EPTCredibility of ladder rank - Page 8
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King of Kings
Germany481 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On July 18 2011 07:55 BlizzrdSlave wrote: lol. and while his post was simply wrong, your post was strawmanned and trollish to the extreme. it had absolutely no content, so Im going to treat it as such. additionally, I AM likely on the verge of promotion, yet its locked ladder so i cant really do that can I? See how someone can be different in skill than their league? Of perhaps what about the so called tiers or brackets, where an MMR of plat in one league is comparable to the MMR of gold or the MMR of diamond of another league, because there's a graduated system at work, which is what everyone else here has been explaining. all this leads back to my central point, that league is not an indicator of skill like people like you think it is. so brandish your e-peen more and dodge my question of what league you are. I really don't care that you're being obstinate in the face of facts. for the record, my macro is quite good. I learned rhythmic perfect queen injects three weeks ago. I bought this game about 5 weeks ago. I also dont have any weakness against low league cheeses. having seen (and done) them all, and having perfected early game macro and BO, I can easily defend any cheese with a generic opening, into a drone cut or tech rush as necessary. wall off paylon cannon rushes are perhaps the most easy for me to beat, next in order being marine scv all in, banshee rush, VR rush, etc. you're now going to say "VR and banshee isnt cheese lol nub". Except that low league people learn this, and they suddenly start winning every game until they meet someone who counters it perfectly, whether they know its coming or not. that is by definition cheese. You sound like you have the skill of a god. There is no way you can do all those things well and still lose to other people in the lower leagues. | ||
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Not_That
287 Posts
On July 17 2011 22:59 paralleluniverse wrote: Currently, all division modifiers are unknown. So this doesn't work. There's no way to get a "true" rank for players under Masters. This works brilliantly. You don't need to know the exact division modifiers to get a relative idea. Let's say I'm in Diamond and I want to compare myself to another guy who is in Diamond. Now, division tier offset wise, we might have a hidden factor of up to 378 points between us. But all I have to do is add up my points + unspent pool, compare it to his points + unspent pool, and then start watching our perspective match history info. If you are in Diamond you can easily have a vague idea of your division tier by simply looking at your opponents points + unspent pool over time and comparing. Try it. For your opponent, you can do the same. Particularly if either you are him are also sometimes matched vs platinum (or master) players, it makes it much easier. The same principle can be applied to other leagues as well, with the exception that other leagues have less division tiers (with the exception of Bronze) which make the job much easier in them. If you are curious about cross league comparison, that can be done as well to an extent, but for most people it is suffice to determine that higher league is nearly always higher ranked with the exception of a rock bottom X-leaguer vs a top notch Xminus1-leaguer. Or if you think all of this is too complicated (which it really isn't), then simply accept a maximal margin of error of around 378 points (for Diamond leaguers, much less for other leagues with exception of Bronze) and violla - ladder points + unspent bonus pool + league is all you need to know to compare 2 players. It is still MUCH superior to rank comparison, because frankly, if I tell you I am rank XX in league Y, it gives you no more information than if I were to simply state my league. For all you know, I am a #1 player in an empty division (or division full of inactives with 1350 unspent bonus pool) or rank 80 in the most competitive division one could imagine. That is why stating your rank is neigh meaningless, and points + unspent ladder pool should always be used. | ||
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epikAnglory
United States1120 Posts
Do not get me wrong, I am not a fan of him. However, he has well thought out cheeses and decent mechanics, if you go through his match history he has taken games from well-known players through macro games, and he ladders a hell lot every day. My understanding is league and ranking are 80% accurate, but the most accurate way nonetheless. With Blizzard hiding MMR from us, there really is no other way to determine the general area of how good a player is. While you cannot take league and points too seriously, it gives you a brief idea of what skill level the player is in. | ||
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lolsixtynine
United States600 Posts
And, as one might predict logically, he is miles ahead of low-mid masters players. Don't let his BM distract you from the fact that he's a much better player than 99.99% of people. | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On July 18 2011 22:30 Sated wrote: The ranks are only relevant if everyone plays the exact same number of games, ideally the number required to clean out their bonus pool and only that amount. Since most people don't do this (most probably play either way more or way less), the numerical rank they have in their league is irrelevant. That's just not the case. Your score converges on your MMR. If your MMR is stable, your score will be stable once your bonus points are used up. If you have a ton of losses your score will drop, but so will your MMR, and if the two end up out of whack, you'll start to receive a different number of points per game until the score converges on the MMR again. Basically, among players in a division who use up their bonus points, they will wind up ordered by their MMR, which is correlated directly with their chances of winning vs. another player with a given MMR. Playing lots of games beyond 0 bonus won't hurt or help as long as MMR is stable. (It may hurt or help if your MMR is moving around.) | ||
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TheFrankOne
United States667 Posts
On July 18 2011 07:55 BlizzrdSlave wrote: lol. and while his post was simply wrong, your post was strawmanned and trollish to the extreme. it had absolutely no content, so Im going to treat it as such. additionally, I AM likely on the verge of promotion, yet its locked ladder so i cant really do that can I? See how someone can be different in skill than their league? Of perhaps what about the so called tiers or brackets, where an MMR of plat in one league is comparable to the MMR of gold or the MMR of diamond of another league, because there's a graduated system at work, which is what everyone else here has been explaining. all this leads back to my central point, that league is not an indicator of skill like people like you think it is. so brandish your e-peen more and dodge my question of what league you are. I really don't care that you're being obstinate in the face of facts. for the record, my macro is quite good. I learned rhythmic perfect queen injects three weeks ago. I bought this game about 5 weeks ago. I also dont have any weakness against low league cheeses. having seen (and done) them all, and having perfected early game macro and BO, I can easily defend any cheese with a generic opening, into a drone cut or tech rush as necessary. wall off paylon cannon rushes are perhaps the most easy for me to beat, next in order being marine scv all in, banshee rush, VR rush, etc. you're now going to say "VR and banshee isnt cheese lol nub". Except that low league people learn this, and they suddenly start winning every game until they meet someone who counters it perfectly, whether they know its coming or not. that is by definition cheese. Its almost impossible to strawman the argument "i beat people above me; you wrong". You've spent a significant portion, almost 1/2, of your total play time during the ladder lock, I would assume you are better now than two weeks ago, probably significantly better. So you haven't been promoted now that you deserve it. Ladder lock = no promotions, deserved or otherwise. So there was something you weren't mentioning. Come back after season 3 starts if you're still platinum. Be less angry and more patient. | ||
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BlizzrdSlave
161 Posts
On July 18 2011 22:22 GreEny K wrote: That doesn't make you the better player... I've taken games off some people I should not have just because of timings attacks and abusing maps/ units and their weaknesses. yeah playing good and taking every advantage doesnt make you a better player than the person you beat /eyeroll. Tell me what map zerg is favored on? Most people say small maps are zerg death. But I absolutely LOVE playing a T or P on backwater gulch. right now if I lose during an "even" match, i lose 14 points, yet if I win, I get 10. yay for ladder points also being legitimate amirite? This also cycles back to my point about people with bonus pool being rewarded for not playing. if you lose more points than you can gain, that means your bonus pool is being taken away for playing more and thus losing more often if you happen to lose at all. because their bonus pool gain isnt being shrunk by constant games. On July 19 2011 04:41 TheFrankOne wrote: Its almost impossible to strawman the argument "i beat people above me; you wrong". You've spent a significant portion, almost 1/2, of your total play time during the ladder lock, I would assume you are better now than two weeks ago, probably significantly better. So you haven't been promoted now that you deserve it. Ladder lock = no promotions, deserved or otherwise. So there was something you weren't mentioning. Come back after season 3 starts if you're still platinum. Be less angry and more patient. not mad at all, son, I think it was just stupid for someone to strawman how im not that good and obviously where my skill level puts me, and stating im in plat for a reason, when I can counter that argument with simple points of what I do well. I mean, I played brood war since it came out. I think I know how to play an RTS. I think the system doesn't correlate to points or MMR vs skill level very much, or to your ladder placement. Which is why I'm explaining how things appear to actually work. On July 18 2011 22:30 Sated wrote: The ranks are only relevant if everyone plays the exact same number of games, ideally the number required to clean out their bonus pool and only that amount. Since most people don't do this (most probably play either way more or way less), the numerical rank they have in their league is irrelevant. For instance, I'm second in my league and I'm 7 points behind the guy at the top. They have twice as many wins as me but I have far more bonus pool than them. If I actually played enough to spend my bonus pool, I would be higher than the guy who is top and I'd probably still have less wins... but it's also possible that someone else in the league has more bonus pool left than I do and could overtake me if they actually bothered to play all of their games. It's completely irrelevant, only your MMR really matters. (And even though I know it is irrelevant, I still have this feeling that I should really play some games and get those 7 points before the season ends... Haha) exactly. | ||
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teer
United States189 Posts
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Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
On July 19 2011 06:35 teer wrote: I would love a placement challenge option. You get one placement challenge per season if you feel your worthy of being promoted. Since the details of the promotion system are hidden i can't really make any sugegsstions about how it would work though. Maybe something about maintaining a certain MMR that is the general average of the league about you or 2 leagues above. I dunno... That's... pretty much how it works already. If you're consistently performing above the MMR requirements of the next highest league, you get moved. | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
your rank is where blizzard puts you, it's their system, IT'S THEIR GAME, therefore talk to them! Look at ANY game with a ranking system, no ranking system is perfectly accurate of your skill level. One day you might be really good because your just playing well, the next day you might be playing awful, a number assigning your rank virtually means nothing unless you think it does. point is, it's pointless to talk about these kinds of things because we don't have control over the damn system, blizzard does! Just live with it and play and stop worrying about true rank because that shit doesn't matter and the only way to see your true rank is to play in tournaments. | ||
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NicoLoco
Norway159 Posts
On July 19 2011 07:06 emc wrote: these kinds of threads make my head hurt.... your rank is where blizzard puts you, it's their system, IT'S THEIR GAME, therefore talk to them! Look at ANY game with a ranking system, no ranking system is perfectly accurate of your skill level. One day you might be really good because your just playing well, the next day you might be playing awful, a number assigning your rank virtually means nothing unless you think it does. point is, it's pointless to talk about these kinds of things because we don't have control over the damn system, blizzard does! Just live with it and play and stop worrying about true rank because that shit doesn't matter and the only way to see your true rank is to play in tournaments. ....... /thread | ||
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