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On July 22 2011 03:52 Stosh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 15:09 Tantaburs wrote: I guess this is what JP was alluding to on SotG last night about EG being like the Yankees of SC2
Except that the Yankees win. The better analogy for EG would be the Mets.
No wonder I really like Slayers. All homegrown talent, brought up through their own farm system.
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On July 22 2011 04:01 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:44 FairForever wrote:On July 22 2011 03:42 isbunk wrote: EG are as always, unprofessional. This is the kind of thing that will ruin eSports. Their HoN-team was as shady as the rest of the unprofessional douchebags within that orga.
From now on EG is dead to me, more dead then Derek Zoolanders dead mother.
Good day. Yeah I know! I mean, PuMa actually getting a fair wage for being one of the better players in the world? Deplorable! Terrible for E-Sports! Well, the interesting part is that we don't actually know if Puma got market value for being one of the best players in the world. The problem with backhand dealing is that other teams didn't get to throw their chips in the pot either.
You're right, PuMa didn't get FMV and there's no way for us to ever determine, seeing as we don't know the value he provides to EG nor do we know what other teams would be willing to pay him. But considering TSL's recent history, I'm pretty sure PuMa's current situation with EG is a lot better than TSL (from a monetary/benefits perspective). And that's already a start.
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Basically this thread is people saying Koreans are stupid for handling progamers things the Korean way and that the Western way is better.
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On July 22 2011 04:01 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +The Korean SC II association is preparing some measures, and I believe something similar won't happen again. This sentence (from Coach Lee's statement in the OP) has me concerned. I hope that the players have fair representation in the Korean SC II Association (I'm totally unfamiliar with it -- any info, anyone?) because it looks like what Coach Lee is proposing is that the Association impose rules that would limit players' abilities to pursue the most lucrative/attractive playing contract. If the players get nothing in return for those rules, they'll have been stripped of freedom and money-making opportunities without fair compensation. I share the same concern. The good news is that unlike Starcraft, Korea does not have a monopoly on Starcraft II. There's actually more money to be had outside Korea after all. So if the Association treats players poorly, I think top talent will just move to foreign teams.
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Its the same with tester and fruitdealer but because they left for other korean teams ppl don't talk about it and don't get upset. But puma is a recent winner and he left because like them he got a better offer and that's it..
The tsl coach is pissed but he's being childish since its obvoius it could happen anytime.
Pay your players and have contracts and this wont happen again!
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SC1 players have contracts. So apparently SC2 koreans have a different culture. If you don't give a player a contract, don't complain when they leave.
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On July 22 2011 04:02 farnham wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:55 xXFireandIceXx wrote: I think the update in the OP confirms that everything is "legally" correct. However, it was rather an underhand trick, especially given the tradition of things done in Korea. EG didn't act illegally by all means, just not politely. are you saying koreans dont do contracts ? its quite the opposite. i had to stamp every goddamn page of a shitlong contract with my fingers for a little german-korean translation job (so that nobody could take out a page and bring in another one or something like that). i never experienced that kind of contract management for such a low value contract really. koreans can be really specific about contracts.
I didn't say that man. When I said traditionally, I meant that other teams approach the teams first, not the players. I'm just saying it's like a custom thing to do.
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Umm... I thought there was team contracts? Isn't playing team sc2 suppose to be an occupation? Do occupations run on trust and respect or contracts? ...
well, I guess they must've learned something through this. I just hope it won't become to the extreme of KeSPA where you need liscense and shit. TSL manager strikes me as someone that can bring about KeSPA II with all these whiny crap. Don't bar the gamers like KeSPA with liscense and strict contracts.
give freedom but also protect yourself. teams approaching players should not be a problem if u have contracts. the player would then have to go to the coach, which he did... talking to another person about opportunities is not wrong, I don't get why thats sucha big deal.
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I just think TSL should be angry at themselves. They clearly are running the team poorly with all the players leaving and the whole no contract things...
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On July 22 2011 04:01 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +The Korean SC II association is preparing some measures, and I believe something similar won't happen again. This sentence (from Coach Lee's statement in the OP) has me concerned. I hope that the players have fair representation in the Korean SC II Association (I'm totally unfamiliar with it -- any info, anyone?) because it looks like what Coach Lee is proposing is that the Association impose rules that would limit players' abilities to pursue the most lucrative/attractive playing contract. If the players get nothing in return for those rules, they'll have been stripped of freedom and money-making opportunities without fair compensation.
If there's going to be a Korean SC2 association, then there has to be a SC2 players union.
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On July 22 2011 04:01 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:44 FairForever wrote:On July 22 2011 03:42 isbunk wrote: EG are as always, unprofessional. This is the kind of thing that will ruin eSports. Their HoN-team was as shady as the rest of the unprofessional douchebags within that orga.
From now on EG is dead to me, more dead then Derek Zoolanders dead mother.
Good day. Yeah I know! I mean, PuMa actually getting a fair wage for being one of the better players in the world? Deplorable! Terrible for E-Sports! Well, the interesting part is that we don't actually know if Puma got market value for being one of the best players in the world. The problem with backhand dealing is that other teams didn't get to throw their chips in the pot either.
It's been a few weeks since NASL, if any team managers wanted him they've had ample time to make their offers.
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On July 22 2011 04:00 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:43 JinDesu wrote:On July 22 2011 03:41 Mr Showtime wrote:On July 21 2011 15:00 Milkis wrote: Update: TSL Coach Lee Woon Jae explains his stance
Coach Lee Woon Jae of TSL talked with TeamLiquid, trying to clear up some of the misunderstandings while explaining the situation from his point of view:
"It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts.
I'm sorry, but that's just downright stupid. You should know that stuff like this is going to happen if you don't have contracts. This a business and a full time job for these players. Relying on "trust and faith" is quite idiotic to put it bluntly. Hopefully this is a good lesson to all teams and managers out there. Except that this method WORKED FOR THEM until a FOREIGN TEAM took a player. Relying on "trust and faith" in a society that highly prides honor and family is not idiotic. Agree. Ridiculing trust and faith is like, ridiculing the Indian or Mayan when the Europeans broughts guns and enslaved them. Sigh, the human's morality nowaday...
I'm sorry but having a system that is based on faith is stupid. It's admirable in a way but to get butt hurt when it doesn't work is like getting pissed if someone steals your bike if you leave it unlocked all the time. People should know better.
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On July 22 2011 03:54 IMSmooth wrote: Lee's stance also showed that EG has approached other korean players. Korean teams are going to be a lot more cautious about sending their players out west with the threat of foreign teams trying to swoop them up.
Also is sounds like koreans aren't too pleased with Puma... i have a bad feeling that his skill will decline by a fair amount as long as other koreans refuse to train with him.
It is sad too cause this could have been totally avoided and could have been huge happy news for EG and for ESPORTS in general but i feel that chance has been missed. no korean teams will get some lawyers and draft contracts because thats the only proper response to this
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On July 22 2011 04:01 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +The Korean SC II association is preparing some measures, and I believe something similar won't happen again. This sentence (from Coach Lee's statement in the OP) has me concerned. I hope that the players have fair representation in the Korean SC II Association (I'm totally unfamiliar with it -- any info, anyone?) because it looks like what Coach Lee is proposing is that the Association impose rules that would limit players' abilities to pursue the most lucrative/attractive playing contract. If the players get nothing in return for those rules, they'll have been stripped of freedom and money-making opportunities without fair compensation. It's the coaches + players association (president is Junwi) + GOM. Either way this certainly means players will have less freedom, how far that goes is up in the air.
Edit: http://s2con.com/
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On July 22 2011 03:56 Ansinjunger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:46 farnham wrote:On July 22 2011 03:43 StarcraftKevin wrote:On July 22 2011 03:34 Adreme wrote:On July 22 2011 03:31 StarcraftKevin wrote: Why didn't sir scoots approach the coach of the tsl for the player offer like fxo did with fou? The 2 reasons for that are that 1 FXO didnt approach FOU, FOU approached FXO for sponsorships for foreign tournaments and FXO made a counter arrangement to buy the team. This brings me to point 2 which is that EG isnt trying to aquire TSL they just wanted Puma on there team. My question is then why didn't eg approach tsl for player buyout? Was it because puma wasn't legally bound to tsl? looks like it EG would have approached TSL if they had a contract with Puma in place with a termination term and a penalty for breach of contract in place. If that was the case Puma wouldnt have been able to go to EG so freely. But as Puma was not bound legally to EG he just left without any consequence. its a omission of TSL and if anything TSL should kick themselves. This is the type of one-sided view that hurts me to read. You are actually right, from a Western point of view, but the fact that people are so willing to ignore the other side's point of view because they are conveniently happy with the results is a common way to reach a misunderstanding. It has been hours since this news broke out and despite many calls by people including milkis to scoots directly, they haven't said anything to defend themselves. It is directly their fault people are taking only one side.
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On July 22 2011 04:02 fraktoasters wrote: Basically this thread is people saying Koreans are stupid for handling progamers things the Korean way and that the Western way is better.
Sad but true.
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On July 22 2011 04:02 SourD wrote: I look at the situation like this.
Korea SC2 scene is...new..with limited amount of funding..a lot of teams are running privately and there is no associational structure to set up basic contractual agreement between teams and players. But still, Korea has most talented players in the world. EG exploits current korean sc2 scene described above and acquires puma for free.
Uh, what?
If I open a new cornerstore, you can be goddamned sure every employee is going to be on a contract. Not an exact comparison because cornerstone employees are more replaceable, but the fact is that being a new business does not exempt one from requirements that are expected of more established businesses.
You don't need an association to set up a contract - in fact, an association can be detrimental to contracts because it can limit the terms of the contract. Teams are more than able to set up contracts as they so desire.
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On July 22 2011 04:04 farnham wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:54 IMSmooth wrote: Lee's stance also showed that EG has approached other korean players. Korean teams are going to be a lot more cautious about sending their players out west with the threat of foreign teams trying to swoop them up.
Also is sounds like koreans aren't too pleased with Puma... i have a bad feeling that his skill will decline by a fair amount as long as other koreans refuse to train with him.
It is sad too cause this could have been totally avoided and could have been huge happy news for EG and for ESPORTS in general but i feel that chance has been missed. no korean teams will get some lawyers and draft contracts because thats the only proper response to this
Well, this certainly is a wake-up call for some of the Korean teams. Maybe they'll be a bit more aware of the possibility of these signings cuz i think this case just caught them by surprise.
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All the drama aside I think there need to be rules on offline events forbidding to talk to players before the tournament is finished. Not only can it distract the player it also can become really ugly when a player is contacted by a team which has still a player in the tournament (or even a player immediately facing the player they want to hire).
Maybe it shouldn't be a written rule but the teams should honor the fairness during a competition.
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On July 22 2011 04:01 Grimsong wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 04:01 Jibba wrote:On July 22 2011 03:44 FairForever wrote:On July 22 2011 03:42 isbunk wrote: EG are as always, unprofessional. This is the kind of thing that will ruin eSports. Their HoN-team was as shady as the rest of the unprofessional douchebags within that orga.
From now on EG is dead to me, more dead then Derek Zoolanders dead mother.
Good day. Yeah I know! I mean, PuMa actually getting a fair wage for being one of the better players in the world? Deplorable! Terrible for E-Sports! Well, the interesting part is that we don't actually know if Puma got market value for being one of the best players in the world. The problem with backhand dealing is that other teams didn't get to throw their chips in the pot either. This is true. Entirely 100%. There was never an open market because the market never opened.
Then again, PuMa accepted the offer, so we know he got a good deal.
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