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On July 14 2011 20:48 Deleuze wrote:
I don't see what use this is.
Let me get this straight, this is a program with a timer that just reminds you when to build a MULE, SCV etc is has no responsivity to what is going on in the game at hand nor the players actions/key strokes (pls correct me if I'm wrong)
Surely, this would really make you seceptible to harrasment and non-standard play - if you had your plan all set with your little reminders on when to build an SCV etc what would happen when your opponent does something completely unexpected that throws you off for thrity seconds making you deviate your plan?
Then your plan and reminders will all be out of sync and rendered completely pointless if not incredibly annoying?
I don't see how this would really help you improve - there are bulid order custom games out there which have mre practice applications (though are still themselves limited) - the best you can expect from this is that you will become reliant on a reminder of when to do stuff. I would impede the development of any 'game sense' which in the long run would be a disadvantage.
Think of it learning the piano with one of those keyboards where the key lights up for the next one you should play - yeah you will be able to play fine with that script running, but you would fail to develop any 'ear' for the music or tune nor would you develop a strong muscle memory when reading music....
My verdict is:
L2P
Is this cheating...? Well, using a third party program to (dubiously) enhance your skill/play at the game in a competitive context is bad.
I think only really really bad players would consider this an option....
Pls convince me otherwise - or at least attempt to do so :D
Wrong on lot's of counts.
Building SCV's is a fixed pattern, every 12 real (17 game) seconds, it doesn't matter what your game plan is, or if your being harassed, you still need to do those things.
You do not "fail to develop" a musical ear because you have some form of extra visual aid, that's just nonsense. timings can take a very long time to internalise, external timers massively speed up the time in which these can develop for an awful lot of people. Think metronomes.
You practice with one, and when it gets taken away you dont suddenly forget what a hand is for, or what a fret actually is. Same deal here, you increase the speed at which you learn a pattern, by having it externally reinforced. Then you take it away for competition time, and the timer remains with you, ingrained.
Also it's not a 3rd party program as it doesn't interact in any way with starcraft, it's an independent program.
My verdict?
He is Learning to play, in a potentially more efficient manner than most of the posters who just say "quit your job and ladder constantly or you wont improve"
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Blizzard has ban people for easier things, this would I deffinetly not use.
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wow you are obvious smart , dont be such an idiot , stop trying to make tools to make you good, and just get good, by putting that brainpower towards actually learning to play, not to making things that tell ppl how/when/what to play.. thats just a stupid brainless tool .. i mean cmon.. sc2 overlay . really?
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Canada13431 Posts
Personally, I think its cheating.
Its a program outside of the game, which shows clearly in game something you need to do. Its also affecting a very basic mechanic of SC2 to make workers. to have an overlay in game tell you make worker now is cheating, its abusing the fact you can have overlays and its terrible.
On July 14 2011 22:00 zergrushkekeke wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZYHkH.jpg)
Look at this picture and tell me what is right about it? An external timer is a timer its different than in internal bright red reminder in the game itself which others don't have.
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This is cheating, and you should not depend on an addon aand you should not struggle to be so bad at macro -.-
Edit:Such a waste of time for a stupid thing (sorry these things just makes me angry becuse its wrong & dumb)
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On July 14 2011 22:17 ZeromuS wrote:Personally, I think its cheating. Its a program outside of the game, which shows clearly in game something you need to do. Its also affecting a very basic mechanic of SC2 to make workers. to have an overlay in game tell you make worker now is cheating, its abusing the fact you can have overlays and its terrible. Look at this picture and tell me what is right about it? An external timer is a timer its different than in internal bright red reminder in the game itself which others don't have.
So if he changed the color or made it a beeper it would be okay?
What if he is deaf? can't use the beeper.. You think it would be okay if he had it on a second monitor?
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Well, if you place such high priority on just making scvs, then you should probably start playing more so you can recognize all those scenarios where making them is detrimental. It's way easier to just cycle through your buildings to check whether they are building stuff instead of getting your train of thought interrupted specifically to make workers.
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On July 14 2011 22:24 Zaphid wrote:
Well, if you place such high priority on just making scvs, then you should probably start playing more so you can recognize all those scenarios where making them is detrimental. It's way easier to just cycle through your buildings to check whether they are building stuff instead of getting your train of thought interrupted specifically to make workers.
and if he starts playing more WITH this timer, he potentially improves quicker than without. and it's great for him.
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Canada13431 Posts
On July 14 2011 22:22 Eleaven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 22:17 ZeromuS wrote:Personally, I think its cheating. Its a program outside of the game, which shows clearly in game something you need to do. Its also affecting a very basic mechanic of SC2 to make workers. to have an overlay in game tell you make worker now is cheating, its abusing the fact you can have overlays and its terrible. On July 14 2011 22:00 zergrushkekeke wrote: Look at this picture and tell me what is right about it? An external timer is a timer its different than in internal bright red reminder in the game itself which others don't have. So if he changed the color or made it a beeper it would be okay? What if he is deaf? can't use the beeper.. You think it would be okay if he had it on a second monitor?
Can I ask one question? Why are you responding to every single thread post that doesnt agree with you when you aren't the OP and are really just trying to incite some sort of forum fight?
We have differing opinions, cool you don't need to post every other post in this thread hitting F5 just to prove your point and pick a fight with everyone. Let it be, its not a discussion anymore its you just throwing out antagonistic responses to what almost everyone so far in the thread has had to say.
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On July 14 2011 21:07 Eleaven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 20:48 Deleuze wrote:
I don't see what use this is.
Let me get this straight, this is a program with a timer that just reminds you when to build a MULE, SCV etc is has no responsivity to what is going on in the game at hand nor the players actions/key strokes (pls correct me if I'm wrong)
Surely, this would really make you seceptible to harrasment and non-standard play - if you had your plan all set with your little reminders on when to build an SCV etc what would happen when your opponent does something completely unexpected that throws you off for thrity seconds making you deviate your plan?
Then your plan and reminders will all be out of sync and rendered completely pointless if not incredibly annoying?
I don't see how this would really help you improve - there are bulid order custom games out there which have mre practice applications (though are still themselves limited) - the best you can expect from this is that you will become reliant on a reminder of when to do stuff. I would impede the development of any 'game sense' which in the long run would be a disadvantage.
Think of it learning the piano with one of those keyboards where the key lights up for the next one you should play - yeah you will be able to play fine with that script running, but you would fail to develop any 'ear' for the music or tune nor would you develop a strong muscle memory when reading music....
My verdict is:
L2P
Is this cheating...? Well, using a third party program to (dubiously) enhance your skill/play at the game in a competitive context is bad.
I think only really really bad players would consider this an option....
Pls convince me otherwise - or at least attempt to do so :D Wrong on lot's of counts. Building SCV's is a fixed pattern, every 12 real (17 game) seconds, it doesn't matter what your game plan is, or if your being harassed, you still need to do those things. You do not "fail to develop" a musical ear because you have some form of extra visual aid, that's just nonsense. timings can take a very long time to internalise, external timers massively speed up the time in which these can develop for an awful lot of people. Think metronomes. You practice with one, and when it gets taken away you dont suddenly forget what a hand is for, or what a fret actually is. Same deal here, you increase the speed at which you learn a pattern, by having it externally reinforced. Then you take it away for competition time, and the timer remains with you, ingrained. Also it's not a 3rd party program as it doesn't interact in any way with starcraft, it's an independent program. My verdict? He is Learning to play, in a potentially more efficient manner than most of the posters who just say "quit your job and ladder constantly or you wont improve"
Hi Eleaven,
Yeah I stand corrected, I think I can accept that. Thanks for replying.
I guess my overall concern was that this would become a crutch, which whoever was using it would become dependant on - if it was taken away the users skill would drop.
I think what is most controversial about this is the visual ascept - if someone recorded an MP3 of them saying 'build SCV' every 12 seconds which they played in itunes during the game then I doubt there'll be as much concern (in fact - didn't someone actually do this?)
I wouldn't be happy with someone using this on ladder - but it is undetectable so I guess this is a moot point.
I am still a little perturbed by what Demonace34 suggests about it setting a precedent for more advanced forms of 'assistance'.
On reflection I guess this does have a place in practice - but there are still issues with possible dependancy, use in competitive play (i.e. ladder), and precedent forming.
I'm unsure whether these issues would out weigh the community endorsing this program though.
Thanks :D
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On July 14 2011 22:30 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 22:22 Eleaven wrote:On July 14 2011 22:17 ZeromuS wrote:Personally, I think its cheating. Its a program outside of the game, which shows clearly in game something you need to do. Its also affecting a very basic mechanic of SC2 to make workers. to have an overlay in game tell you make worker now is cheating, its abusing the fact you can have overlays and its terrible. On July 14 2011 22:00 zergrushkekeke wrote: Look at this picture and tell me what is right about it? An external timer is a timer its different than in internal bright red reminder in the game itself which others don't have. So if he changed the color or made it a beeper it would be okay? What if he is deaf? can't use the beeper.. You think it would be okay if he had it on a second monitor? Can I ask one question? Why are you responding to every single thread post that doesnt agree with you when you aren't the OP and are really just trying to incite some sort of forum fight? We have differing opinions, cool you don't need to post every other post in this thread hitting F5 just to prove your point and pick a fight with everyone. Let it be, its not a discussion anymore its you just throwing out antagonistic responses to what almost everyone so far in the thread has had to say.
It's a forum, for discussion, since most posts are the collaborative effort of 3-4 seconds of thinking I'm offering a counter point, and trying to get something more specific than "i dont like it" out of the posters
You called it terrible, but reasoned that it might be okay if it wasn't on the same monitor, i'm asking why you think that's any different in reality?
Maybe you don't like your opinion challenged by reason so instead decide to get personal? that's cool i can't stop you.
I'm not trying to incite a "fight" im trying to incite thought beyond "hrrrmmmmm ban!" using adjectives like "terrible" doesn't give a point more weight, give a real response, and you'll get a more considered reaction.
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On July 14 2011 22:33 Deleuze wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 21:07 Eleaven wrote:On July 14 2011 20:48 Deleuze wrote:
I don't see what use this is.
Let me get this straight, this is a program with a timer that just reminds you when to build a MULE, SCV etc is has no responsivity to what is going on in the game at hand nor the players actions/key strokes (pls correct me if I'm wrong)
Surely, this would really make you seceptible to harrasment and non-standard play - if you had your plan all set with your little reminders on when to build an SCV etc what would happen when your opponent does something completely unexpected that throws you off for thrity seconds making you deviate your plan?
Then your plan and reminders will all be out of sync and rendered completely pointless if not incredibly annoying?
I don't see how this would really help you improve - there are bulid order custom games out there which have mre practice applications (though are still themselves limited) - the best you can expect from this is that you will become reliant on a reminder of when to do stuff. I would impede the development of any 'game sense' which in the long run would be a disadvantage.
Think of it learning the piano with one of those keyboards where the key lights up for the next one you should play - yeah you will be able to play fine with that script running, but you would fail to develop any 'ear' for the music or tune nor would you develop a strong muscle memory when reading music....
My verdict is:
L2P
Is this cheating...? Well, using a third party program to (dubiously) enhance your skill/play at the game in a competitive context is bad.
I think only really really bad players would consider this an option....
Pls convince me otherwise - or at least attempt to do so :D Wrong on lot's of counts. Building SCV's is a fixed pattern, every 12 real (17 game) seconds, it doesn't matter what your game plan is, or if your being harassed, you still need to do those things. You do not "fail to develop" a musical ear because you have some form of extra visual aid, that's just nonsense. timings can take a very long time to internalise, external timers massively speed up the time in which these can develop for an awful lot of people. Think metronomes. You practice with one, and when it gets taken away you dont suddenly forget what a hand is for, or what a fret actually is. Same deal here, you increase the speed at which you learn a pattern, by having it externally reinforced. Then you take it away for competition time, and the timer remains with you, ingrained. Also it's not a 3rd party program as it doesn't interact in any way with starcraft, it's an independent program. My verdict? He is Learning to play, in a potentially more efficient manner than most of the posters who just say "quit your job and ladder constantly or you wont improve" Hi Eleaven, Yeah I stand corrected, I think I can accept that. Thanks for replying. I guess my overall concern was that this would become a crutch, which whoever was using it would become dependant on - if it was taken away the users skill would drop. I think what is most controversial about this is the visual ascept - if someone recorded an MP3 of them saying 'build SCV' every 12 seconds which they played in itunes during the game then I doubt there'll be as much concern (in fact - didn't someone actually do this?) I wouldn't be happy with someone using this on ladder - but it is undetectable so I guess this is a moot point. I am still a little perturbed by what Demonace34 suggests about it setting a precedent for more advanced forms of 'assistance'. On reflection I guess this does have a place in practice - but there are still issues with possible dependancy, use in competitive play (i.e. ladder), and precedent forming. I'm unsure whether these issues would out weigh the community endorsing this program though. Thanks :D
Appreciate the fact you read my response  .
I understand your concern about the crutch, and maybe that's true, but i think it would take a lot of usage for that to become an issue, compared to the gains that can be made in an hour with it.
The first time i used a timer, like a year ago to learn Z, i was shocked how many times it would beep when i was watching a battle, and didnt have the mechanical ability or brain power to pull away. That realisation itself made me a better player, and after a few hours i felt ready to play without it, and havent looked back since.
I hope this doesn't end up as a "gateway" to things that give additional benefits like maphacking (or some other assistance) etc, and i could see how it could be viewed this way. I don't want to go against someone using this on ladder either, but there's nothing that can be done about it, and maybe facing an opponent with better macro is good for me?
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Personal opinion here I think this is a TERRIBLE idea. It just helps reinforce that you need something else to help remind you about what you're supposed to do in game.
I think having sticky notes on your monitor to help remind you is prefectly legit because it doesn't pop up directly in your face saying to do something on a specific timer.
I think that having a stopwatch beside you that beeps every 30 seconds is a helpful tool to help but it isn't going to present its self right in front of your face saying what you need to do.
I just think all this... dependance on other programs to help you macro better in the long run is going to hurt your play more then help improve it because what happens when you're unable to do that anymore?
You're not going to have any internal timings you're going to be so reliant upon something else to tell you that you're going to realize you've not improved at all, you've just became dependent upon something else. Which is really just fucking retarded.
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Canada13431 Posts
On July 14 2011 22:37 Eleaven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 22:30 ZeromuS wrote:On July 14 2011 22:22 Eleaven wrote:On July 14 2011 22:17 ZeromuS wrote:Personally, I think its cheating. Its a program outside of the game, which shows clearly in game something you need to do. Its also affecting a very basic mechanic of SC2 to make workers. to have an overlay in game tell you make worker now is cheating, its abusing the fact you can have overlays and its terrible. On July 14 2011 22:00 zergrushkekeke wrote: Look at this picture and tell me what is right about it? An external timer is a timer its different than in internal bright red reminder in the game itself which others don't have. So if he changed the color or made it a beeper it would be okay? What if he is deaf? can't use the beeper.. You think it would be okay if he had it on a second monitor? Can I ask one question? Why are you responding to every single thread post that doesnt agree with you when you aren't the OP and are really just trying to incite some sort of forum fight? We have differing opinions, cool you don't need to post every other post in this thread hitting F5 just to prove your point and pick a fight with everyone. Let it be, its not a discussion anymore its you just throwing out antagonistic responses to what almost everyone so far in the thread has had to say. It's a forum, for discussion, since most posts are the collaborative effort of 3-4 seconds of thinking I'm offering a counter point, and trying to get something more specific than "i dont like it" out of the posters You called it terrible, but reasoned that it might be okay if it wasn't on the same monitor, i'm asking why you think that's any different in reality? Maybe you don't like your opinion challenged by reason so instead decide to get personal? that's cool i can't stop you. I'm not trying to incite a "fight" im trying to incite thought beyond "hrrrmmmmm ban!" using adjectives like "terrible" doesn't give a point more weight, give a real response, and you'll get a more considered reaction.
I think the problem is precisely having it in game. Its beyond being a virtual "metronome" if you will. It has moved to the realm of being a crutch, and being something blizzard did not intend to have in their game injected into their game. I do not mean injected as in through code but visually imposed.
I'm not trying to be personal, sorry if you feel that way but your counter points are really just "whats so wrong with a helper?" "Is it ok on another screen if so then whats wrong with it on the same screen? Same thing"
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On July 14 2011 19:37 Handfoot wrote:
I'm curious why it needs to ping 127.0.0.1.
127.0.0.1 is just your own network card. its not like its pinging some one that wants to see your ip adress in order to hack you. however i dont know why either because i havent seen the script my self.
edit: he uses it as a timer.
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Would people think this is ok for someone to use at MLG? If not, then it shouldn't be ok to use it on ladder. Both are competitive settings, and a lot of people put a lot of effort into rising in the ranks on Bnet. I have no problem with people doing this in unranked custom games, but using something like this in a ladder setting is clearly unintended by Blizzard and should be considered cheating.
Even though this obviously doesn't compare to maphacking, I'm pretty sure a lot of the arguments used in the thread (only doing it to help improve etc) could be used to justify that.
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Don't like the idea at all.This game is already easy as hell, and using something like that would only kill the pleasure of playing for me.
With nowaday's tendency of the gamers blizz will have to make an auto-casting on scvs in starcraft 3 to satisfy the community.
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this program is not designed to give you a advantage. it is designed to learn more efficient. i find every one who calls this a cheat very narrow sighted no offence
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EPT
