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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
On July 13 2011 07:36 Zalfor wrote: people gotta get better, that's all there is to it. if the koreans are better, then they should take the money. I agree we shouldn't have competitions just so a lower skilled foreign base can play in and get possibly even more money than koreans who are playing at a higher level | ||
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WestGlen
9 Posts
Another huge problem is that the NA/EU will lose out on recruiting and growing fresh talent compared to the korean scene. If a 13-14 year old in korea is playing at a masters level and competing with pros on the ladder he could easily be recruited and be given some practice time with top level koreans to see if he can cultivate his natural talent. If this kid were to be playing in the forgien scene however there is much smaller chance of this ever happeening, therefore they lose a potentional top player and we as a community all lose out on some good sc2 games. American companies wont want to sponsor tournaments if the money is going overseas. They can pimp out idra in a casting booth or incontrol in a commercial and get their moneys worth from supporting sc2 but they will have a damn hard time doing that using Moon or July.Charismatic non koreans like Incontrol are the ones who help sc2 look like a legitimate sport to untrained nonkorean spectators. Racist or not people who dont play sc2 will not take the time of day to watch and learn about sc2 if the only top competitors are jump suit wearing koreans. One can make analogys all day to professional sports or douse the forgrien pros with encouraging tough love style retoric but until the forgrien scene has the same level of infastrcture as korea the forgeiren pros will be at a growing disadvantage regardless of practice time. | ||
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LimeNade
United States2125 Posts
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MichaelJLowell
United States610 Posts
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Coolwhip
927 Posts
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LegendaryZ
United States1583 Posts
On July 13 2011 08:35 RevLesMis wrote: Unless we get rid of Koreans in the foreign scene it is going to die out. I'm not saying we ban them but we should make the same provisions as they have in the GSL to discourage them from coming. If you love to watch Koreans play good for you go watch the GSL but alot of people want to watch there own native players play and win. It's just like any other sport. If your an American naturally you are going to root for the American team. But if say in soccer America is consistently teamed up against like Italy or Mexico and get ROFL Stomped every single time, no matter how much you love soccer you are going to stop watching it. Sure the Koreans are better and deserve to win, but how in the world can you expect players to to rise to the occasion when Koreans have years of practice and a whole culture that endorses 8 hours a day gaming? We need to let the foreign scene grow before we can go up against them. Contrary to popular TL.net belief, Koreans do not actually have a "whole culture that endorses 8 hours a day of gaming" and as far as I know, top foreigners have had just as many "years of practice" as Koreans in both Starcraft 2 and the RTS genre as a whole. Do you think people like Idra, Ret, Tyler, Morrow, White Ra, etc. just randomly popped out of the woodwork upon the release of Starcraft 2? All of them were gaming before with varying degrees of success just like the current top Koreans SC2 pros, many of whom were for the most part, moderately successful BW players at best (obvious exceptions being Boxer, Nada, July). Starcraft 2's release represented a clean slate and just like in BW, while the foreign scene was initially as strong, it's been slowly falling behind not because Koreans had some sort of head start, but because they just haven't been as organized and dedicated and the Koreans. Please don't mistake lack of dedication as laziness either. I can definitely understand that people want to live a normal life and be able to spend time with family and friends. It's just that in any competitive realm, sacrifice is going to inevitably come into play. You just can't keep up with someone that's constantly working harder than you and sacrificing more than you nor should you be expected to. In the end, the question of how far one is willing to go down this road and how much you're willing to give up is something each player has to ask himself and clearly we've seen some willing to go further than others even within the foreign community. Either way this isn't a problem that's going to be solved by segregating the community. While doing so may help more foreign players achieve some financial stability, it'll do nothing for the skill level of the foreign professional community because it'll only reinforce its current mindset and work ethic that's holding foreigners back in the first place. I suppose the question really is whether we want foreigners to be forced to give up just as much as Koreans to follow this path or whether we want to create a place where they can have their 9-5 playing Starcraft 2 and still make a living. It's a matter of opinion, but I'd personally rather force foreigners into the fire and see what they're really made of. | ||
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Philo
United States337 Posts
E-sports is a business. The people who work in this industry aren't counting on winning an NASL finals to pay their bills this month. They coach, stream, make talk shows, write articles, and somehow fit in enough time to stay consistently good at Starcraft. Koreans get none of that swag and are able to do what they do through self-sacrifice and the fact they pay no bills cramped 10 high in bunk beds like children. Now NA/EU players are putting themselves through the same trials albeit to a lesser extent (I dont think Incontrol will be bunk buddies with IdrA and Machine in Arizona). Not because their scene is dying, quite the opposite. They do it because its what people want to see and providing that is how they make sure they still have a job in a few years. Its not that NA players are suddenly being told by their management to win tourneys or find another way to live. They're competitive adults who want to win and make more money doing what they love in true American style. If your really worried about a scene dying if "foreigners" suddenly start winning all their tournaments worry about Korea.  | ||
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eloist
United States1017 Posts
On July 13 2011 08:35 iCCup.Diamond wrote: Frankly it baffles me that most foreign pros stopped playing the smaller tournaments. I came to post this. I think it is due to the many invite based events dragging players along based on name value (NASL and PainUser debacle). B level pros should not pass up B level tournaments. Unless there are foreign pros that can show that they can reliably stand above the majority of their local competitors, it's probably not even worth having this discussion. I am neither in tears nor in shock over a player not bringing home a $10,000 first place finish without having brought home one of those $100-$500 finishes. | ||
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Helios.Star
United States548 Posts
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DrBoo
Canada1177 Posts
On July 13 2011 07:36 Zalfor wrote: people gotta get better, that's all there is to it. if the koreans are better, then they should take the money. Quoted for truth. Straight up if you're not good enough to win then just play more and get better. | ||
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AndAgain
United States2621 Posts
On July 13 2011 07:36 Zalfor wrote: people gotta get better, that's all there is to it. if the koreans are better, then they should take the money. Yep, that's all there's to it. Foreigners will have to get better or quit. If they can't get better for whatever reason, that's their problem. There's no "right" to be a progamer. | ||
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Halcyondaze
United States509 Posts
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Cartel
Canada255 Posts
Player Managers. Im not talking about foreign managers. Im talking about guys like OGSTheWind. Pro level players who are whipping players into shape. They are probably forcing their players to do specific builds and to test them against each other days upon days at a time... for instance theres a new build order out. player 1 go test it vs player 2 and then player 3 and so on for 2 days straight. Everyone will be aware of the build order and be perfect against it. Not just a manager who books appointments and schedules events and airfare etc.. which on its own is really hard work and im not taking away anything from them. Im saying someone that is partially respected in the club and who can whip players into shape. Thoughts? | ||
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Govou
Canada1072 Posts
However, how many would pay to watch 'foreigner' vs 'foreigner' matches? Sure there are some gems here and there but let's face it, during last NASL, some matches between 'foreigner' were pretty lack luster and it had nothing to do with me being korean. Other side of the coin is that, while korean pros generally bring higher quality games, you want to see local heroes to emerge. You just need to take a quick look at 'the best series in SC2 history' thread to know most mentioned matches involve 'foreigner' beating korean. To see local talent to step up, you need a developing platform for local pros and semi pros. If you totally open up the scene, I fear the local talents might just get ran over. I came to this conclusion after watching past few LAN tourneys. It is easy to say 'get better or get out' but I dont think it is that simple matter. I just feel north american scene is not well prepared at this moment. So I think introducing a limit of players from any one nation might not be a bad idea. | ||
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HardlyNever
United States1258 Posts
Right now it seems like most "foreign" pros are either: A. People who play a lot of ladder, and probably live either with their parents or with a lot of friends. or B. People who have full-time or close to full-time jobs/school and try to squeeze in as much SC2 as they can on their free-time, while being on a team. I don't think either of these models will produce players that can consistently compete with Korean pros. I know some team houses are starting to develop outside of Korea, and I think that will be the answer. I also think there will be a lot less foreigners who consider themselves true "pros." | ||
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applejuice
307 Posts
On July 13 2011 08:21 vnlegend wrote: like that. So you're a US company, you put up $50,000. Guy wins, takes a check home to Korea, the end. Will the corporate honchos consider that money well-spent? If the people like watching it, yeah. People who want to see xxxZergMaster200xxx from the U.S.A. compete can watch the IPL. But these people are in the minority. And a couple things: - A portion of sponsor dollars goes to sponsorship of the event itself. Tournaments with Koreans clearly garner more interest (see minority comment). Sponsors will be very happy to see Koreans in this case. - The same thing you are arguing for applies to europeans, or anywhere else said company does not wish to spend its advertising dollars. Not just Koreans. - People like watching top foreigners, even if they don't win. They don't need to sponsor the winner necessarily, to sponsor a player that gets a lot of attention. ..Liquid Tyler has a great sponsor through MLG (STRIDE gum), and we all know how well he plays (even against mostly foreigners, e.g. NASL, MLG). Yeah.......................game over. | ||
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nalgene
Canada2153 Posts
( like that oov guy who was found on bnet... and ended up doing really well at the time... ) they see something in that player and then trained them to perfection... They also play more... the NA server per player may have like 600 games each, but the KR ones have 1200+ on average they also have coaches who have experience in doing the coaching for many years... so it's not new to them | ||
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skrzmark
United States1528 Posts
On July 13 2011 07:56 Anihc wrote: lol Hwangsin played in last Saturday's $20 NA CraftCup did he win? It's not too bad between Koreans and Foreigners, foreigners still can take off games of Koreans. Once Koreans start 2-0ing each foreigner then its too late, as long as they put up some kind of fight I think the foreigners have a chance. Though I would still vote for the Koreans, because I'm Korean bias. I'm very impressed by Sen as of late, I don't know what kind of practicing he's been doing but he's godly. I have high hopes for him in the future. Koreans just have so many good players, just think Puma is supposed to be like the equivalent to Destiny, they aren't in that many tournaments. It just shows how much higher the skill level is for GM for each region. | ||
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Primadog
United States4411 Posts
There's a reason why Liquid, EG, Fnatics, sixjax, Complexity, FXO (the list go on) can fly players all over the world, while Korean teams have to beg for traveling stipends at every turn (see Fruitdealer at Dreamhack). Sure, there's no "infrastructure" in the west like in Korea, but infrastructure can be bought. Fact of the matter is, while the foreigner teams spent their money on traveling and player salary, korean teams pool their resources on their player house and coach - the stuff that can improve their team. I am not blaming foreigner teams for this business decision (that's rooted in tradition), but such decision stunts player growth. At the same time, this also mean that even Korean teams without sponsors (I think fOu is still sponsorless?) can maintain a player house for practice. I am just go out and make this assertion: if every team withdraw their player salaries and traveling budget, every single major team can buy and maintain the cost of a pro-house, either in Southern California or in Sweden. Doing so also has huge implications, the marginal cost of picking up a new player is only the cost of extra meal portion in feeding the player. This is how we can catch up, and this is how we can find new talent. | ||
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anatem
Romania1369 Posts
On July 13 2011 07:36 Zalfor wrote: people gotta get better, that's all there is to it. if the koreans are better, then they should take the money. bam! this guy closed the thread on the first reply. esports as job -> work. the koreans work, ofcourse they'll cash in, and theyn should. 'bout time for people who call themselves pros to step it up and make a commitment. the koreans are taking all the cash because there's too much of a casual approach in the west, where "pros" sit at home and play the game in this grey area of "it's a game i can make cash out of" (because of the explosion of popularity of esports that throws easy money their way) instead of taking it seriously as a job that can be their proper livelihood and as such requires all the sacrifices that come with a career in a form of sports (any form of sports requires significant sacrifices, so for ex. if you can't at least be away from home for a few months to train with the best in korea when offered the opportunity, you should think again if you're cut out for what this sport takes, and cut your losses if you're not). what i mean is, i get the hardships etc., but you can't have the cookie and eat it at the same time. but it's getting better and solutions for the western mode of thought are coming up. and hopefully more pros will have the balls to stay in korea for a while and take advantage of the opportunity of growing in the best environment for their profession at this moment in the evolution of sc as an esport if they wanna have a future with this. eventually over time the non-commital will be thinned out. that, or esports will crash and burn (if esports isn't global, there is no esports, only tournaments for gamers). | ||
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