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On July 13 2011 08:08 MCDayC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 07:36 Zalfor wrote:
people gotta get better, that's all there is to it.
if the koreans are better, then they should take the money. No. That's not at all how any other sport on the planet works. It's a ridiculous fallacy, and may be the death of the foreigner scene because of it.
While you're at it lets limit the number of blacks in basketball on a professional level. There needs to be a whites only league so that the sport can continue to grow! Obviously letting the best players play isn't how any other sport on the planet works.
God damn the xenophobia just makes people go full retard doesn't it...
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On July 13 2011 08:03 sc2olorin wrote:
I've posted this before, but I'll say it again to try and hammer home the point.
Koreans (being the best players now) will bring in larger numbers of viewers for the major tournaments.
You say this as if it's a fact, when this is in fact VERY disputable. There are many many ppl who prefer to watch a slightly lower quality game between two players familiar to the foreign scene (say: Tyler vs Morrow) than a higher quallity game between two leading koreans (say: MC vs Bomber).
If in the next NASL no foreigners advance to the Ro8, would you still watch it? Maybe you would, but I believe on the whole less ppl will (even if the higher quality games compensate it).
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Frankly it baffles me that most foreign pros stopped playing the smaller tournaments.
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Unless we get rid of Koreans in the foreign scene it is going to die out. I'm not saying we ban them but we should make the same provisions as they have in the GSL to discourage them from coming. If you love to watch Koreans play good for you go watch the GSL but alot of people want to watch there own native players play and win. It's just like any other sport. If your an American naturally you are going to root for the American team. But if say in soccer America is consistently teamed up against like Italy or Mexico and get ROFL Stomped every single time, no matter how much you love soccer you are going to stop watching it. Sure the Koreans are better and deserve to win, but how in the world can you expect players to to rise to the occasion when Koreans have years of practice and a whole culture that endorses 8 hours a day gaming? We need to let the foreign scene grow before we can go up against them.
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The best players will go to where the best leagues (read most money) are. The players who are not as high caliber will play in the smaller tournaments. This is how sports competitions go. In the past Korea was where all the money and best players were at. Now there is good money outside of Korea. Naturally the players will follow. This is a great thing for us. If "foreigners" want to compete they just need to get off their collective asses and get serious. That means moving in to team houses with a team coach that facilitates a focused practice environment like any other sport.
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Work ethics and professionalism (and Tiger mom coaches). If you want to compete with the Koreans, you have to make the same sacrifices- simple as that.
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On July 13 2011 08:34 Sbrubbles wrote:
You say this as if it's a fact, when this is in fact VERY disputable. There are many many ppl who prefer to watch a slightly lower quality game between two players familiar to the foreign scene (say: Tyler vs Morrow) than a higher quallity game between two leading koreans (say: MC vs Bomber).
If there's a market for it then someone will make a tournament for average white dudes.
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On July 13 2011 08:36 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 08:34 Sbrubbles wrote:
You say this as if it's a fact, when this is in fact VERY disputable. There are many many ppl who prefer to watch a slightly lower quality game between two players familiar to the foreign scene (say: Tyler vs Morrow) than a higher quallity game between two leading koreans (say: MC vs Bomber).
If there's a market for it then someone will make a tournament for average white dudes.
IPL. Although the only reason people watch that is because of the casters imo.
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On July 13 2011 08:35 Snorkle wrote:
The best players will go to where the best leagues (read most money) are. The players who are not as high caliber will play in the smaller tournaments. This is how sports competitions go. In the past Korea was where all the money and best players were at. Now there is good money outside of Korea. Naturally the players will follow. This is a great thing for us. If "foreigners" want to compete they just need to get off their collective asses and get serious. That means moving in to team houses with a team coach that facilitates a focused practice environment like any other sport.
To get to the point of being on par with Korea it will take years for the esports scene in NA and EU to develop. But Koreans are winning every foreign tournament which means until then people will stop watching and we will never reach that point.
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On July 13 2011 08:35 RevLesMis wrote:
Unless we get rid of Koreans in the foreign scene it is going to die out. I'm not saying we ban them but we should make the same provisions as they have in the GSL to discourage them from coming. If you love to watch Koreans play good for you go watch the GSL but alot of people want to watch there own native players play and win. It's just like any other sport. If your an American naturally you are going to root for the American team. But if say in soccer America is consistently teamed up against like Italy or Mexico and get ROFL Stomped every single time, no matter how much you love soccer you are going to stop watching it. Sure the Koreans are better and deserve to win, but how in the world can you expect players to to rise to the occasion when Koreans have years of practice and a whole culture that endorses 8 hours a day gaming? We need to let the foreign scene grow before we can go up against them.
I'm American and I hate watching American Football (soccer). It's just 2nd rate compared to European teams/leagues (I follow Bundesliga football), and the same exact thing will happen if you separate the competition. Your argument is completely misguided. The foreign scene wouldn't grow if you got rid of the Koreans - it would die. It will make the foreign scene fall behind the Korean one that much quicker and the foreign scene will soon go the way of the BW foreign scene - it'll become practically nonexistent because the games are so sub-par. The only way for foreigners to catch Koreans in terms of skill is to play against them - you can't get up to that level if you don't have anyone close to that level to practice with, so separating the scenes would do nothing except hurt foreigners.
You say this as if it's a fact, when this is in fact VERY disputable. There are many many ppl who prefer to watch a slightly lower quality game between two players familiar to the foreign scene (say: Tyler vs Morrow) than a higher quallity game between two leading koreans (say: MC vs Bomber).
If in the next NASL no foreigners advance to the Ro8, would you still watch it? Maybe you would, but I believe on the whole less ppl will (even if the higher quality games compensate it).
You have absolutely zero evidence to support this. Every western tournament that has had an all Korean finals (most notably NASL and MLG) has still had a massive amount of viewers.
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On July 13 2011 08:34 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 08:03 sc2olorin wrote:
I've posted this before, but I'll say it again to try and hammer home the point.
Koreans (being the best players now) will bring in larger numbers of viewers for the major tournaments.
You say this as if it's a fact, when this is in fact VERY disputable. There are many many ppl who prefer to watch a slightly lower quality game between two players familiar to the foreign scene (say: Tyler vs Morrow) than a higher quallity game between two leading koreans (say: MC vs Bomber). If in the next NASL no foreigners advance to the Ro8, would you still watch it? Maybe you would, but I believe on the whole less ppl will (even if the higher quality games compensate it).
Just compare NASL viewership (I saw 80K+ during the final between two Koreans) to IPL and you have your answer on who people want to watch...
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maybe foreign pros need to organize and actually practice if they want to stay on korea's level, naniwa knows it, hes going to korea for the practice and experience not because he expects to win a code s
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If Koreans get banned from American tournaments it won't be long until they figure out they can't beat the Europeans either.
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On July 13 2011 08:34 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 08:03 sc2olorin wrote:
I've posted this before, but I'll say it again to try and hammer home the point.
Koreans (being the best players now) will bring in larger numbers of viewers for the major tournaments.
You say this as if it's a fact, when this is in fact VERY disputable. There are many many ppl who prefer to watch a slightly lower quality game between two players familiar to the foreign scene (say: Tyler vs Morrow) than a higher quallity game between two leading koreans (say: MC vs Bomber). If in the next NASL no foreigners advance to the Ro8, would you still watch it? Maybe you would, but I believe on the whole less ppl will (even if the higher quality games compensate it).
Although I do agree with you that there are many many people who would perfer to watch foreigner versus foreigner I'd say its pretty safe assumption that there's an even BIGGER amount of people that would perfer Morrow vs Bomber over either of the two scenarios you provided.
Also its not a question of no foreigners its a question of which Koreans. If its big names that I'm a fan of MC/Zenio/Boxer/MKP/July/ect then having no foreigners wouldnt deter me from watching it. Although I do admit that I'd be even more excited if it was Thorzain/MC/Huk/MKP/Morrow/Julyect I would still watch it either way.
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lols. It's a tournament for a reason, the best person wins, that's all.
If Koreans are dominant that means they're better, that's all. All these Koreans are taking our moneys threads are getting really old and lame. If foreigners don't want their cashes taken by Koreans, they need to start practising like it's an actual job, not any of this 2-3 hours a day shit 
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On July 13 2011 08:44 rickybobby wrote:
maybe foreign pros need to organize and actually practice if they want to stay on korea's level, naniwa knows it, hes going to korea for the practice and experience not because he expects to win a code s
Well, he has ambition. I think he actually expects to win a code S, as does Huk. That is the difference between those players and players like Idra. Eye of the tiger.
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If foreigners play harder, practice harder, and humble themselves as players who really do need to learn the game more, they'll barely be reaching the surface of Korean pro mentality. Koreans, in general, are always practicing harder than everyone else even if they don't get rewarded for it. Successful players have always been modest and do not think highly of themselves, which allow them to see the perspective that they still have room to improve. From "my" observations, foreigners aren't open minded enough to get "good" like koreans. They do what they want, when they want, however they want.
Foreigners, in general, don't have the same mentality, therefore, will not work harder than they get rewarded for. But we can't blame the players, we've to indicate that the source of this problem is our societies. If NA as a country cannot support the scene as well as KR financially and mentally, the players in NA will of course fall behind. Go ask your neighbor if they "like" Starcraft, it's highly unusual that they'll respond positively, or, even know what Starcraft is. Go to Korea and ask a random person what Starcraft is, and they'll give you a whole essay on it. (exaggerated, but you get the point). It's big, it means something to the society, so of course the representatives of that society play the game professionally with much more emphasis and importance.
There are some outstanding foreigners, and I am not saying all foreigners don't have the mentality to be good, but clearly Koreans in general have always been on another level and still are. For foreigners to get beyond this "slim picking" of successful players, they have to change their mentality and practice methods.
With regards to the prize pool, wtf? Who cares if Koreans are taking all the gold. The prizes aren't even that big yet. Of course to one individual, 15k might be a lot. 80k might be a lot. But what is that to the rest of the world? Maybe 80k isn't enough to motivate NA players to play better. Up the prize pool to a million. Then maybe it'll cause a shift in the way foreigners fight for da monaayyy and we'll start seeing a shift in Korean dominance.
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On July 13 2011 08:36 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 08:34 Sbrubbles wrote:
You say this as if it's a fact, when this is in fact VERY disputable. There are many many ppl who prefer to watch a slightly lower quality game between two players familiar to the foreign scene (say: Tyler vs Morrow) than a higher quallity game between two leading koreans (say: MC vs Bomber).
If there's a market for it then someone will make a tournament for average white dudes.
Basically this. It's not like MLG/NASL allowing Koreans in and consequently Koreans dominating those leagues is stopping ANYONE from creating a NA/EU only tourney. If people really want to watch a segregated tournament, then there's a lucrative opportunity there for any entrepreneur interested.
But coming back to the MLG/NASL/TSL debate: In general the only complainers I've been seeing are C/D Class or delusional foreigners thinking that they are C/D Class level complaining about lack of opportunity because they aren't willing to put the time and organization into a proper practice regimen. That's not saying they are making the wrong choice. Simply from an ROI perspective, it's not worth it for them but they want to see if they can still have a shot at winning a major tournament with that choice.
(Note on classes, I see MC/Nestea as only two S Class. Puma/HuK/DRG would be A class. Naniwa/Zenio/Ryung would be B class. BoxeR/IdrA/Alicia would be C Class. sLush/Rainbow/incontrol would be D class.) ** Players listed are not necessarily people that are complaining. Just examples in my constantly changing list on current progamers.
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On July 13 2011 08:47 Emperor_Earth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 08:36 Yaotzin wrote:On July 13 2011 08:34 Sbrubbles wrote:
You say this as if it's a fact, when this is in fact VERY disputable. There are many many ppl who prefer to watch a slightly lower quality game between two players familiar to the foreign scene (say: Tyler vs Morrow) than a higher quallity game between two leading koreans (say: MC vs Bomber).
If there's a market for it then someone will make a tournament for average white dudes. Basically this. It's not like MLG/NASL allowing Koreans in and consequently Koreans dominating those leagues is stopping ANYONE from creating a NA/EU only tourney. If people really want to watch a segregated tournament, then there's a lucrative opportunity there for any entrepreneur interested.
Or you know, a major corporation, like IGN?
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Americans would need to ban Europeans as well, if that were the case. I mean honestly, who thought that an American would win an MLG event after Naniwa trounced everyone in the tournament? And then they made a deal with Koreans?! GG Americans are toast at that event now, more token characters than anything.
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EPT
