EPTCredibility of ladder rank - Page 4
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BlizzrdSlave
161 Posts
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Treva
United States533 Posts
On July 15 2011 15:31 Cuiu wrote: because a good game is a game that is played. and people play more when they dont have the fear to get demoted higher points higher rank? ahm i dont get your point here Öo The first thing to know is that masters league points are of the same tier no matter what masters division you are in. This is opposite of diamond where your points could be given a boost based on the tier of your diamond division. So basically the amount of points you have in your current masters division will be the same if you were put in any other masters division. Now with that being said a lot of people, me included, don't really care about what rank people are. Lets say you have 1500 points in masters and in your division you are ranked 25th. For this example lets say your division has a higher average points per player than other masters league meaning people in your division average more points than other divisions which is why you are ranked 25th. Now lets say you have a friend who is also 1500 points in masters but is in a division where the average points per player is lower than most other masters division. In his division he is ranked 12th since he has more points than most of the people in his division. See how rank could be kinda meaningless? Newly created divisions see this kinda thing the most where players with lower points are ranked higher than players of the same amount of points who are in a division that has been around longer/has better players. Basically if you want something to base your opponent's skill off of with just ladder tools then don't use rank, use ladder points in conjunction with bonus pool (1300 with 0 bp isn't the same as a 1300 with 250 bp) | ||
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eoLithic
Norway221 Posts
From a noob(high diamond) perspective, high masters for example resembles alot of skill for me. my 2 cents. | ||
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DusTerr
2520 Posts
Tldr, i look like "high diamond" but in reality i'm very low diamond in danger of demotion | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
On July 16 2011 04:27 eoLithic wrote: Masters and GM players get bashed all day every day, the people bashing them are usually people of similar of lower ranks and just use it to try and take something away from them and/or making themselves feel better about their own rank. From a noob(high diamond) perspective, high masters for example resembles alot of skill for me. my 2 cents. It's quite easy : people ranked the same as you are bad, people ranked better just farm games, and if you're Z, it's not your fault. God why can't some people accept that the ladder ranking is quite accurate for casual players like us. | ||
Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
On July 15 2011 15:28 Azzur wrote: Your rank while a little indicative of "skill", does not necessarily compare well against others. A better measure would be MMR to measure "skill". If you have played enough games, "adjusted points" (points with bonus pool removed) will correlate highly with MMR. If you're in master league, this "adjusted points" can be used to compare between the two different players. Yeah, this is basically right. Out of any given 100-player division, to break the top 8 or top 10, you just need to spend all your bonus pool. The vast majority of your points will come from your bonus pool (which means a minimum number of wins over time, which means a minimum number of games played over time, which means increasingly accurate skill assessment over time). So, if you were to say "I play a lot and I'm rank 10 Master and I play against other Master players and they're way better!" then you need to keep in mind that most of your points came from bonus pool and that as other players in your division spend their bonus pool, you will fall further and further behind in the rankings. Similarly, if you were to say "I keep getting matched against rank 10 Master players!", of course you do, because they're playing more often and that's how they got so many points in the first place. Your actual skill may not be in the top 10% of Master players, but that's irrelevant if 90% of Master players never (or almost never) play. The idea behind points and bonus pool is to encourage players to play games and remain active (and therefore produce accurate information about their relative skill). If everyone is spending their bonus pool, points become a lot more accurate as a skill measurement. If you're not spending all your bonus pool, then points and skill measurements are irrelevant because you're not playing anyway. | ||
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Puzzled
Canada6 Posts
On July 15 2011 15:29 holyhalo5 wrote: It's not a perfect system, but it's the best one possible. Could you think of a better way to "give people credible ranks", short of having Blizzard employees observe every game played and award points based on skill and not wins? How about one where I could actually tell if I was getting better or worse with my play skills? I already know how much I play or don't play, I don't need a ranking to tell me I'm active. Rank me properly against the entire userbase, let me see myself progress up the ranks as I actually get better, or see myself fall if I'm not doing it properly, and don't put me in a spot where whatever league I get put into I am automatically top 8 as long as I actually play. It makes the rankings very frustrating and pointless since it feels like you're nearly continuously stuck at the same place, with a random 'oh hey you're promoted' every few months, after which you're stuck at the exact same place of the next higher division for the next few months, until you get promoted again. It's also very frustrating for how slowly it responds to actual changes in skill (or rather, frustrating in the way its movement speed is slower than the speed at which I was gaining skill, in that it took about three months of near daily playing to see win rates of 21 out of 24 games move closer to the desired 50% ratio, which means I was playing an awful lot of games that weren't challenging enough to be really fun). At the same time I can't really tell if I'm getting better or worse, because the range of rankings of the group of people I'm playing against don't make any more sense than my own. So just stick me in an actual ranking against a group big enough to progress against, and don't pretend that activity equals skill or that having a hundred people in my 'league', half of whom don't even play any more, is somehow 'meaningful'. | ||
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rbkl
772 Posts
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Mvz
206 Posts
It's just to easy to get into Master league. You can just 1-2 base your way in there with 60 apm and no macro. The skill level is to mixed in there too. When I played on iCCup I felt proud when I was climbing in rank and I was happy to get something in return (my rank) for the effort I put into practice and get better at BW. When I got into Master league it was nothing special at all. I feel like all this league and rank bullshit should be removed and the real ladder should go after your MMR or just simply points without any cool and shiny league badges. Just my take on things. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
SC2 should have a slow decay (much slower than bonus pool accumulates for most players), proportional to the user's rank (higher rank, more decay), with all decayed points going into a recovery pool (works same as bonus pool). It makes no sense to use the current system, it's just so bad. On July 16 2011 04:44 rbkl wrote: IdrA is in masters, not gm -- just saying AFAIK (may be mistaken) it's because Blizzard mistakenly kicked him out because of a hacker impersonating him. Idra has been GM for a long time. On July 16 2011 04:09 BlizzrdSlave wrote: tl:dr. bonus pool allows people who play less to have higher ranks in their league, and MMR allows people to fight and win or lose to people from a league above or under them. Bonus pool allows people who play a bit to have higher ranks, but people who don't play regularly, to lose their rank almost completely (just kept in the same league). The system still rewards playing more, so it doesn't do a very effective job at canceling that out. On July 15 2011 16:25 brownthing wrote: This, exactly. I was ~2000 points on Iccup (borderline D/D+), and I've always been diamond/master since the beta. I know I haven't improved a drastic amount, and I've played ~500 total games of 1v1 since release. My point is that really, D-A rankings on iccup pretty much translate to master/grandmaster in sc2. No. The guy before you said 90% of the players in ICCup were D/D+. While that is debatable (I'd say more like 55% or something, with another 20-25% being D-/E), it is generally a high number. Masters rank is only top 2-3%, which makes it impossible for it to consist of the top 80% of players you claim it to be. The issue is that there are numerous huge differences when comparing ICCup to SC2 ladder: 1. Starcraft 2 is a rather new game, so players don't have as much skill at it, compared to people who've been playing SC1 for many years. 2. In my opinion the biggest reason, is that ICCup is a rather competitive, 3rd party server, where casuals don't tend to play as much. This creates a shift where the lower ranks are higher skill than the overall population. 3. Completely different reward, ranking, and match-making system That all said, I do think SC2 system could use improvement. Addition of the grandmaster and master leagues helped enormously though. | ||
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Sevenofnines
United States167 Posts
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Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
On July 16 2011 04:49 lol wrote: Yeah the ladder ranking system is not so great. On iCCup you kinda know how good a player is if he tell you his rank (no smurfs!! ^^) Now, Master league doesn't tell you jack shit about you. If someone is around B rank on iCCup you know that he can play Starcraft, if someone is A you know he is fucking sickballerfucker on the game. The same with Fish and Brain server in BW, the points and stats gives a good picture on how good you are. It's just to easy to get into Master league. You can just 1-2 base your way in there with 60 apm and no macro. The skill level is to mixed in there too. When I played on iCCup I felt proud when I was climbing in rank and I was happy to get something in return (my rank) for the effort I put into practice and get better at BW. When I got into Master league it was nothing special at all. I feel like all this league and rank bullshit should be removed and the real ladder should go after your MMR or just simply points without any cool and shiny league badges. Just my take on things. You just need to know the context. A Rank 1 Master player is there because he plays a lot and has skill. A Rank 100 Master player isn't going to play at all, he's just happy to have his Master icon and he'll see you in his Season 3 placement match. Things get cloudy in the middle where activity versus skill isn't clearly defined, for example a Rank 15 Master player will either have all his bonus pool spent and suck and be close to demotion, or he'll still have a decent amount of bonus pool remaining and be skilled. Adjusted points tell you the difference. The league lock period is the time when you start to see who rises to the top of the league and who is actually more skilled within your division, because they'll have more points and bonus pool doesn't accumulate anymore. | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
On July 16 2011 04:52 Xapti wrote: I don't see why SC2 uses a bonus pool inflation system, it's stupid. SC2 should have a slow decay (much slower than bonus pool accumulates for most players), proportional to the user's rank (higher rank, more decay), with all decayed points going into a recovery pool (works same as bonus pool). It makes no sense to use the current system, it's just so bad. AFAIK (may be mistaken) it's because Blizzard mistakenly kicked him out because of a hacker impersonating him. Idra has been GM for a long time. No it's because he went above 180 bonus pool which auto-ejects any GM player. | ||
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Lewan72
United States381 Posts
lol just got pwned XD | ||
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ranjutan
United States636 Posts
On July 16 2011 04:52 Xapti wrote: I don't see why SC2 uses a bonus pool inflation system, it's stupid. SC2 should have a slow decay (much slower than bonus pool accumulates for most players), proportional to the user's rank (higher rank, more decay), with all decayed points going into a recovery pool (works same as bonus pool). It makes no sense to use the current system, it's just so bad. AFAIK (may be mistaken) it's because Blizzard mistakenly kicked him out because of a hacker impersonating him. Idra has been GM for a long time. beaten by excalibur_z >< | ||
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Shadrak
United States490 Posts
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
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redwingxviii
United States101 Posts
apparently blizzard's ranking system makes them feel good, so... good for blizzard. | ||
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SxYSpAz
United States1451 Posts
or even better, the people with the shortest games play the other people with the shortest games, so they can cheese each other all to hell. It sucks playing people in high diamond that are clearly only good at one aspect of the game and do the same cheesey build every game, but i think diamond is probably the cheesiest (or most successful cheese) so i see it kinda as a rite of passage to get into masters... where i hope there's less early game all ins  | ||
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Eknoid4
United States902 Posts
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