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On July 22 2011 04:06 Jamial wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:55 jiveturkey wrote:
"It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts. Because of many similar occurances [to Puma's case], we plan to make contracts mandatory."
No one will sign those contracts unless they have MASSIVE benefits attached that can compete with potential offers that are much better.
"Puma was with us for ten months, and where we provided him and his teammates with a good practice environment, food, etc, and developed him as a player. Unfortunately, Puma wished to join EG so we released him."
They act like it was a charity structure. We were so good to him. We fed him, blah blah, etc.. No, he does WORK for you, and you compensate him. He is an employee, and you are the employer. You spend money on him, he makes you money.
"To acquire a player, contacting the original team regarding a transfer is a natural courtesy and the way things should be done. That is why I am very angry, and why it is huge topic in Korea right now. The Korean SC II association is preparing some measures, and I believe something similar won't happen again."
Who says that is the way it should be done. When I ask ask people to stop their current job to help me write some code, offering them more money, I don't ask the employer's permission. I don't care about my competitor, I am interested in their employee. My business is with him, not his employer who is irrelevant to me.
Maybe you don't like that, but it's not categorically unethical, only to some people. And it's the way that business works.
"EG claims that Puma approached them first regarding joining their team, but this is not true. As I know it, EG's owner contacted Puma first. Not only Puma, but other Korean players."
And this is a bad thing....how? Some of your points are valid, some are not. In sports and with sportcontracts in general, it is customary to approach a team when you want to acquire one of their players. The team has a contract with that player, that contract has an expiration date. If you want to acquire the player BEFORE the contract expires, you have to agree with the player's team and pay them some sort of fee. The size of this fee depends on many things, among them: HOW LONG IS LEFT OF THE CONTRACT??. If noone will sign those contracts, eSports will never grow to be as big or close to as big as NBA/NFL/European Football/etc. (Which is what we all hope it will, no?). (see the nested quote) That is a bad thing because it shows EG had been being shady and dishonest in this dealing and other dealings with other players, rather than being upfront about dealing with player recruitment, which is obviously, the better option. That is why that would be a point of concern.
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Though technically legal, this move sets a really bad precedent. In the worst case, the Korean teams might overreact and end up creating a KESPA 2 to control their players.
While this benefits EG for the moment, the fallout from this incident might end up really damaging the scene as a whole.
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United States12607 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:08 [Atomic]Peace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 04:05 PHC wrote:On July 22 2011 04:02 fraktoasters wrote:
Basically this thread is people saying Koreans are stupid for handling progamers things the Korean way and that the Western way is better. Sad but true. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Korean way for handling programers really hasn't turned out all that great for the players in BW. From what I know, B-Teamers work with little to no money and no prospects after they wash out. I hope someone who knows more about the BW can chime in, but I always got the impression that everyone but the A level players get screwed.
Even the A-level players are screwed in many ways, when it comes to bargaining power and freedom to seek the most lucrative deal from teams.
In any case, (and someone has pointed this out already, but it's really important) it's not fair to call TSL's mode of operation (no contract) the "Korean way" because Korea is contract-savvy, and especially in business. Even the BW scene and KeSPA run on contracts, not informal, purported ethical agreements.
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On July 22 2011 04:05 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 04:02 SourD wrote:
I look at the situation like this.
Korea SC2 scene is...new..with limited amount of funding..a lot of teams are running privately and there is no associational structure to set up basic contractual agreement between teams and players. But still, Korea has most talented players in the world.
EG exploits current korean sc2 scene described above and acquires puma for free.
Uh, what? If I open a new cornerstore, you can be goddamned sure every employee is going to be on a contract. Not an exact comparison because cornerstone employees are more replaceable, but the fact is that being a new business does not exempt one from requirements that are expected of more established businesses. You don't need an association to set up a contract - in fact, an association can be detrimental to contracts because it can limit the terms of the contract. Teams are more than able to set up contracts as they so desire.
yes, i agree.
I believe coach Lee was part of SC1 team before this. My guess is that he doesnt have experience in managing a team without a organization such as Kespa guiding them to set up such contracts and what not..which is of course his own fault..but I do have to say that EG exploited this situation nonetheless.
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On July 22 2011 04:10 Soap wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 04:08 [Atomic]Peace wrote:On July 22 2011 04:05 PHC wrote:On July 22 2011 04:02 fraktoasters wrote:
Basically this thread is people saying Koreans are stupid for handling progamers things the Korean way and that the Western way is better. Sad but true. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Korean way for handling programers really hasn't turned out all that great for the players in BW. From what I know, B-Teamers work with little to no money and no prospects after they wash out. I hope someone who knows more about the BW can chime in, but I always got the impression that everyone but the A level players get screwed. They are free to pursue any other career. It's not the management fault that the scene is not large enough to secure everyone multimillionary contracts.
You forget that the B team is necessary for the A team to succeed. That is why for professional sports there are minimum salaries for all professional players, even if they never play in a single game.
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I don't know if it's already been answered, but it's probably been brought up already: Is Puma then moving out of Korea? I'm sure someone as good as him knows that his skill is likely to drop from moving (or at least playing) outside of Korea, which would be such a shame providing his recent performances.
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On July 22 2011 04:10 Ome wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 04:06 Jamial wrote:On July 22 2011 03:55 jiveturkey wrote:
"It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts. Because of many similar occurances [to Puma's case], we plan to make contracts mandatory."
No one will sign those contracts unless they have MASSIVE benefits attached that can compete with potential offers that are much better.
"Puma was with us for ten months, and where we provided him and his teammates with a good practice environment, food, etc, and developed him as a player. Unfortunately, Puma wished to join EG so we released him."
They act like it was a charity structure. We were so good to him. We fed him, blah blah, etc.. No, he does WORK for you, and you compensate him. He is an employee, and you are the employer. You spend money on him, he makes you money.
"To acquire a player, contacting the original team regarding a transfer is a natural courtesy and the way things should be done. That is why I am very angry, and why it is huge topic in Korea right now. The Korean SC II association is preparing some measures, and I believe something similar won't happen again."
Who says that is the way it should be done. When I ask ask people to stop their current job to help me write some code, offering them more money, I don't ask the employer's permission. I don't care about my competitor, I am interested in their employee. My business is with him, not his employer who is irrelevant to me.
Maybe you don't like that, but it's not categorically unethical, only to some people. And it's the way that business works.
"EG claims that Puma approached them first regarding joining their team, but this is not true. As I know it, EG's owner contacted Puma first. Not only Puma, but other Korean players."
And this is a bad thing....how? Some of your points are valid, some are not. In sports and with sportcontracts in general, it is customary to approach a team when you want to acquire one of their players. The team has a contract with that player, that contract has an expiration date. If you want to acquire the player BEFORE the contract expires, you have to agree with the player's team and pay them some sort of fee. The size of this fee depends on many things, among them: HOW LONG IS LEFT OF THE CONTRACT??. If noone will sign those contracts, eSports will never grow to be as big or close to as big as NBA/NFL/European Football/etc. (Which is what we all hope it will, no?). The only reason teams approach other teams when they are looking to acquire their players in those leagues are because there is a governing body who set forth the rules that say that those teams must approach the other teams management and make an agreement or face the consequences for attempting to do otherwise.
also its because the player that wants to be transfered will get financial consequences due to breach of contract.
even without a governing body it is possible to bind employees with such clauses
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On July 22 2011 04:11 Lokian wrote:
yeah i wonder why tester/fruitdealer didn't piss the coach off? is it all because of appraoching the coach instead of the player? is that really pissworthy? just freedom of speech
From the timeline of events, it seems like they both left first on their own accord and sought out teams themselves after that. I could be wrong though.
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So he didnt have a contract...well lol its not like they can be mad?
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On July 22 2011 04:11 Lokian wrote:
yeah i wonder why tester/fruitdealer didn't piss the coach off? is it all because of appraoching the coach instead of the player? is that really pissworthy? just freedom of speech I am sure it was a more upfront and negotiating oriented deal rather than a surprise shitstorm like this was and Fruitdealer and Trickster also left on their own accord.
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On July 22 2011 04:00 MrDudeMan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:56 Ansinjunger wrote:
This is the type of one-sided view that hurts me to read. You are actually right, from a Western point of view, but the fact that people are so willing to ignore the other side's point of view because they are conveniently happy with the results is a common way to reach a misunderstanding. Yet, here we are, in a 210 page long thread where only one side of the story is presented.
And as I said in my previous post, EG's had 11 days since NASL finals to prepare a statement, which is longer than TSL has had.
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On July 22 2011 04:13 farnham wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 04:10 Ome wrote:On July 22 2011 04:06 Jamial wrote:On July 22 2011 03:55 jiveturkey wrote:
"It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts. Because of many similar occurances [to Puma's case], we plan to make contracts mandatory."
No one will sign those contracts unless they have MASSIVE benefits attached that can compete with potential offers that are much better.
"Puma was with us for ten months, and where we provided him and his teammates with a good practice environment, food, etc, and developed him as a player. Unfortunately, Puma wished to join EG so we released him."
They act like it was a charity structure. We were so good to him. We fed him, blah blah, etc.. No, he does WORK for you, and you compensate him. He is an employee, and you are the employer. You spend money on him, he makes you money.
"To acquire a player, contacting the original team regarding a transfer is a natural courtesy and the way things should be done. That is why I am very angry, and why it is huge topic in Korea right now. The Korean SC II association is preparing some measures, and I believe something similar won't happen again."
Who says that is the way it should be done. When I ask ask people to stop their current job to help me write some code, offering them more money, I don't ask the employer's permission. I don't care about my competitor, I am interested in their employee. My business is with him, not his employer who is irrelevant to me.
Maybe you don't like that, but it's not categorically unethical, only to some people. And it's the way that business works.
"EG claims that Puma approached them first regarding joining their team, but this is not true. As I know it, EG's owner contacted Puma first. Not only Puma, but other Korean players."
And this is a bad thing....how? Some of your points are valid, some are not. In sports and with sportcontracts in general, it is customary to approach a team when you want to acquire one of their players. The team has a contract with that player, that contract has an expiration date. If you want to acquire the player BEFORE the contract expires, you have to agree with the player's team and pay them some sort of fee. The size of this fee depends on many things, among them: HOW LONG IS LEFT OF THE CONTRACT??. If noone will sign those contracts, eSports will never grow to be as big or close to as big as NBA/NFL/European Football/etc. (Which is what we all hope it will, no?). The only reason teams approach other teams when they are looking to acquire their players in those leagues are because there is a governing body who set forth the rules that say that those teams must approach the other teams management and make an agreement or face the consequences for attempting to do otherwise. also its because the player that wants to be transfered will get financial consequences due to breach of contract. even without a governing body it is possible to bind employees with such clauses
I'll just quote this for emphasis. If you breach a contract it has a consequence.
Also, I believe there SHOULD be a governing body enforcing such rules. It's the only reasonable way to go about it.
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On July 22 2011 04:12 SourD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 04:05 FairForever wrote:On July 22 2011 04:02 SourD wrote:
I look at the situation like this.
Korea SC2 scene is...new..with limited amount of funding..a lot of teams are running privately and there is no associational structure to set up basic contractual agreement between teams and players. But still, Korea has most talented players in the world.
EG exploits current korean sc2 scene described above and acquires puma for free.
Uh, what? If I open a new cornerstore, you can be goddamned sure every employee is going to be on a contract. Not an exact comparison because cornerstone employees are more replaceable, but the fact is that being a new business does not exempt one from requirements that are expected of more established businesses. You don't need an association to set up a contract - in fact, an association can be detrimental to contracts because it can limit the terms of the contract. Teams are more than able to set up contracts as they so desire. yes, i agree. I believe coach Lee was part of SC1 team before this. My guess is that he doesnt have experience in managing a team without a organization such as Kespa guiding them to set up such contracts and what not..which is of course his own fault..but I do have to say that EG exploited this situation nonetheless.
He was a coach in MBCGame Hero.
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On July 22 2011 04:08 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 04:05 PHC wrote:On July 22 2011 04:02 fraktoasters wrote:
Basically this thread is people saying Koreans are stupid for handling progamers things the Korean way and that the Western way is better. Sad but true. Not really the Korean E-sports model (aka Kespa) has contracts for everything, they regulate their players so much they pretty much own them. Stop trying to pretend that Korea is some magical place where everything works off trust and respect. Anyone who has ever done business with a Korean company can assure you that they just like everyone else sign contracts, make binding agreements and specify their terms.
You are making an extremely bad assumption that "the Korean way" in SC2 is the same as "the Korean way" in BW. Kespa is run by businessmen and TV executives.
Koreans made precedence in having a player's association for SC2, with the head of it being elected by the players and teams.
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On July 22 2011 04:14 TheRPGAddict wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 04:11 Lokian wrote:
yeah i wonder why tester/fruitdealer didn't piss the coach off? is it all because of appraoching the coach instead of the player? is that really pissworthy? just freedom of speech I am sure it was a more upfront and negotiating oriented deal rather than a surprise shitstorm like this was.
The fact that Puma went to a foreign team and not another Korean team could be a factor as well.
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On July 22 2011 04:12 Jojo131 wrote:
I don't know if it's already been answered, but it's probably been brought up already: Is Puma then moving out of Korea? I'm sure someone as good as him knows that his skill is likely to drop from moving (or at least playing) outside of Korea, which would be such a shame providing his recent performances.
There is no statement from EG yet, however I only assume that he is gonna live at the EG house in America?
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great move for puma and for EG, i wish them both all the best in the future  gonna bea great team, bunch of all-stars!
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On July 22 2011 03:43 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:41 Mr Showtime wrote:On July 21 2011 15:00 Milkis wrote:
Update: TSL Coach Lee Woon Jae explains his stance
Coach Lee Woon Jae of TSL talked with TeamLiquid, trying to clear up some of the misunderstandings while explaining the situation from his point of view:
"It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts.
I'm sorry, but that's just downright stupid. You should know that stuff like this is going to happen if you don't have contracts. This a business and a full time job for these players. Relying on "trust and faith" is quite idiotic to put it bluntly. Hopefully this is a good lesson to all teams and managers out there. Except that this method WORKED FOR THEM until a FOREIGN TEAM took a player. Relying on "trust and faith" in a society that highly prides honor and family is not idiotic.
And it's not just TSL that it's worked for either.
It certainly hasn't hurt oGs. After all they got a partnership with SK gaming rather than outright losing MC and Nada didn't they? ie - another team approached them and worked something out.
Ditto Prime and World Elite (although all the WE players seem to be out of Korea at this point so their partnership doens't seem to mean anything anymore).
Just recently FXO approached fOu organization to organization with none of this drama involved, even though they could have tried to poach all their best players (and probably would have succeeded considering how many players have left fOu in the last year).
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did JP know about this before we did when he randomly mentioned EG as if they were the yankees on state of the game
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On July 22 2011 04:09 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 04:08 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 04:05 PHC wrote:On July 22 2011 04:02 fraktoasters wrote:
Basically this thread is people saying Koreans are stupid for handling progamers things the Korean way and that the Western way is better. Sad but true. Not really the Korean E-sports model (aka Kespa) has contracts for everything, they regulate their players so much they pretty much own them. Stop trying to pretend that Korea is some magical place where everything works of trust and respect. Anyone who has ever done business with a Korean company can assure you that they just like everyone else sign contracts, make binding agreements and specify their terms. The Korean SC2 scene tried to get by without a Kespa. Now it seems like they believe it to be the only option, not because Puma switched teams, but because of how it was done. =__=
That is a large stretch. The only team that seems to have issues is TSL. All other teams are having good experiences with western teams. Liquid-oGs partnership. FOu now FXO has a solid sponsor. I doubt this single deal would make them change everything. You don't hear about this from players from any other team.
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EPT
