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OsC
Canada542 Posts
i use to care a lot about ladder now not any more. ladder games are just practice games. thats it. no real testament to how good you are, as all kinds of random shit goes on on ladder, cheese, all in, retarded unorthodox play. look at idra, he's in masters. ladder doesnt matter | ||
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Eknoid4
United States902 Posts
On July 16 2011 05:41 Oscatron wrote: ladder honestly doesnt even matter i use to care a lot about ladder now not any more. ladder games are just practice games. thats it. no real testament to how good you are, as all kinds of random shit goes on on ladder, cheese, all in, retarded unorthodox play. look at idra, he's in masters. ladder doesnt matter Idra went over bonus pool cap. Stop pretending you know anything. Unorthodox does not retarded make. Idra even understands that. | ||
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svefnleysi
Iceland623 Posts
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On July 16 2011 05:38 SxYSpAz wrote: It's really hard to set up a ranking system, and all in all, I think blizzard has done really well. It would be awesome if they didn't let you rank up near as easily by noticing that you're a cheesy player. or even better, the people with the shortest games play the other people with the shortest games, so they can cheese each other all to hell. It sucks playing people in high diamond that are clearly only good at one aspect of the game and do the same cheesey build every game, but i think diamond is probably the cheesiest (or most successful cheese) so i see it kinda as a rite of passage to get into masters... where i hope there's less early game all ins  its not hard and has been done before in many games like chess. I strongly dislike the "psychological" attitude of hiding information. It fails hard, because intransparency creates uncertainty and makes people keep away from laddering. just give us a straight elo (or mmr) system with all the numbers: ELO, winrate against each races, winrate overall, build diversity (to mark one trick ponys) | ||
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SxYSpAz
United States1451 Posts
On July 16 2011 05:53 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: its not hard and has been done before in many games like chess. I strongly dislike the "psychological" attitude of hiding information. It fails hard, because intransparency creates uncertainty and makes people keep away from laddering. just give us a straight elo (or mmr) system with all the numbers: ELO, winrate against each races, winrate overall, build diversity (to mark one trick ponys) yeah, stats would be great! but that's not what i was talking about at all. I was just saying it's hard to completely make leagues based on skill, cause people can just 7pool everygame and get pretty deep. also, why couldn't you just say attitude? why does it have to be "psychological" attitude. haha. jp  | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On July 16 2011 05:58 SxYSpAz wrote: yeah, stats would be great! but that's not what i was talking about at all. I was just saying it's hard to completely make leagues based on skill, cause people can just 7pool everygame and get pretty deep. also, why couldn't you just say attitude? why does it have to be "psychological" attitude. haha. jp winning is the only skill that counts. specialized players are common in other sports, too (e.g. serve and volley play in tennis). however i agree that a well executed cheese can get you to master no problem (did that or 2 straight ladder sessions and was matched up agains #1 master players). However bored me .. | ||
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Tuplex
80 Posts
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ronpaul012
United States769 Posts
Then the game went on sale, so I figured I'd pick up a new account and try a different race. Normally a protoss player, I figured I'd play some zerg. So I went ahead and played my placement matches, and went 4-1 and got placed in.....platinum. Damn it, I knew I wasnt as good with zerg as I am protoss, but blizzard thinks I am. But then I started playing, playing high golds/low plats and winning around half my games(except zvz, thats hard). And this is what worries me, that blizzard tells people that all platinum players are equal to each other. My protoss would kick my zerg's ass. It wouldn't even be close, and I know that my secret mmr's would reflect that. However; instead of being clear about skill level, blizzard has these ridiculous skill tiers. I really wish that they went ahead and had more rankings, or just showed your mmr. Ever since I got placed in platinum again I stopped caring about rank at all, because there are gold players out there better than me, and there's diamond players that are worse than me, so who cares what blizzard tries to tell me. | ||
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crms
United States11933 Posts
On July 15 2011 15:29 holyhalo5 wrote: It's not a perfect system, but it's the best one possible. Could you think of a better way to "give people credible ranks", short of having Blizzard employees observe every game played and award points based on skill and not wins? have the points showing be your actual mmr? sounds like a much better way to me. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
One of the most interesting things about Blizzard's ladder is how fast it's able to put you in approximately the correct position. There are downsides to this as well, however. For example, if MMR works how many of us think it does, your MMR could shift tremendously from day to day. To put it into perspective with Elo, it's like a 2500 point capped system where you can move 400 points in a single day with a record that actually isn't that bad. The advantage to this kind of system is that it actually doesn't reward players from playing more games after a very short period. The disadvantage is obviously the fact that everybody seems at mercy of the winds of "skill." This is where the point system comes in. With the points added on to the MMR, it allows stability for the population that spends it's bonus pool, or at least those that try to keep it low. After spending your bonus pool, your points only end up shifting maybe 50-70 points in one day, which is reminiscent of Elo stability. At the same time, with MMR guiding point gains and losses, people find themselves in the correct position within only 20 or so games under their belt, which is incredibly impressive for systems of 100k+ players. Even if they have to wade through 900 more bonus pool, they are essentially at an adjusted point level that properly reflects their skill. The rest of those points can be seen as a way to refine the ranking of a player among a league/division. | ||
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Xercen
United Kingdom375 Posts
On July 16 2011 05:41 Oscatron wrote: ladder honestly doesnt even matter i use to care a lot about ladder now not any more. ladder games are just practice games. thats it. no real testament to how good you are, as all kinds of random shit goes on on ladder, cheese, all in, retarded unorthodox play. look at idra, he's in masters. ladder doesnt matter i'd like to know what league you are in. Because knowing how to defend all-ins and recognition of enemy builds/timings are indicative of your league. GM league = you have all of that plus high apm to carry all those tasks out effectively. Ladder games are only practice for the top top progamers like nestea idra mc mvp thorzain. For the rest of us in non GM leagues, it's very much practice orientated. | ||
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Ryndika
1489 Posts
On July 15 2011 15:29 holyhalo5 wrote: It's not a perfect system, but it's the best one possible. Could you think of a better way to "give people credible ranks", short of having Blizzard employees observe every game played and award points based on skill and not wins? Gives us direct MMR stats. That actually is the best possible one, and that's because imo it shows exact MMR unlike the League/Rank where you get positioned to places where your MMR isn't. For example person can have MMR so that he faces only diamond+ leagues but is in platinium league. If we had direct MMR stat we would see already where he is. That's my opinion tho. | ||
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OsC
Canada542 Posts
On July 16 2011 09:30 Xercen wrote: i'd like to know what league you are in. Because knowing how to defend all-ins and recognition of enemy builds/timings are indicative of your league. GM league = you have all of that plus high apm to carry all those tasks out effectively. Ladder games are only practice for the top top progamers like nestea idra mc mvp thorzain. For the rest of us in non GM leagues, it's very much practice orientated. masters right now former top 200 na and i agree knowing how to defend all ins and everything is part of how good you are, but ladder doesnt really mean anything. there are gonna be players in gold better than players in plat. not everyone is placed specifically where they belong. what i mean to say is, ladder rank/points is a generalization, but it is not accurate at all imo. too many factors, like idra for example who dropped down to masters cause he didnt play on the ladder for a while. just cause some guy is rank 10 on GM doesnt mean he is the #10 best player in NA. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On July 16 2011 08:36 ronpaul012 wrote: Yeah the system does feel pretty messed up for me personally. On my main account, I started about 5 months ago new and went from terrible to top platinum, and this is where you laugh. Top platinum, as if its much different from gold/low or even mid platinum. I myself didn't think there was that much of a difference, just a bit more of control I thought. I play 50/50 diamond/plat players, but there's not much difference between the diamond i'm playing, and high diamond, or the different levels of platinum's. Then the game went on sale, so I figured I'd pick up a new account and try a different race. Normally a protoss player, I figured I'd play some zerg. So I went ahead and played my placement matches, and went 4-1 and got placed in.....platinum. Damn it, I knew I wasnt as good with zerg as I am protoss, but blizzard thinks I am. But then I started playing, playing high golds/low plats and winning around half my games(except zvz, thats hard). And this is what worries me, that blizzard tells people that all platinum players are equal to each other. My protoss would kick my zerg's ass. It wouldn't even be close, and I know that my secret mmr's would reflect that. However; instead of being clear about skill level, blizzard has these ridiculous skill tiers. I really wish that they went ahead and had more rankings, or just showed your mmr. Ever since I got placed in platinum again I stopped caring about rank at all, because there are gold players out there better than me, and there's diamond players that are worse than me, so who cares what blizzard tries to tell me. Believe it or not, no, gold players aren't better than you overall. They may macro better than you or execute a build better than you, but they have shown themselves to time and time again to not perform as well as you. There's much more to learning SC2 than doing basic tasks or other really objectionable aspects. Many times, what propels people into higher leagues is their ability to deal with open-ended engagements. Some people achieve this by executing a very early strategy that basically requires the opponent to respond incorrectly in order to win (cheese and early all-ins), and others achieve this by making slight adjustments in their longer term strategy every time they encounter these early tactics. What you experience when you feel somebody from a lower league is better than you is a situation where they routinely defeat your strategy/tactic or one that you have a hard time against. You fail to see the ugly side of their situation, where those same people lose to the most ridiculous things that you would never succumb to. On the flip side, when you feel you're better than somebody who is ranked higher than you, it's usually a case of "I work harder and execute X, Y, and Z better than them!" When, in fact, X, Y, and Z aren't even aspects they rely on to win their games. Imagine if you were god's gift to the world of marine micro. You'd look at players like MMA and scoff at their marine control. However, your macro is so terrible that you have trouble getting beyond 20 marines by 10 minutes in. This is a wild and obvious example, but it shows exactly what happens when you claim you're better than people definitively ranked higher than you. | ||
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Eknoid4
United States902 Posts
On July 16 2011 05:43 svefnleysi wrote: MMR has a much better correlation with skill than rank. Unfortunately they won't show us our MMR. the more games you play the closer your rating gets to your MMR thats the whole point derp | ||
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Xercen
United Kingdom375 Posts
On July 16 2011 09:35 Oscatron wrote: masters right now former top 200 na and i agree knowing how to defend all ins and everything is part of how good you are, but ladder doesnt really mean anything. there are gonna be players in gold better than players in plat. not everyone is placed specifically where they belong. what i mean to say is, ladder rank/points is a generalization, but it is not accurate at all imo. too many factors, like idra for example who dropped down to masters cause he didnt play on the ladder for a while. just cause some guy is rank 10 on GM doesnt mean he is the #10 best player in NA. very true but since ladder is the only thing we have to go on with regards to how good a player is apart from tournament rankings/wins, then we have to assume people play serious on ladder and by that we can see the best players are on ladder. Of course, some players don't play on ladder much, like dimaga, but when they do, they usually go to rank 1, so you can say dimaga is a top 5 zerg in eu. Since you were GM but dropped down to masters, i think the standard has increased on the ladder and thus you slipped down...this shows how competitive ladder has become. The skill of the people on ladder has increased so much in the past 6 months it's crazy! I used to be a diamond terran but switched to zerg and i'm in plat eu atm. I face terrans who multidrop me when that never happened 3 months previously. I'm loving it because the game is improving massively. | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On July 16 2011 05:38 SxYSpAz wrote: It's really hard to set up a ranking system, and all in all, I think blizzard has done really well. It would be awesome if they didn't let you rank up near as easily by noticing that you're a cheesy player. or even better, the people with the shortest games play the other people with the shortest games, so they can cheese each other all to hell. It sucks playing people in high diamond that are clearly only good at one aspect of the game and do the same cheesey build every game, but i think diamond is probably the cheesiest (or most successful cheese) so i see it kinda as a rite of passage to get into masters... where i hope there's less early game all ins The argument that the ladder is not creditable because bad players can cheese their way into masters seems to be caused by a lack of thinking. The ladder only tracks whether you win or lose, so if using cheese allows you to when often enough to get into masters, then that's a correct and accurate assessment of how good you are. Do you want the ladder to somehow detect a cheese build, and make it so that wins using cheese do not count? How would that possibly work? I would also add that cheese is a valid and legitimate way to play the game. | ||
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BlizzrdSlave
161 Posts
On July 16 2011 11:00 Eknoid4 wrote: the more games you play the closer your rating gets to your MMR thats the whole point derp if someone wins 5 placements through getting lucky matches, and is put in plat at the start of a season, what determines who gets masters? Its a race to score games sooner than anyone else and so get that placement right? Or is it perhaps that if everyone starts from absolute zero (think season 1 where noone had MMR or points or any of that), then who gets masters then? Is it based solely on the first five placement matches, or do people fight each other and if they hold an even 50/50 w/l while different MMR brackets of opponents come and go, does that put you in master? Because if so, a number of people can get theoretically lucky, considering how many people DO in fact play, and thus attain masters while still not actually being very good. And the reason they hold onto this master position is because there's others like them in all leagues, so there's no shortage of being matched against players of similar MMR that keeps your MMR inflated enough to stay in masters. thats the whole point. And of course the more often you play the more your MMR will average out due to being matched by all types of players. If you're a master who hardly ever plays, you'll not only get more points overall from the bonus pool while consistent players have a small point gain through trading at a mere 130%, while you trade at 200% thanks to bonus pool, your MMR will also manage to stay up in the leagues because you will fight people who are in diamond or master who are just as bad as you, so you cant fall. Its like someone else in this thread said, hes not that great, but he gives masters ass whoopings sometimes while sometimes diamond level whoop him. and yet people arent losing their master placement. like someone else in this thread said, people are just saying that masters arent that good here because they want to feel better about themselves. Well, if there was transparency and TRUE skill placement that people could see, there would be no reason for believe to say or believe that. If the system is causing people to say that, maybe its a symptom of the fact that people are consistently fighting leagues above them and thrashing them while people in their own league sometimes thrash them. It doesn't make sense. Here's a question: If it takes 5 wins in placement to get plat, that means you have to earn diamond right? Yet if someone is struggling vs other plats but shoving their fist down some diamond throat, clearly the diamond did not earn their position through good gameplay, but plat vs plat will keep eating each other's MMR so neither will advance, because they'll trade back and forth with each other just as much as diamond, and so noone will go anywhere. Its like spinning tires in the mud. | ||
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RobCorso
United States111 Posts
[QUOTE]On July 15 2011 15:19 NicoLoco wrote: Then I went back up after 14 straight wins and was hitting diamonds again. Now, it seems that some of the people who are diamond, not top 8, but 12-20 rank, get utterly destroyed by me. ?[/QUOTE] You won 14 games and went from silver to diamond? I won 18 games in a row and only went from rank 60 bronze to rank 40 bronze T_T silver now | ||
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hooktits
United States972 Posts
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