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Hmm. I really like a lot of EG players, but their organization seems to run into a lot of these kinds of fubars which is kind of a shame. I hope that the Korean SC2 Association doesn't end up going all KeSPA on us. They need some good regulations to protect their teams from being picked clean, of course, I just hope they don't go too far with their regulation.
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GET EG IN GSTL NOWWWWWWWWWW
Seriously, if what the TSL Coach says about EG approaching players from other teams is true, EG in the GSTL would be hella drama exciting!
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On July 22 2011 03:35 Lucidity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:21 Grimsong wrote:On July 22 2011 02:54 Jibba wrote:On July 22 2011 02:45 JasKo wrote:
SOME of you are ridiculous do you not know how it works in real sports? the player normally goes to the highest bidder, loyalty is sometimes involved, but only when the money change wont make that much of a difference. What EG did wasn't shady, in fact, it is helping players to actually be able to make a living off of e sports. TSL could have offered more, but they couldn't. Why should Puma, and other players, be deprived of this opportunity? That's not at all how it works in real sports. What bothers me far more than the EG-TSL situation is all the idiots in this thread who chime in with an inane comment like "this is just like real sports!" when it actually isn't. Professional sports have an organized system of free agency whereby original teams generally get Right Of First Refusal on anyone that isn't an unrestricted free agent. That usually means that they can match or outbid other teams to retain their players. An unrestricted free agent is teamless. While these tiers don't exist in SC2 (yet), it's pretty clear Puma wasn't teamless. We don't know the details of TSL's contracts but it doesn't seem very strong or else it would have a NCC, but that still doesn't make someone an unrestricted free agent, and it still doesn't make this situation anything like professional sports or Lebron/Miami. Hold on here. You're wrong. Here's why. Rudy Fernandez is a professional basketball player. (Puma is a SC2 pro SC2 player) He plays within the league, the NBA (Currently there is no equivalent to the NBA in SC2. But in a sense, you could say that Korea is a league. and North America is a league. Lets say that. I like it as an analogy.) While Rudy Fernandez is being contracted within the NBA, Rudy Fernandez (While Puma was playing with TSL. We dont know 100% whether he is contracted or not, and even if he is, we dont know that the contract has the wording involved to legally stop something like this from happening, in Korea) was offered a contract from a team in Spain (a team that exists outside of the league, the NBA. EG, a team that exists outside of Korea). The NBA did not fine, or go after, or threaten, the Spanish club that was offering Rudy a contract. Why? Because they aren't a part of their association. They can't pursue anything, realistically, because they aren't affiliated. The league cant impose any infractions because they are not related or under the same rules and regulations. Rudy signing a contract with Spain to play Basketball is equivalent to Rudy signing a contract with South Africa to go Alligator Hunting. It's his choice. He can do whatever he wants while still honoring his contract. If he chose to play in Spain, he would have to work out with his current team (Dallas Mavericks. TSL) how to work out the contract. Whether it's them essentially waiving his contract (what TSL did to Puma, oh hello analogy), or sitting on it as it will be valid if he ever tries to re-enter the league, the NBA (whatever wording that contract he may have with TSL would be valid because he'd be re-entering that league,perse). That would have been up to Dallas/Rudy to sort out. But Spain had every right to offer the contract without asking Mark Cuban (the owner of the Dallas team) if he'd be ok with it. And guess what? No one in the NBA gave a damn about it because this is a common occurence in the league. Alligators are only native to the United States and China. (And we don't hunt crocodiles here.) As for your NBA analogy. What utter horseshit. Contract law doesn't simply disappear when someone outside of your league offers you another contract. I'm sure you don't follow soccer, but if you did you'd know that CLUBS have to accept offers from other clubs if those clubs are interested in buying a player. The player can't go to any club that offers him a contract all willy-nilly, whether the club is in another league, another country or another continent. "Can't pursue coz they're not affiliated". What a laugh!
In soccer, all clubs are under their continents main governing body (UEFA in Europe, CONCACAF in NA, etc.) and FIFA. So his analogy still works.
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I have no problem with what EG did considering there was no contract, though they should probably have contacted the other team first. If it takes something like this for naive korean teams to start contracting their players (and maybe having to pay out better saleries to keep them), then this is good for the sc scene.
What I do continually have a problem with is EG stretching the truth and telling small lies whenever news like this comes up to try to make themselves sound better. It always ends up just making them look worse when the truth comes out.
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On July 22 2011 03:39 Grimsong wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:38 Namu wrote:On July 22 2011 03:36 alexhard wrote:On July 22 2011 03:31 StarcraftKevin wrote:
Why didn't sir scoots approach the coach of the tsl for the player offer like fxo did with fou? Because PuMa was, contractually speaking, not a TSL player. There's nothing to talk about with the TSL owners, sine the player isn't theirs. yeah, so basically the majority of the the starcraft 2 progamers are not in a team contractually speaking. what? And this is true. Unless youre contractually signed somewhere, you're not contractually signed somewhere. What's to talk about in regards to that?
i'm saying it's pointless to state something like that when the entire progaming scene right now has no contracts. being a part of the team is more than just contracts. yes you can be a douchebag and say "hey this guy doesn't have a contract, TECHNICALLY he's not on the team" and just ignore the team in the process of acquiring the player, but is that the right thing to do? no, it's just exploiting
i honestly don't understand how people don't understand what coach lee said in the op, that it's courtesy to contact the team.
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EG are as always, unprofessional. This is the kind of thing that will ruin eSports. Their HoN-team was as shady as the rest of the unprofessional douchebags within that orga.
From now on EG is dead to me, more dead then Derek Zoolanders dead mother.
Good day.
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On July 22 2011 03:41 zergtossy wrote:
geez i dont understand why everyone is getting warned so much and temp banned? a kid says why with a sad face and you temp him! wtf
Because this thread is filled with some of the stupidest shit of all time, including tons of posts that clearly indicate not having read the OP.
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i dont feel sorry for TSL if they didnt concluded any contracts with their players. its just naive and they get punished for it. that kind of thing happens everyday. TSL should have known betterOn July 22 2011 03:42 Namu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:39 Grimsong wrote:On July 22 2011 03:38 Namu wrote:On July 22 2011 03:36 alexhard wrote:On July 22 2011 03:31 StarcraftKevin wrote:
Why didn't sir scoots approach the coach of the tsl for the player offer like fxo did with fou? Because PuMa was, contractually speaking, not a TSL player. There's nothing to talk about with the TSL owners, sine the player isn't theirs. yeah, so basically the majority of the the starcraft 2 progamers are not in a team contractually speaking. what? And this is true. Unless youre contractually signed somewhere, you're not contractually signed somewhere. What's to talk about in regards to that? i'm saying it's pointless to state something like that when the entire progaming scene right now has no contracts. being a part of the team is more than just contracts. yes you can be a douchebag and say "hey this guy doesn't have a contract, TECHNICALLY he's not on the team" and just ignore the team in the process of acquiring the player, but is that the right thing to do? no, it's just exploitingi honestly don't understand how people don't understand what coach lee said in the op, that it's courtesy to contact the team. if people are so dumb and naive to get exploited im not sorry for them. there are reasons why contracts exist despite drafting those are a pain in the ass and keeping the promise is always hard for both parties
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It would be a huge shame if the SC2 players association in Korea cracks down as a result of this issue. I foresee some draconian rules about when a player can and can't move between teams. What should happen is teams should play their players a fair salary and draw up contracts with their players. Anything stricter is hurting the players and allowing teams to retain talent for less money than it is worth.
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Pretty retarded to not have their players under contracts considering how huge the scene is and the money invested in it.
Also Puma probably left for the similiar reasons that Rain/Trickster/FD left. So obviously there's something up with their administration that didn't work out for PuMa.
Play2Win?
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On July 22 2011 03:39 MrDudeMan wrote:
So... did EG state that Puma approached them? Or was that just what the TSL guy said? Also, seeing as how there is no contract, EG is not in the wrong at all. They don't have any sort of moral obligation to inform TSL, sure Puma maybe should have talked to the coaches about the offer he got, but really if TSL is not paying him why would he stay?
That's just what the TSL guy said.
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This is actually kinda funny. Not too long ago, near the end of my BW watching days (aka, a couple weeks before SC2 came out), a lot of people were very concerned about the treatment of players and comparing them to slaves or child labor. One of the things that empowered that were contracts and a very rigid structure of how professional gaming was organized in Korea. Now that this has come up, it seems the opposite. Everyone's saying how TSL has no right to Puma because he didn't sign a contract and that if they wanted him to stay, they should have done just that.
It seems we've come to the opposite extreme! Had the old rules been in play, Puma would not even be allowed to officially talk to the EG guys unless he had permission from his coaches. I don't think I care enough to go batshit crazy if EG aquires Puma by underhanded tatics, but I find it interesting that these players now how this freedom to move around as they please. Of course this should never be abused and I think that EG should respect TSL enough to at least inform the TSL coaches that they were considering recruiting Puma, because eventually, if this happens too much, I wouldn't doubt if Korea reinstated a strict policy for recruiting and player transaction. Once this happens, the power and influence drops out of the players hand and purely into the coaches hands.
From now on, I think EG or any foreign team (or any Korean team for that fact) should be open about potential trades in order to avoid miscommunication or trouble in general. I think if EG would have talked to TSL, both sides would have realized that this would be a great oppurtunity for Puma, who often fell to the background as a practice partner for the other players, without having the conflict and discomfort between the two teams.
Lastly, I feel like this might become a trend soon. There's a lot of talent and skill in the Korean ranks. However, many of them may never become star players in Korea and instead will move out to make a name in another country. This happens in every sport. Most olympic coaches in any country are usually recruited from single countries known to excel in that sport. Samething with chinese table tennis players and american basketball players in far east asian countries. In the end, it ends up benefitting both sides, so they might as well be open about it.
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On July 22 2011 03:39 JKira wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:32 Grimsong wrote:On July 22 2011 03:29 jmbthirteen wrote:On July 22 2011 03:21 Grimsong wrote:On July 22 2011 02:54 Jibba wrote:On July 22 2011 02:45 JasKo wrote:
SOME of you are ridiculous do you not know how it works in real sports? the player normally goes to the highest bidder, loyalty is sometimes involved, but only when the money change wont make that much of a difference. What EG did wasn't shady, in fact, it is helping players to actually be able to make a living off of e sports. TSL could have offered more, but they couldn't. Why should Puma, and other players, be deprived of this opportunity? That's not at all how it works in real sports. What bothers me far more than the EG-TSL situation is all the idiots in this thread who chime in with an inane comment like "this is just like real sports!" when it actually isn't. Professional sports have an organized system of free agency whereby original teams generally get Right Of First Refusal on anyone that isn't an unrestricted free agent. That usually means that they can match or outbid other teams to retain their players. An unrestricted free agent is teamless. While these tiers don't exist in SC2 (yet), it's pretty clear Puma wasn't teamless. We don't know the details of TSL's contracts but it doesn't seem very strong or else it would have a NCC, but that still doesn't make someone an unrestricted free agent, and it still doesn't make this situation anything like professional sports or Lebron/Miami. Hold on here. You're wrong. Here's why. Rudy Fernandez is a professional basketball player. (Puma is a SC2 pro SC2 player) He plays within the league, the NBA (Currently there is no equivalent to the NBA in SC2. But in a sense, you could say that Korea is a league. and North America is a league. Lets say that. I like it as an analogy.) While Rudy Fernandez is being contracted within the NBA, Rudy Fernandez (While Puma was playing with TSL. We dont know 100% whether he is contracted or not, and even if he is, we dont know that the contract has the wording involved to legally stop something like this from happening, in Korea) was offered a contract from a team in Spain (a team that exists outside of the league, the NBA. EG, a team that exists outside of Korea). The NBA did not fine, or go after, or threaten, the Spanish club that was offering Rudy a contract. Why? Because they aren't a part of their association. They can't pursue anything, realistically, because they aren't affiliated. The league cant impose any infractions because they are not related or under the same rules and regulations. Rudy signing a contract with Spain to play Basketball is equivalent to Rudy signing a contract with South Africa to go Alligator Hunting. It's his choice. He can do whatever he wants while still honoring his contract. If he chose to play in Spain, he would have to work out with his current team (Dallas Mavericks. TSL) how to work out the contract. Whether it's them essentially waiving his contract (what TSL did to Puma, oh hello analogy), or sitting on it as it will be valid if he ever tries to re-enter the league, the NBA (whatever wording that contract he may have with TSL would be valid because he'd be re-entering that league,perse). That would have been up to Dallas/Rudy to sort out. But Spain had every right to offer the contract without asking Mark Cuban (the owner of the Dallas team) if he'd be ok with it. And guess what? No one in the NBA gave a damn about it because this is a common occurence in the league. You know the only reason Rudy is able to do this is the lockout right? Otherwise he would be voiding his contract with the mavs who would probably say, "hey you can't play in spain, you play for us". But since the nba is in a lockout, his contract is currently suspended and the league has no power over the players. The contract was offered pre-lockout, NBA rules still applied, Mavs did not seek tampering lawsuit. Because they couldn't. It wasn't an NBA team trying to take a player from another NBA team. No constant governing body. The mavs and rudy would have had to chalk out the remainder of the contract between them, but the Mavs could not stop Rudy from going to Spain if he chose to. EDIT: And to even add fuel to the fire, obviously Puma didnt have a contract based on whats come out, so that point is moot. I think Mavs didn't pursue lawsuit or get angry because it was just Rudy Fernandez :p
LOL so true! I was actually banging the drum of keeping Jordan Hamilton but anyway this is an SC2 forum so....
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On July 22 2011 03:41 Mr Showtime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 15:00 Milkis wrote:
Update: TSL Coach Lee Woon Jae explains his stance
Coach Lee Woon Jae of TSL talked with TeamLiquid, trying to clear up some of the misunderstandings while explaining the situation from his point of view:
"It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts.
I'm sorry, but that's just downright stupid. You should know that stuff like this is going to happen if you don't have contracts. This a business and a full time job for these players. Relying on "trust and faith" is quite idiotic to put it bluntly. Hopefully this is a good lesson to all teams and managers out there.
Except that this method WORKED FOR THEM until a FOREIGN TEAM took a player.
Relying on "trust and faith" in a society that highly prides honor and family is not idiotic.
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On July 22 2011 03:40 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:34 TBO wrote:
does anyone know how common oral or even implied-in-fact contracts are in Korea? (I mean staying on a team for months, getting accomodation and food, maybe even a salary can very much be considered as a contractual relationship even without a contract in some countries as far as I know) I don't know what the law is in Korea, but based on my (pretty good) knowledge of U.S. contract law I would be very surprised if any court would recognize an implied contract here that would prevent PuMa from talking to other teams or switching to another team. U.S. courts are quite hostile to oral and especially implied contracts; the thinking is (and it's smart thinking) that if the parties really wanted to bind themselves, they would have written their terms out. And I mean, the argument that PuMa committed never to switch to another SC2 team by accepting payment for his services at TSL is pretty absurd on its face.
This is the crux. Unless TSL can show that PuMa had an oral agreement to stay for a determinable, finite and reasonable period of time (reasonable being something not like 50 years), there isn't even a way to start the argument.
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Honestly... There is nothing to discusss untill EG comes forward and makes a statement... We have the one side of the story and that is it... Wait untill EG says something to start making claims about being underhanded and sleezy and all that jazz
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Not having every player sign a contract and instead having reasoned discussion between teams in the event of a player wanting to switch is preferable, but it's no longer an option now that foreign companies will attempt to poach players without ever consulting the teams. End of story. 
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On July 22 2011 03:34 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:31 StarcraftKevin wrote:
Why didn't sir scoots approach the coach of the tsl for the player offer like fxo did with fou? The 2 reasons for that are that 1 FXO didnt approach FOU, FOU approached FXO for sponsorships for foreign tournaments and FXO made a counter arrangement to buy the team. This brings me to point 2 which is that EG isnt trying to aquire TSL they just wanted Puma on there team.
My question is then why didn't eg approach tsl for player buyout? Was it because puma wasn't legally bound to tsl?
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On July 22 2011 03:40 Snorkle wrote:
Welcome to big business. Also as I said before, the west needs to stop having big tournaments and paying players big money. Its ruining Esports.
LOL.... are you serious?
I mean... just... wow.
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EPT
