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On July 13 2011 07:38 KeksX wrote:
They just have to start practice efficently, and please don't say that they already did. They clearly practice way worse than the koreans.
Hard work gets rewarded, so I'm okay with foreigners, that not practice in a good way, not getting all the money - they don't deserve it then.
So in reality you have no idea just how foreigners practice but you know they're lazier?
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On July 13 2011 08:49 oskarla wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 08:47 Emperor_Earth wrote:On July 13 2011 08:36 Yaotzin wrote:On July 13 2011 08:34 Sbrubbles wrote:
You say this as if it's a fact, when this is in fact VERY disputable. There are many many ppl who prefer to watch a slightly lower quality game between two players familiar to the foreign scene (say: Tyler vs Morrow) than a higher quallity game between two leading koreans (say: MC vs Bomber).
If there's a market for it then someone will make a tournament for average white dudes. Basically this. It's not like MLG/NASL allowing Koreans in and consequently Koreans dominating those leagues is stopping ANYONE from creating a NA/EU only tourney. If people really want to watch a segregated tournament, then there's a lucrative opportunity there for any entrepreneur interested. Or you know, a major corporation, like IGN?
My point exactly. Existence of NASL/MLG isn't preventing IPL. If the IPL invitation style draws a larger audience, then there will be more and more tournaments springing up to take advantage of that market.
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On July 13 2011 07:36 Zalfor wrote:
people gotta get better, that's all there is to it.
if the koreans are better, then they should take the money.
perfect response, the only thing it should do is make the foreigners work harder to get better. Or travel to korea for a month or 2 for a bootcamp experience to see how its done, i guarantee we will see thorzain naniwa and sase improve hugely upon their stay in korea and that may give foreigner more motivation to go over there.
I really hope it does because in terms of practice korea is the place to be, thats why i was so dissapointed in sheth when he seemed so unmotivated about korea he really could have used that opportunity to get the most out of it and tried to excel. Instead he doesnt even go back for the last 2 weeks (its only 2 weeks how homesick can a grown man get in 2 weeks?) it was just really dissapointing to see a progamer with so much potential have an attitude like that about potentially the biggest opportunity of his progaming carreer
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Would you rather watch a game between two players from your own country, or two players that are exceptionally good at the game?
I don't care what race or nationality they are, prize money in Starcraft needs to go to the players who deserve it. The sad truth is that the foreigner scene needs to adapt or die. We can't spoonfeed tournament money to foreign players that would get crushed 100% of the time in a Bo5 vs. any average Korean pro.
Whether it's by longer practice hours, better quantity and quality prohouses, or better strategies and mindsets, foreign pros will either compete with the Koreans or vanish entirely.
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honestly, the coding doesn't mean shit to be perfectly honest. take mma,drg for example--they are both code b players-- their skill indicates otherwise. the code system of gsl is very punishing for people who have a slight slump.
furthermore, in code a this is paralleled with players like leenock who showed a strong showing early in the gsl then went away for awhile and now he is back kicking ass and taking names.
but overall, i do agree that all koreans are coming out of the "woodworks" but some are no less skilled than code-s players.
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On July 13 2011 08:36 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 08:34 Sbrubbles wrote:
You say this as if it's a fact, when this is in fact VERY disputable. There are many many ppl who prefer to watch a slightly lower quality game between two players familiar to the foreign scene (say: Tyler vs Morrow) than a higher quallity game between two leading koreans (say: MC vs Bomber).
If there's a market for it then someone will make a tournament for average white dudes.
You're right, and in fact there are plenty of smaller tournaments for local stars to show up, just like there are local sports leagues for every sport in every country in the world (there's no need for you to be pejorative calling foreign players "average white dudes").
The problem is, there's not enough scale/money in SC2 for these smaller tournaments to actually sustain a programer, except in Korea, where the local tournaments and sponsers actually generate a lot of cash. This is why I believe it is inevitable that Korea will generate more players and, consequently, better players. Of course, I say this from guesswork because I have no access to these figures, but God knows I hope I'm wrong.
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On July 13 2011 08:35 RevLesMis wrote:
Unless we get rid of Koreans in the foreign scene it is going to die out. I'm not saying we ban them but we should make the same provisions as they have in the GSL to discourage them from coming. If you love to watch Koreans play good for you go watch the GSL but alot of people want to watch there own native players play and win. It's just like any other sport. If your an American naturally you are going to root for the American team. But if say in soccer America is consistently teamed up against like Italy or Mexico and get ROFL Stomped every single time, no matter how much you love soccer you are going to stop watching it. Sure the Koreans are better and deserve to win, but how in the world can you expect players to to rise to the occasion when Koreans have years of practice and a whole culture that endorses 8 hours a day gaming? We need to let the foreign scene grow before we can go up against them.
Um, actually plenty of Americans (including me) watch the US play Soccer all the time in the World cup where they're consistently teamed up against countries "like Italy or Mexico." And I would rather watch the US play them in high-stakes tournaments like the World Cup rather than watch the US whale on like Guadalupe for small regional cups.
For soccer, you have causality reversed - it's not that not being good at soccer makes it a less popular American sport, it's that it being a less popular sport contributes to less emphasis/potential in US soccer programs. Likewise, it won't be the case that not being good at SC2 will make it less popular in the foreign scene. I still watch Jinro and TLO, even if they haven't been posting great results.
If you're talking about nenwcomers to the scene, what difference does it make to them whether it's Korean or not? When I first watched Beta tournaments, I didn't know that TLO was from Germany or that IdrA was from the US, but I didn't care, I became a fan of TLO regardless of what "side" or nationality he represented.
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On July 13 2011 08:53 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 08:36 Yaotzin wrote:On July 13 2011 08:34 Sbrubbles wrote:
You say this as if it's a fact, when this is in fact VERY disputable. There are many many ppl who prefer to watch a slightly lower quality game between two players familiar to the foreign scene (say: Tyler vs Morrow) than a higher quallity game between two leading koreans (say: MC vs Bomber).
If there's a market for it then someone will make a tournament for average white dudes. You're right, and in fact there are plenty of smaller tournaments for local stars to show up, just like there are local sports leagues for every sport in every country in the world (there's no need for you to be pejorative calling foreign players "average white dudes"). The problem is, there's not enough scale/money in SC2 for these smaller tournaments to actually sustain a programer, except in Korea, where the local tournaments and sponsers actually generate a lot of cash. This is why I believe it is inevitable that Korea will generate more players and, consequently, better players. Of course, I say this from guesswork because I have no access to these figures, but God knows I hope I'm wrong.
even if all this leads to korea producing better players, do i give a shit?
i wanne watch the best players play. i do not care from where the come from, just that they are the best.
If I want to watch an artistic masterclass, im not gonna single out painters from a certain area and just view their paintings. Im going to see the best masterpieces from the globe.
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On July 13 2011 07:56 lunchforthesky wrote:
Sport, including E-Sports should be a global competition. We don't ban Australians from playing cricket, Brazilians from football or Americans from Golf, why would we ban Koreans from Starcraft?
Australian cricket dominance is over. Jai Hind! Also, Americans really aren't doing the best atm in golf, I would say the Europeans are mopping up show, with some good asians.
But on topic, I do wonder how many players will stick around as pros, because it does limit their career after gaming. However, the prize money is meant to be given to the best player, so let the best player take it (unless it is a purely national tournament... ie only Americans, or only Canadians etc...).
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On July 13 2011 07:36 Zalfor wrote:
people gotta get better, that's all there is to it.
if the koreans are better, then they should take the money.
Match and point.
The Koreans are simply just playing at a higher level due to their environment and methods, they are not inherently better than foreigners. It's up to everyone else step it up a notch.
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i think that if they can't beat Koreans they just need to train harder or get better simple as that.
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So many closet racists around here. It's really disgusting.
Thank god we actually had a poll and 88% of all people said they want the best to win, and if it's the koreans, then so be it.
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United Kingdom1708 Posts
So many threads starting to pop up, upon the steady realisation that the foreigner-Korean relationship as a truly competitive one is a bubble. At least, if things continue the way they are.
I don't think that the kind of money in sponsorships etc is something that could be sustained anyway- which graphics card company is going to sponsor a tournament for a game which can run fine on their midrange model from a year ago? If you're selling your incredible (expensive) mouse, and you say "Use razer products, and play like Drewb... oh no wait...", suddenly it's not such a strong vessel.
That's some major sponsorship channels lost right there. Lump that in with the fact that fewer people will be watching a player/team who is a loser, and any sponsor will think twice before pumping more money towards them, and you've got more problems.
And of course, interest on such a huge scale isn't a lasting thing either. I believe it's been said time and time again, that the vast majority of players are casual gamers. By their very nature, they do not play a game for that long. Organic growth is conducive to longevity- fashion, craze and novelty is not. I firmly believe that the scene will steadily diminish, and may stabilise at a much smaller magnitude than it currently is. At that point, are truly professional foreigners viable? No, probably not. Will the Koreans be stuck in that same boat, despite their higher skill? Maybe not, as we have seen how such a thing can become deeper embedded in the public consciousness than is likely elsewhere.
At that point of stabilisation comes crunch time. Is it something that people want to continue, though the monetary rewards are not so great? Or have we seen the birth of a new (and in my opinion, worse) era, of relatively high profile professional gamers who have to switch from game to game every few years, to keep up with the flavour of the time, and therefore the cash flow. Or perhaps the infrastructure of the SC2 esports scene would begin to rebuild from nearer to the ground, up, in a far more healthy way.
Of course, it's possible that I'm wrong, and things can still stabilise at a high point, possibly higher than at the moment. But I don't think the current SC2 scene was built in a way which really allows that so easily. It did not steadily grow, evolve, gain interest, gain public curiosity etc. It was built on what was and is, it has to be said, truly incredible marketing. Not wishing to dismiss the game- it is fun. But I don't know if it has quite what it takes to maintain interest when much of the mass-appeal is gone, and the money has become less.
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I expect bad/mediocre pro's won't be able to keep this up for much longer. We have ~100 foreign pro's going on talk shows and streaming themselves messing around on the ladder for hours every day. These people aren't going to be making even top 16 in a major tournament even if they play at their absolute best.
Why are they pro's and how the hell did they manage to convince sponsors that they're investing in something worthwhile? :<
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Did we see, lets say, Blizzard give 8 workers at start to the players who is a kids/girl/elder people? Nope. This is a fair game. If u want to win, just play better.
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On July 13 2011 07:36 Zalfor wrote:
people gotta get better, that's all there is to it.
if the koreans are better, then they should take the money.
this, and
On July 13 2011 08:45 MonkSEA wrote:lols. It's a tournament for a reason, the best person wins, that's all. If Koreans are dominant that means they're better, that's all. All these Koreans are taking our moneys threads are getting really old and lame. If foreigners don't want their cashes taken by Koreans, they need to start practising like it's an actual job, not any of this 2-3 hours a day shit 
this.
i don't see IPL.
invitational tournaments brings lack of skill. and you can't expect see high level matches.
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On July 13 2011 08:30 sitromit wrote:
How many western progamers made any significant amount of money from tournament earnings until now? Most foreigner tournaments consistently had the same few people at the top. 2-3 names in NA, 4-5 names in EU and that's it. The rest of the hundreds of competitors weren't taking home anything anyway. The only ones getting hurt by the Koreans, will be those few at the top who won everything because they didn't have decent competition. Well, now they do, so tough luck...
Cant agree more!
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with this E-sport the real money atm is in streaming and coaching. If you win a tournament great but players like Destiny found out how to make money by streaming and the occasional coach
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This is stupid, MLG, a US event has been won only once by an American, Idra. There has been one Canadian, two Swedes and now one Korean. The fact that this is only being seen as an issue after a Korean has won is pure discrimination and xenophobia. We can compete with them, Thorzain, Naniwa, Huk and Idra when hes in a good mood can beat any top Korean. Don't get bitter, get better
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On July 13 2011 07:39 QTIP. wrote:
Foreign teams need to step it up. They are definitely disadvantaged because the Western world lacks the E-sports infrastructure that the Koreans have.... however -- that very infrastructure wasn't there from the beginning, it was built. Hopefully we'll see something similar in NA / EU
The point, though, is can that infrastructure ever come to being when the Koreans are coming over and winning everything.
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EPT
