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On July 13 2011 11:21 Sandro wrote:
You know what I dislike? How up and coming foreigner players have to compete with the established ones and the koreans. We used to have little tourneys for them to play in like the TL open but now even the koreans are signing up in droves for that. It doesnt help that nearly every big western tournament is invite only or 90% or more invites which means less pros who havent proven themselves get a chance to play in for more exposure/money/sponsorships and what not.
There are multiple such tournaments nearly every day. Just look at the sidebar once in a while...
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I can't speak for Europe, but I can't feel sorry for North American Pros when they don't play in the smaller tournaments available. Take the Zotac Cups, for example. The only Pro Players I generally see there are the various team complexity members, Fenix, and Goody (and Spades if you count him). Drewbie and slush have something like two appearances each, and that is it. No Kiwikaki, no Select, no Idra, no Axslav, no InControl, none of them. And if they aren't willing to go for what are essentially local cups, why would I expect them to join strictly NA cups?
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On July 13 2011 11:52 SiguR wrote:
You guys are all kind of missing the point. The problem is going to be the barriers to entry for new players. If you can't compete without living in a team house you usually can't afford to quit your job to start playing.
This isn't about giving white people a handicap to compete. This is about making sure we don't shoot ourselves in the foot as our scene develops (which is what i think the whole catz thing was about, but i'm not sure and shouldn't try to speak for him).
I don't have a solution, but just saying "well foreigners need to just play better' is incredibly ignorant towards a number of the problems all rolled up into the issue.
You don't have to win a $50,000 tournament to get signed to a team.
There are plenty of online tournaments without koreans with prizepools of up to $5000
Win small tournaments, get noticed by teams, sign to team, enter team house, get team salary, ???, profit.
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Do we really need another one of these threads?
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Frankly I don't care how the foreign pros do if they're not willing to do what it takes to be as good as the Koreans.
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This is a competition not welfare. If foreigners don't want to work hard for their money, they shouldn't get it.
A lot of the hard working foreigners can compete with Koreans, even when not living in Korea. Naniwa beat MC in HSC3 afterall. Sure the lazy foreigners that practice 3 hours a day can't beat Koreans, but they shouldn't, nor do they deserve big prizes for 3 hours a day of work.
Also, many of the better foreigners can just get trained in Korea then go home and as long as they keep up the hard work, they can retain the skills and training efficiency they learned in Korea. Idra was doing well even against Koreans after moving back to the US, but he's gotten lazy with practice so he's no longer doing well.
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"lazy" foreigners that practice "3 hours" a day... good one, theres more to life then games, and unless uare narrow sighted u are going to be no where in a few years if u dont take care of your life responsiblities, especaily in westernized countries which takes "hours" of time
Silly zzoram
User was warned for this post
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On July 13 2011 12:53 bdictkam wrote:
"lazy" foreigners that practice "3 hours" a day... good one, theres more to life then games, and unless uare narrow sighted u are going to be no where in a few years if u dont take care of your life responsiblities, especaily in westernized countries which takes "hours" of time
Silly zzoram
Maybe you missed the perspective of this entire thread, which is succeeding at Starcraft II in an e-sports environment. The primary goal being to succeed in this environment, not another one and therefor yes, more than 3 hours a day is required.
Clearly you are right, that there is more to life than games if ie I play this as a hobby and not as what I would one day hope to be a job, in which case yes, I better focus on my other responsibilities before I dedicate more than 3 hours a day to my hobby.
But we aren't talking about getting a scholar ship for football or any other sport while attempting to be semi-pro at Starcraft, we're talking about Starcraft as the job above the others.
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Everyone started at the same time so its not that the Koreans had an advantage of playing starcraft 2 long before anyone else. Its also not a matter of practice I mean I can play other silver players all day long and never beat top pros. You have to practice with the other top tier pro players and right now that is no one on the NA servers so Koreans will just continually get better. I think a big part of why Koreans took the skill lead is because they were so good from Brood War that they just have a mindset that allowed the metagame on the Korean server to change faster and become stronger then the NA servers.
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On July 13 2011 12:53 bdictkam wrote:
"lazy" foreigners that practice "3 hours" a day... good one, theres more to life then games, and unless uare narrow sighted u are going to be no where in a few years if u dont take care of your life responsiblities, especaily in westernized countries which takes "hours" of time
Silly zzoram
We are talking about pro foreigners, not some random dudes that not taking the game seriously.
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Most of the weekly tournaments like Zotac, Go4SC2 are still void of any Korean pros. Hell, even IPL qualifiers didn't allow any Koreans to participate.
You make it sound like there is absolutely no money to be made in NA, when in fact there is lots.
Afaik, the only online tournaments Korean Pros have participated in are TL Opens and FXO events. [Someone can correct me if I'm wrong on this]
Stop making it sound like Koreans are everywhere. It only seems that way because they've only really been participating in high profile foreigner events.
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Foreigners still have access to more low-level tournaments than koreans though. Yet this doesn't stop koreans from being motivated and destroying foreigners. The problem isn't that there isn't enough monetary motivation, its that foreigners don't work hard enough.
Look at Idra. Former BW B-teamer, used to practicing 12 hours a day, best foreigner in the sc2 scene for a while. Then he leaves korea, starts practicing less ( i believe he said just 3 hours a day) and just like that, he becomes terrible.
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What's stopping non-koreans from training to be better than the koreans? 
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On July 13 2011 12:49 Zzoram wrote:
This is a competition not welfare. If foreigners don't want to work hard for their money, they shouldn't get it.
A lot of the hard working foreigners can compete with Koreans, even when not living in Korea. Naniwa beat MC in HSC3 afterall. Sure the lazy foreigners that practice 3 hours a day can't beat Koreans, but they shouldn't, nor do they deserve big prizes for 3 hours a day of work.
Also, many of the better foreigners can just get trained in Korea then go home and as long as they keep up the hard work, they can retain the skills and training efficiency they learned in Korea. Idra was doing well even against Koreans after moving back to the US, but he's gotten lazy with practice so he's no longer doing well.
Yup, I agree with everything being said here. This is not charity or welfare. Foreigners need to realise that they actually need to put in effort to compete and win
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On July 13 2011 13:16 EnSky wrote:What's stopping non-koreans from training to be better than the koreans?
almost nothing. to me its sorta irritating when people say tournaments are being 'stolen' by the koreans. tis a shame that not all foreigners have the tenacity of players like naniwa, who have been consistently eager to play against the best of the best in a tournament setting.
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Bad Players (like most of the foreigners) shoudn't win any money!
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I hope that koreans winning everything will motivate the strong players and bring a better foriegn scene but there will be a lot of people that will give up because we dont have the industry to allow people to practice 12 hours a day and until that comes the skill gap will only get larger.
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On July 13 2011 13:16 EnSky wrote:What's stopping non-koreans from training to be better than the koreans?
Well, I think the large problem is that the non-koreans that are succeeding at any rate, are wc3 players, not BW players. Although this makes perfect sense as the international wc3 scene was relevent, and the BW scene wasnt. This is why you see players like Thorzain, Naniwa, and SaSe improving in at a very quick pace, Thorzain and Naniwa were just amateurs in wc3, but their talents have driven them to the top of sc2. The lack of talented wc3 players in America definitely hindered our production. People like Kiwi, Axslav, Perfect are just not as talented at RTS as their American BW counterparts, IdrA and NoNy, thus leading to a lack of cohesion between the scenes. Especially since IdrA pretty much hates everything wc3. Europe does very well for itself because it doesnt hinder itself with such restrictions. Also Europe rewards winning, but NA rewards being a personality, look at Destiny's fame, and his relative skill.
Anyways, what i mean to say is, just because foreign BW players arent winning anything, doesnt mean that our scene is irrelevent, the European scene is quite strong, as you can see by certain players playstyles.
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I feel like this was already discussed to death back when the big debate over NASL vs Koreans was going on. The overwhelming consensus, at least on TL, was they wanted to watch the best of the best play and if that meant watching all 50 spots go to Koreans then so be it. case closed.
I wasn't a big fan of that argument before but now after seeing foreigners get their asses handed to them over and over (with a few exceptions), I think something needs to set them straight because alot of them don't practice nearly enough to compete at the highest level. I mean honestly, everyone is doing their part in the foreign community EXCEPT the players. Companies are dishing out enormous amounts of cash for prize pools, organizations like MLG, IGN, NASL work their asses off to run their leagues, the community provides the viewing numbers, and all to have our foreign "pro's" practice 4 hours a day on a salary+sponsorship... Theirs no structure in the team houses that we have and most of them are just an effort to put good players in the same room and hope they practice.
The only foreigners that are worth following nowadays are the ones in Korea. I'm expecting the FXO guys to be just as good as Huk/Jinro/Idra 6-12 months from now if they stay that long, while foreigners are still going to be in the same old rut of "herp, anything could happen in a tournament setting so I hope I get lucky this time...". Sorry but that logic doesn't fly when a handful of Koreans (Huk/Jinro included) show up to all the foreigner tournaments and always get top 3.
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if you cant compete with the best go home and be a family man.
as a spectator i dont give a shit where the best players come from.
only that it is the best players that tournement spots go to. (cough cough nasl season 1 invite system a joke cough cough)
there has been way way way toooooo many threads on this matter and the first reply in this thread sums up everything.
its extremely sad to see "korean invasion/their coming to get us/we need you to fight against the invaders" themed threads when koreans win
and "our savior/the champion of hope/we are even against the aliens!" themed threads when a foriegner wins.
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Foreigners don't deserve to win top prizes when they only practice 1/4th the amount of koreans. Even when a foreigner gets an opportunity to get better by practicing in Korea (sheth) they don't care and leave half-way through anyways. I have no sympathy for foreigners getting out-classed by korean players, stop being lazy and do something about it.
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EPT
