the real world contact each other as a courtesy and let them know they're trying to hire their good workers from each other? I seriously doubt any business in South Korea calls up their competition and lets them know beforehand that they are going to offer one of their workers a package to come work for them. If that's not the case in the SC2 teams, that's unfortunate, but very naive of the team managers. Maybe not businesses, by his own word it's "natural courtesy" in their world? Might want to look up courtesy in the dictionary before you reply. Is it naive to expect a handshake or greeting when meeting for business? Or be on time for an appointment? Hey, you are not legally bound to a contract to show up on time right? So who it's ok to be a flake. It's no so much about Puma leaving than it is about not following protocol. If it was about leaving, this would've been brought up a long time ago when TD and Tester left oGs. | ||
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StarcraftKevin
United States285 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:04 farnham wrote: no korean teams will get some lawyers and draft contracts because thats the only proper response to this As much as I hate the way that sounds that might be the only route Korean team will taker to prevent this from happening further | ||
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Bigpet
Germany533 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:02 pezit wrote: Agreed. Putting law and contracts aside it's just bad manners to do what EG/puma did, then again looking at EG's rooster i doubt they care about their reputation. Well they are called Evil Geniuses so I guess they are just living up to their name  | ||
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Midgetman101
United States825 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:03 shell wrote: Its the same with tester and fruitdealer but because they left for other korean teams ppl don't talk about it and don't get upset. But puma is a recent winner and he left because like them he got a better offer and that's it.. The tsl coach is pissed but he's being childish since its obvoius it could happen anytime. Pay your players and have contracts and this wont happen again! I think uninformed people like you need to do a little research... THE PLAYERS OF TSL RECEIVED A SALARY. I THINK I NEED TO SAY THIS BECAUSE IVE SEEN SO MANY POSTS SAYING PUMA RECEIVED NOTHING IN TSL WHEN IN FACT< HE RECEIVED SHELTER, FOOD, AND MONEY. User was warned for this post | ||
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TheButtonmen
Canada1403 Posts
Not really the Korean E-sports model (aka Kespa) has contracts for everything, they regulate their players so much they pretty much own them. Stop trying to pretend that Korea is some magical place where everything works off trust and respect. Anyone who has ever done business with a Korean company can assure you that they just like everyone else sign contracts, make binding agreements and specify their terms. | ||
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Grimsong
United States252 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:05 FairForever wrote: Uh, what? If I open a new cornerstore, you can be goddamned sure every employee is going to be on a contract. Not an exact comparison because cornerstone employees are more replaceable, but the fact is that being a new business does not exempt one from requirements that are expected of more established businesses. You don't need an association to set up a contract - in fact, an association can be detrimental to contracts because it can limit the terms of the contract. Teams are more than able to set up contracts as they so desire. I agree, but if contracts become dominant then something needs to protect the players from having to agree to these contracts when they have no say. Lets say all teams establish they want to have X term in every contract, across the board. Lets say hypothetically they want to include 40 hrs of promised practice, along with 100 ladder games, a week (no idea if thatd be something but just an example). What if the players dont want this, but every team offers this as part of their contractual baseline requirements from each player? What alternatives would the players have? The players make the sport, but the teams/owners support it. They need eachother. As far as I've ever seen, the players lack representation of this extent. | ||
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[Atomic]Peace
United States451 Posts
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Korean way for handling programers really hasn't turned out all that great for the players in BW. From what I know, B-Teamers work with little to no money and no prospects after they wash out. I hope someone who knows more about the BW can chime in, but I always got the impression that everyone but the A level players get screwed. | ||
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Thrax
Canada1755 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:05 TBO wrote: All the drama aside I think there need to be rules on offline events forbidding to talk to players before the tournament is finished. Not only can it distract the player it also can become really ugly when a player is contacted by a team which has still a player in the tournament (or even a player immediately facing the player they want to hire). Maybe it shouldn't be a written rule but the teams should honor the fairness during a competition. I don't see any reason to do that. If EG wants to talk to a Korean player, they have many different avenues. Also, clearly the talk with EG didn't distract Puma at all - if anything, it gave him an extra reason to perform really well. | ||
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Grimsong
United States252 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:06 Sbrubbles wrote: Then again, PuMa accepted the offer, so we know he got a good deal. True but someone getting offered a guaranteed money contract, its hard to say no lets test my value. Sketch, but when a contract that guarantees you a lifestyle you want is hard to put on hold. | ||
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babylon
8765 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:08 TheButtonmen wrote: Not really the Korean E-sports model (aka Kespa) has contracts for everything, they regulate their players so much they pretty much own them. Stop trying to pretend that Korea is some magical place where everything works of trust and respect. Anyone who has ever done business with a Korean company can assure you that they just like everyone else sign contracts, make binding agreements and specify their terms. The Korean SC2 scene tried to get by without a Kespa. Now it seems like they believe it to be the only option, not because Puma switched teams, but because of how it was done. =__= | ||
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IMSmooth
United States679 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:07 StarcraftKevin wrote: As much as I hate the way that sounds that might be the only route Korean team will taker to prevent this from happening further this only drives up costs for maintaining their team which will lead to less up and coming players being brought in to these teams. each individual player becomes more and more of an investment | ||
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Ome
Canada157 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:06 Jamial wrote: Some of your points are valid, some are not. In sports and with sportcontracts in general, it is customary to approach a team when you want to acquire one of their players. The team has a contract with that player, that contract has an expiration date. If you want to acquire the player BEFORE the contract expires, you have to agree with the player's team and pay them some sort of fee. The size of this fee depends on many things, among them: HOW LONG IS LEFT OF THE CONTRACT??. If noone will sign those contracts, eSports will never grow to be as big or close to as big as NBA/NFL/European Football/etc. (Which is what we all hope it will, no?). The only reason teams approach other teams when they are looking to acquire their players in those leagues are because there is a governing body who set forth the rules that say that those teams must approach the other teams management and make an agreement or face the consequences for attempting to do otherwise. | ||
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Soap
Brazil1546 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:08 [Atomic]Peace wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Korean way for handling programers really hasn't turned out all that great for the players in BW. From what I know, B-Teamers work with little to no money and no prospects after they wash out. I hope someone who knows more about the BW can chime in, but I always got the impression that everyone but the A level players get screwed. They are free to pursue any other career. It's not the management fault that the scene is not large enough to secure everyone multimillionary contracts. | ||
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farnham
1378 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:08 Midgetman101 wrote: I think uninformed people like you need to do a little research... THE PLAYERS OF TSL RECEIVED A SALARY. I THINK I NEED TO SAY THIS BECAUSE IVE SEEN SO MANY POSTS SAYING PUMA RECEIVED NOTHING IN TSL WHEN IN FACT< HE RECEIVED SHELTER, FOOD, AND MONEY. User was warned for this post its even more stupid to give him a salary and not conclude a contract with penalties if the employee is breaching the contract | ||
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Leetley
1796 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:06 Retgery wrote: So where is Puma going to live and train? His skill cap will probably drop if he doesn't stay in a Korean house. Yeah, I'm pretty intrested in this question also. | ||
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Lokian
United States699 Posts
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taLbuk
Madagascar1879 Posts
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