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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On July 13 2011 08:02 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 07:57 Gigaudas wrote:On July 13 2011 07:56 lunchforthesky wrote:
Sport, including E-Sports should be a global competition. We don't ban Australians from playing cricket, Brazilians from football or Americans from Golf, why would we ban Koreans from Starcraft? We don't let Manchester United send their B-team around the world to harvest prize money from local cups. A better comparison would be tennis, where Nadal, Federer, the Williams sisters etc harvest all the prize money for themselves. Nobody ever says to have less foreigners in Wimbledon in spite of the fact that no native has won the thing in forever.
Yes, but in Tennis the number 10 to 100 seed still are able to make a living and train just as hard as the number 1 to 9 seed. They still would have enough sponsorship and money to survive. With SC2, we may reach a point were the Koreans come to all foreign tournaments, win them all, and there are no foreign players with enough money to make them playing pro possible. There should be competition between Koreans and foreigners, for sure, but there still needs to be enough money for foreign players to be able to sustain themselves. There needs to be a balance between the GSLs (fully Koreans), the MLGs (Some Korean, some not) and the IPLs (Non Korean) in order to keep our scene with enough money to be sustainable.
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On July 13 2011 08:12 lunchforthesky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 08:08 oskarla wrote:On July 13 2011 08:03 blizzind wrote:
you won't see a foreigner do anything until they start living in korea and train with korean teams. such as huk. naniwa is going to korea soon. right now they are the only hope.
Is that why Naniwa, Thorzain and Sen already are able to beat the Koreans fairly consistently without practicing with them yet. They are obviously putting the effort in and as long as you do that it doesn't really matter where you live. None of those players beat Koreans consistantly. Thorzain beat Fruit Dealer (who doesn't beat Fruitdealer these days) and MC once. He's lost to MC twice since then, as well as TSL Revival in the NASL. Sen lost to Boxer, MC twice and July at Dreamhack (he won vs July and Zenio) Naniwa lost to MC and Losira at MLG. He beat MC at Homestory and Moon at MLG but lost to Moon at Dreamhack. All three have a negative win/loss ratio versus Koreans.
To be fair, not even the best Koreans beat Koreans consistently.
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On July 13 2011 08:14 oskarla wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 08:12 lunchforthesky wrote:On July 13 2011 08:08 oskarla wrote:On July 13 2011 08:03 blizzind wrote:
you won't see a foreigner do anything until they start living in korea and train with korean teams. such as huk. naniwa is going to korea soon. right now they are the only hope.
Is that why Naniwa, Thorzain and Sen already are able to beat the Koreans fairly consistently without practicing with them yet. They are obviously putting the effort in and as long as you do that it doesn't really matter where you live. None of those players beat Koreans consistantly. Thorzain beat Fruit Dealer (who doesn't beat Fruitdealer these days) and MC once. He's lost to MC twice since then, as well as TSL Revival in the NASL. Sen lost to Boxer, MC twice and July at Dreamhack (he won vs July and Zenio) Naniwa lost to MC and Losira at MLG. He beat MC at Homestory and Moon at MLG but lost to Moon at Dreamhack. All three have a negative win/loss ratio versus Koreans. To be fair, not even the best Koreans beat Koreans consistently.
Except for Nestea obviously.
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On July 13 2011 08:17 lunchforthesky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 08:14 oskarla wrote:On July 13 2011 08:12 lunchforthesky wrote:On July 13 2011 08:08 oskarla wrote:On July 13 2011 08:03 blizzind wrote:
you won't see a foreigner do anything until they start living in korea and train with korean teams. such as huk. naniwa is going to korea soon. right now they are the only hope.
Is that why Naniwa, Thorzain and Sen already are able to beat the Koreans fairly consistently without practicing with them yet. They are obviously putting the effort in and as long as you do that it doesn't really matter where you live. None of those players beat Koreans consistantly. Thorzain beat Fruit Dealer (who doesn't beat Fruitdealer these days) and MC once. He's lost to MC twice since then, as well as TSL Revival in the NASL. Sen lost to Boxer, MC twice and July at Dreamhack (he won vs July and Zenio) Naniwa lost to MC and Losira at MLG. He beat MC at Homestory and Moon at MLG but lost to Moon at Dreamhack. All three have a negative win/loss ratio versus Koreans. To be fair, not even the best Koreans beat Koreans consistently. Except for Nestea obviously.
Obviously.
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It's not as one sided as in BW, yet. But oh boy, just wait till their is even more korean teams out there hunting success. Just wait till even more active korean players from BW wants some of that money "failures" like IrOn (MC) and Zergbong (NesTea) have won.
I can honestly not see how players outside of Korea will manage to compete with players practicing in a korean team house in a few years how the situation is like now. They have free housing, no bills to pay, no food to pay. All they have to do is spending their time on practice. They have the best ladder, they have big teams with alot of different brains to talk about anything related to Starcraft eye to an eye. And all their talents are from the same country and speak the same native language.
Many "foreigner" teams are spread out all over the world, don't have english as native language and don't practice as much because I guess most of the players have to have some kind of work to pay rent and food. Practicing over the internet and talking strats and stuff with your teammates over skype is nothing compared to how koreans have it.
Would be awesome if bigger organisations could set up some sort of "HQ" or house where the Starcraft 2 teams can gather and just practice full time without worring about money for food and rent.
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United States596 Posts
They just gotta change their mindset. No more of this "I'll be happy if I win one map" bullshit. You call yourselves competitors? you should go into every single match against anyone on the planet expecting to 4-0 them. Foreigners will never be successful until they stop expecting to fail. Best example? IdrA. Everyone who watches IdrA play knows he can beat anyone on the planet handily, but when he matches up against a Korean he shuts it down and says I can't (see his first game against MMA and MLG). While the Koreans go into games saying I can.
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On July 13 2011 08:14 MCDayC wrote:
Yes, but in Tennis the number 10 to 100 seed still are able to make a living and train just as hard as the number 1 to 9 seed. They still would have enough sponsorship and money to survive.
Yes, because there is far more money in tennis. The top guns still make by FAR the most money (like SC2).
With SC2, we may reach a point were the Koreans come to all foreign tournaments, win them all, and there are no foreign players with enough money to make them playing pro possible. There should be competition between Koreans and foreigners, for sure, but there still needs to be enough money for foreign players to be able to sustain themselves.
So bad players should make more money than good players, simply because they aren't Korean?
There needs to be a balance between the GSLs (fully Koreans), the MLGs (Some Korean, some not) and the IPLs (Non Korean) in order to keep our scene with enough money to be sustainable.
Well that's up to the organisation in question. If MLG wants to showcase the best games they'll allow as many Koreans in as they can because they're the best.
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I think a lot of you missed my point. It's not about what foreign players "should" do, but rather what will the future hold for the foreign scene under massive Korean domination.
Personally, I didn't really like MLG until the Koreans showed up. Before the Koreans, the games weren't worth watching compared to the GSL. With the Koreans, I was excited to watch foreigners play against them to see how they match up.
So it may be arguable that the scene and the tournaments will keep on going with similar ratings.
However, what will happen to the foreign player pool? Will they keep on playing for a few hundred dollars here and there? Will they keep on showing up, knowing that Korean talents are massive favored and their chance to win is 5-10%?
The other big aspect is the sponsors. Let's say you win Miss USA. In addition to the crown and the money, Miss USA has other promotional duties to the organization. Sponsors want to use the fame of the players to promote their products, etc etc. But the Korean players don't speak English (besides MC in a limited fashion). There will be no Idra-esque Kingston's Game Replay Analysis or anything like that. So you're a US company, you put up $50,000. Guy wins, takes a check home to Korea, the end. Will the corporate honchos consider that money well-spent?
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On July 13 2011 08:09 lunchforthesky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 08:03 godemperor wrote:On July 13 2011 07:57 Gigaudas wrote:On July 13 2011 07:56 lunchforthesky wrote:
Sport, including E-Sports should be a global competition. We don't ban Australians from playing cricket, Brazilians from football or Americans from Golf, why would we ban Koreans from Starcraft? We don't let Manchester United send their B-team around the world to harvest prize money from local cups. Flaw with that arguement is that in most sports, the best teams gets paid the most and the best league gets the most money. (Barce and Real in La Liga, the 2 milans in serie A and Man U in EPL) But its only in the SC2 scene that there is insufficient money in korea for all the players, and are forced to go to foreign tournaments. Team like Man U don't go "fuck, there's no money in the champion league, lets play some more friendlies in the USA with our B-team. Granted playing friendly in the USA does provide money in terms of merchandising but it is usually small compared to their other sources of income. The Brazil in Football is actually a good comparison to Korea in Sc2. Both harbour a massive proportion of the worlds talent but both don't generate that much money on a domestic level (at least in comparison to their talent pool). In football Brazilians play in every country in the world getting rich, and in Sc2 Koreans enter foreign tournaments. In both instances healthy competition and the advancement of the sport in promoted and the only people harmed are those lesser skilled, which is the entire point of competitive sport in the first place.
The point is, the koreans are representing themselves, not a team that resides is some foreign country. In soccer ppl always root for the team and not the player (with one or two exceptions of some REALLY star players, but even so).
I may be an exception here on TL, but I like to watch MLG/Dreamhack to see the ppl involved in our starcraft community duking it out, not them getting stomped by koreans.
Maybe if tournaments favored a TEAM format, then we'd see something like Liquid[Bomber] popping around and I'd have no problem in cheering for him  .
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On July 13 2011 08:14 MCDayC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 08:02 Yaotzin wrote:On July 13 2011 07:57 Gigaudas wrote:On July 13 2011 07:56 lunchforthesky wrote:
Sport, including E-Sports should be a global competition. We don't ban Australians from playing cricket, Brazilians from football or Americans from Golf, why would we ban Koreans from Starcraft? We don't let Manchester United send their B-team around the world to harvest prize money from local cups. A better comparison would be tennis, where Nadal, Federer, the Williams sisters etc harvest all the prize money for themselves. Nobody ever says to have less foreigners in Wimbledon in spite of the fact that no native has won the thing in forever. Yes, but in Tennis the number 10 to 100 seed still are able to make a living and train just as hard as the number 1 to 9 seed. They still would have enough sponsorship and money to survive. With SC2, we may reach a point were the Koreans come to all foreign tournaments, win them all, and there are no foreign players with enough money to make them playing pro possible. There should be competition between Koreans and foreigners, for sure, but there still needs to be enough money for foreign players to be able to sustain themselves. There needs to be a balance between the GSLs (fully Koreans), the MLGs (Some Korean, some not) and the IPLs (Non Korean) in order to keep our scene with enough money to be sustainable.
thats a dumb mentality. thats like saying dont invite non british people to wimbledon just so the next 2-3 best british players after murray get money.
if the foreigners arent willing to put the time and practice in then they dont deserve the money its as simple as that.
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On July 13 2011 08:02 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 07:57 Gigaudas wrote:On July 13 2011 07:56 lunchforthesky wrote:
Sport, including E-Sports should be a global competition. We don't ban Australians from playing cricket, Brazilians from football or Americans from Golf, why would we ban Koreans from Starcraft? We don't let Manchester United send their B-team around the world to harvest prize money from local cups. A better comparison would be tennis, where Nadal, Federer, the Williams sisters etc harvest all the prize money for themselves. Nobody ever says to have less foreigners in Wimbledon in spite of the fact that no native has won the thing in forever.
It is a somewhat fair comparison. But tennis is an odd sport in that regard, I think. It is more a marketing succes than an interest in the sport that drives it, imho. By and large it is a world travelling circus where only the very top level tournaments generate the sizeable interest from the public. The rest of the time most of the viewers don't give two shits about tennis as a sport. It is more or less detached from national/regional aspects. (But even then, it is not dominated by one nationality.)
A more applicable comparison would be golf. What would happen if the players from the European tour went on the US tour and dominated - or more likely vice versa?
Not anything that would benefit golf as a whole, I suspect.
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On July 13 2011 08:19 RmoteCntrld wrote:
They just gotta change their mindset. No more of this "I'll be happy if I win one map" bullshit. You call yourselves competitors? you should go into every single match against anyone on the planet expecting to 4-0 them. Foreigners will never be successful until they stop expecting to fail. Best example? IdrA. Everyone who watches IdrA play knows he can beat anyone on the planet handily, but when he matches up against a Korean he shuts it down and says I can't (see his first game against MMA and MLG). While the Koreans go into games saying I can.
I agree with you on the mindset thing but Idra is just seriously overrated man, that statement is just not true. The fact that he's losing is not because his mindset going into the games are bad it's because he lacks motivation and does not practice enough. He was 100% certain he was going to 2-0 Cruncher in the TSL but lost because he played worse than Cruncher.
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On July 13 2011 08:22 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 08:09 lunchforthesky wrote:On July 13 2011 08:03 godemperor wrote:On July 13 2011 07:57 Gigaudas wrote:On July 13 2011 07:56 lunchforthesky wrote:
Sport, including E-Sports should be a global competition. We don't ban Australians from playing cricket, Brazilians from football or Americans from Golf, why would we ban Koreans from Starcraft? We don't let Manchester United send their B-team around the world to harvest prize money from local cups. Flaw with that arguement is that in most sports, the best teams gets paid the most and the best league gets the most money. (Barce and Real in La Liga, the 2 milans in serie A and Man U in EPL) But its only in the SC2 scene that there is insufficient money in korea for all the players, and are forced to go to foreign tournaments. Team like Man U don't go "fuck, there's no money in the champion league, lets play some more friendlies in the USA with our B-team. Granted playing friendly in the USA does provide money in terms of merchandising but it is usually small compared to their other sources of income. The Brazil in Football is actually a good comparison to Korea in Sc2. Both harbour a massive proportion of the worlds talent but both don't generate that much money on a domestic level (at least in comparison to their talent pool). In football Brazilians play in every country in the world getting rich, and in Sc2 Koreans enter foreign tournaments. In both instances healthy competition and the advancement of the sport in promoted and the only people harmed are those lesser skilled, which is the entire point of competitive sport in the first place. The point is, the koreans are representing themselves, not a team that resides is some foreign country. In soccer ppl always root for the team and not the player (with one or two exceptions of some REALLY star players, but even so). I may be an exception here on TL, but I like to watch MLG/Dreamhack to see the ppl involved in our starcraft community duking it out, not them getting stomped by koreans. Maybe if tournaments favored a TEAM format, then we'd see something like Liquid[Bomber] popping around and I'd have no problem in cheering for him .
Then you're in a huge minority. Far, far more people want to see top Koreans than random white guys.
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United States596 Posts
On July 13 2011 08:25 oskarla wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 08:19 RmoteCntrld wrote:
They just gotta change their mindset. No more of this "I'll be happy if I win one map" bullshit. You call yourselves competitors? you should go into every single match against anyone on the planet expecting to 4-0 them. Foreigners will never be successful until they stop expecting to fail. Best example? IdrA. Everyone who watches IdrA play knows he can beat anyone on the planet handily, but when he matches up against a Korean he shuts it down and says I can't (see his first game against MMA and MLG). While the Koreans go into games saying I can. I agree with you on the mindset thing but Idra is just seriously overrated man, that statement is just not true. The fact that he's losing is not because his mindset going into the games are bad it's because he lacks motivation and does not practice enough. He was 100% certain he was going to 2-0 Cruncher in the TSL but lost because he played worse than Cruncher.
Not practicing isn't being overrated... not practicing and not being motivated is having a shit mindset.
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How many western progamers made any significant amount of money from tournament earnings until now? Most foreigner tournaments consistently had the same few people at the top. 2-3 names in NA, 4-5 names in EU and that's it. The rest of the hundreds of competitors weren't taking home anything anyway. The only ones getting hurt by the Koreans, will be those few at the top who won everything because they didn't have decent competition. Well, now they do, so tough luck...
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On July 13 2011 08:28 RmoteCntrld wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 08:25 oskarla wrote:On July 13 2011 08:19 RmoteCntrld wrote:
They just gotta change their mindset. No more of this "I'll be happy if I win one map" bullshit. You call yourselves competitors? you should go into every single match against anyone on the planet expecting to 4-0 them. Foreigners will never be successful until they stop expecting to fail. Best example? IdrA. Everyone who watches IdrA play knows he can beat anyone on the planet handily, but when he matches up against a Korean he shuts it down and says I can't (see his first game against MMA and MLG). While the Koreans go into games saying I can. I agree with you on the mindset thing but Idra is just seriously overrated man, that statement is just not true. The fact that he's losing is not because his mindset going into the games are bad it's because he lacks motivation and does not practice enough. He was 100% certain he was going to 2-0 Cruncher in the TSL but lost because he played worse than Cruncher. Not practicing isn't being overrated... not practicing and not being motivated is having a shit mindset.
Do you know that IdrA's winrate after he left Korea against Korean? I don't know exact numbers but it was around 4-22. That's a complete joke. IdrA is overrated big time but he is still nonetheless best NA zerg.
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On July 13 2011 08:23 VenerableSpace wrote:
if the foreigners arent willing to put the time and practice in then they dont deserve the money its as simple as that.
Thats a fair opinion. Now take the next step and join the rest of us in the discussion that this thread is actually about:
What will be the consequence of that in regards to the foreign SC2 scene? In terms of money available, interest, growth and so on.
Any thoughts on that?
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I want to see the best in the world play, not some rank #200 guys just because their white, as such I'll put my money into the pockets of tournaments hosting the best players and at the end of the day you must remember all these sc2 organizations are for profit businesses.
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On July 13 2011 08:28 RmoteCntrld wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 08:25 oskarla wrote:On July 13 2011 08:19 RmoteCntrld wrote:
They just gotta change their mindset. No more of this "I'll be happy if I win one map" bullshit. You call yourselves competitors? you should go into every single match against anyone on the planet expecting to 4-0 them. Foreigners will never be successful until they stop expecting to fail. Best example? IdrA. Everyone who watches IdrA play knows he can beat anyone on the planet handily, but when he matches up against a Korean he shuts it down and says I can't (see his first game against MMA and MLG). While the Koreans go into games saying I can. I agree with you on the mindset thing but Idra is just seriously overrated man, that statement is just not true. The fact that he's losing is not because his mindset going into the games are bad it's because he lacks motivation and does not practice enough. He was 100% certain he was going to 2-0 Cruncher in the TSL but lost because he played worse than Cruncher. Not practicing isn't being overrated... not practicing and not being motivated is having a shit mindset.
Well, since he doesn't practice, he's bad. I could make the argument that Drewbie would win GSL if he just had a better mindset and practiced 14 hours a day. There are different kind of people, some are lazier than others.
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No one is entitled to success just because of location.
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EPT
