EPTPuma leaves TSL for EG - Page 214
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Teejing
Germany1360 Posts
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babylon
8765 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:15 [Atomic]Peace wrote: The fact that Puma went to a foreign team and not another Korean team could be a factor as well. Doubt it. Rain went to Fnatic, and nobody's feelings were hurt. FXO just bought fOu and nobody's feelings were hurt. They're protesting more about the manner in which the switch happened than the fact that it happened. | ||
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Ome
Canada157 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:15 Jamial wrote: I'll just quote this for emphasis. If you breach a contract it has a consequence. Also, I believe there SHOULD be a governing body enforcing such rules. It's the only reasonable way to go about it. Oh certainly, but in this case it looks like there was no contract present, or if there was a contract, Puma was willing to pay the penalties in that contract to move to EG. And I think in the future, if SC2 gets large enough that it's required, a governing body will be created to outline things for all players/teams/fans, on what they can and can't do. | ||
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TheRPGAddict
United States1403 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:16 Keldrath wrote: I don't know, I am kinda concerned for Puma's practice quality. His environment in Korea with all of the other teams and those in TSL seems to be much more favorable, also from what is said about foreigners who have experienced it. great move for puma and for EG, i wish them both all the best in the future  gonna bea great team, bunch of all-stars! | ||
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shawster
Canada2485 Posts
so from what i've read so far, puma was approached by eg directly and this was questionable. but why is giving a player a lucrative contract in any way stealing a player? why couldn't the korean team give him a offer that matches EG's offer? if TSL wasn't able to match it and puma went to EG that wouldn't be unethical or anything, it's just one team wanting a player more than another team. unless the shitstorm is about how the management could've stopped puma from leaving and they weren't able to. maybe it's my western state of mind that tells me that if one team pays more the team should get it. | ||
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:17 babylon wrote: Doubt it. Rain went to Fnatic, and nobody's feelings were hurt. FXO just bought fOu and nobody's feelings were hurt. They're protesting more about the manner in which the switch happened than the fact that it happened. Rain was already off the team before Fnatic picked him up. FXO didn't buy fOu, fOu approached them with the offer. | ||
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LegendaryZ
United States1583 Posts
Up until this point, the Starcraft 2 scene has largely been run on trust and cooperation. This is what has allowed for the relative lack of regulation within teams and across leagues. EG in this instance has essentially abused that trust and taken advantage of it by poaching a player at a foreign event. You can certainly fault TSL for lacking foresight and not mandating a contract, but this type of naivete is pretty much what many people praised about the SC2 scene. We like to bash KeSPA for its heavy regulations and control over players, but that's exactly what people faulting TSL are arguing should be the norm while at the same time not wanting such a regulatory body to come into fruition. I'm afraid that a KeSPA-like organization or at least that type of atmosphere is going to be created in response to this, effectively forcing players into contracts and heavily regulating their freedoms in an effort for teams to ensure the protection of their investments. While what EG has done here isn't necessarily wrong, it can't be denied that they've effectively "changed the game" as far as the way teams and players interact goes and the statement that Manager Lee made about measures being put into place in order to prevent this from happening in the future is an immediate indicator of that. The sweet and innocent SC2 scene that we've known so far has all of a sudden become serious business with all of the atmosphere of distrust that comes with it. It may make the scene more legitimate and closer to the real sports leagues that we see today, but I wonder if that's what we really want for SC2. After all, KeSPA was undeniably an effective organization whose methods, while somewhat ruthless, are tried and true in the business sense (EG would have never been able to pull this on one of their teams or players). Honestly though, when you consider this, don't we want teams to be a little bit more naive and trusting if only for the sake of the players? | ||
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chrissummers
243 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:16 Let it Raine wrote: did JP know about this before we did when he randomly mentioned EG as if they were the yankees on state of the game I am very certain he knew about it, no reason for stating it like he did on SOTG | ||
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:18 shawster wrote: so i'm in the middle of the shitstorm but i gotta ask something, i can't really form an opinion so from what i've read so far, puma was approached by eg directly and this was questionable. but why is giving a player a lucrative contract in any way stealing a player? why couldn't the korean team give him a offer that matches EG's offer? if TSL wasn't able to match it and puma went to EG that wouldn't be unethical or anything, it's just one team wanting a player more than another team. unless the shitstorm is about how the management could've stopped puma from leaving and they weren't able to. maybe it's my western state of mind that tells me that if one team pays more the team should get it. You came in really late to this argument, this has already been discussed multiple times. People can't agree on if it is right or wrong to do something like that. | ||
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Jamial
Denmark1289 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:18 Ome wrote: Oh certainly, but in this case it looks like there was no contract present, or if there was a contract, Puma was willing to pay the penalties in that contract to move to EG. And I think in the future, if SC2 gets large enough that it's required, a governing body will be created to outline things for all players/teams/fans, on what they can and can't do. My post(s) shouldn't be read as if I think EG or Puma did anything wrong. I don't care. There was no contract between Puma and TSL, hence no clauses or anything. I'm "attacking" Jiveturkey's oppinion that contracts shouldn't matter, and Teams should be able to approach contracted players before they approach said player's team. | ||
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TedJustice
Canada1324 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:20 GreEny K wrote: You came in really late to this argument, this has already been discussed multiple times. People can't agree on if it is right or wrong to do something like that. Wasn't the problem that they didn't even give TSL a chance to convince puma to stay before making their offer? | ||
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Stosh
United States32 Posts
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PanzerKing
United States483 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:17 babylon wrote: Doubt it. Rain went to Fnatic, and nobody's feelings were hurt. FXO just bought fOu and nobody's feelings were hurt. They're protesting more about the manner in which the switch happened than the fact that it happened. Or they didn't care about Rain because they are concentrating on their newer players, which until recently included Puma. And the FXO / foU thing is completely unrelated, bearing absolutely no similarity to this situation. I mean, what sounds more realistic - that he's really upset, on principle, that they didn't ask him for permission before making an offer to Puma, or that his team just lost their star player and the cornerstone of their 'new talent' approach because EG made an offer that he couldn't match and he's venting his frustration? | ||
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EtohEtoh
Canada669 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:08 TheButtonmen wrote: Not really the Korean E-sports model (aka Kespa) has contracts for everything, they regulate their players so much they pretty much own them. Stop trying to pretend that Korea is some magical place where everything works off trust and respect. Anyone who has ever done business with a Korean company can assure you that they just like everyone else sign contracts, make binding agreements and specify their terms. yes, but Kespa was BW and the korean SC2 was still young and some would say, following this incident still naive. For all intents and purposes, the korean SC2 teams were working without contracts in some "magical" fashion. Now, they may go back to contracts and take a similar model to Kespa, hopefully without the same horror stories with Kespa as now there are other alternatives. Don't get me wrong, this was bound to happen. There's a reason people use contracts everywhere, it's just that because of this incident, the blame gets placed on the west. | ||
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[Atomic]Peace
United States451 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:19 LegendaryZ wrote: I'm concerned about the effects this event is going to have. Some people seem to believe that this kind of thing is somehow positive for eSports and will help it grow because players will have more power to guarantee themselves better conditions. I disagree with this and believe that it may very well negatively affect the eSports scene. Up until this point, the Starcraft 2 scene has largely been run on trust and cooperation. This is what has allowed for the relative lack of regulation within teams and across leagues. EG in this instance has essentially abused that trust and taken advantage of it by poaching a player at a foreign event. You can certainly fault TSL for lacking foresight and not mandating a contract, but this type of naivete is pretty much what many people praised about the SC2 scene. We like to bash KeSPA for its heavy regulations and control over players, but that's exactly what people faulting TSL are arguing should be the norm while at the same time not wanting such a regulatory body to come into fruition. I'm afraid that a KeSPA-like organization or at least that type of atmosphere is going to be created in response to this, effectively forcing players into contracts and heavily regulating their freedoms in an effort for teams to ensure the protection of their investments. While what EG has done here isn't necessarily wrong, it can't be denied that they've effectively "changed the game" as far as the way teams and players interact goes and the statement that Manager Lee made about measures being put into place in order to prevent this from happening in the future is an immediate indicator of that. The sweet and innocent SC2 scene that we've known so far has all of a sudden become serious business with all of the atmosphere of distrust that comes with it. It may make the scene more legitimate and closer to the real sports leagues that we see today, but I wonder if that's what we really want for SC2. After all, KeSPA was undeniably an effective organization whose methods, while somewhat ruthless, are tried and true in the business sense (EG would have never been able to pull this on one of their teams or players). Honestly though, when you consider this, don't we want teams to be a little bit more naive and trusting if only for the sake of the players? KeSPA2 will only happen in the players themselves accept it. And I think they wont, given the treatment of players under KeSPA. | ||
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StatikKhaos
United States214 Posts
the head coach says that they didnt have a contract | ||
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shawster
Canada2485 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:20 GreEny K wrote: You came in really late to this argument, this has already been discussed multiple times. People can't agree on if it is right or wrong to do something like that. oh so people are arguing over whether it's right for a player to go where the money is? or is it about how foreign teams shouldn't confront the player without talking to the team? still kinda lost | ||
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MonsieurGrimm
Canada2441 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:22 [Atomic]Peace wrote: KeSPA2 will only happen in the players themselves accept it. And I think they wont, given the treatment of players under KeSPA. I really hope they don't. | ||
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babylon
8765 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:18 GreEny K wrote: Rain was already off the team before Fnatic picked him up. FXO didn't buy fOu, fOu approached them with the offer. My point being that I don't think TSL is angry because Puma went to a foreign team. Thus far, up until now, Koreans joining foreign teams hasn't really been an issue. (And yes, my bad. fOu approached FXO to ask for a sponsorship, FXO counter-offered with a merge, fOu accepted.) I actually think that if another Korean team approached Puma directly, the shitstorm would be much, much, much bigger, if only in Korea. | ||
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Lokian
United States699 Posts
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