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On June 08 2011 15:57 Xpace wrote:
Wonder what would happen if the Korean Brood War players transition. Seems to be an issue rarely mentioned whenever a shiny article comparing the progress of foreigners to Koreans is published.
You must have missed this article (and the ensuing 'discussion' that followed)
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I want to know what other people have to think about this, because its been completely ignored in the foreign Starcraft scene.
Recently, we've seen western gamers organize themselves into teams, and sometimes team houses (a la TLO in Sweden, Root in Florida, EG in Arizona), attempting to duplicate the Korean scene's pro houses that seem to produce such talent and success. However, the one factor that is always missing in our western houses is the coach. We always talk about how great Coach Lee is, or how awesome Cella is, but we simply haven't put in any thought to replicating that niche over here. Anyone who has ever played a competitive sport seriously (even an individual one like tennis) knows how important it is to have a good coach. I realize that its probably not currently feasible for sponsors to pay a dedicated coach, but I feel like it could be beneficial for teams, especially those organizing themselves into houses, to have a player who is also a good leader step up and maybe play a little less, but help the team as a coach.
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It's a well written article, but it completely strays from the initial point. We're talking about competitiveness of foreign players against the Korean players - the ambient, crowd, personalities and everything else that was good about MLG Columbus doesn't really have anything to do with how competitive foreign players are.
So the only relevant point brought up was that the "games were close". Yeah, some of them were (deceptively) close - many of them on Day 1 when the Korean players were in no physical condition to play nearly their best to the point that they were passing out in between games. And even then most of them managed to edge out and win their series. The "claims" that Losira's keyboard wasn't working at all were confirmed by Milkis as well.
I don't want to pile it on, but IMO false optimism is the worst kind of optimism.
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Very interesting article!
I have to admit that at first, I was very sad for the foreign scene after this MLG (even though the event in itself was pure awesomeness) because of the obvious points you mentionned but thanks to you, I have faith again!
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Well written post, but I can't help but feel the exact opposite. I feel that say, 2 months ago, there were a lot of foreigners that could potentially compete in GSL with the koreans, and that the scenes weren't too far apart. Now it just seems like the complete opposite. It's only a matter of time, imo, until we don't have anyone in Code S (maybe even Code A) from the foreign scene that can compete.
A while ago I would say there was at least 10 - 15 foreigners that could compete in the GSL. Now I say that number has gone down to a handful, being only the select best players from their race in the foreign scene. Soon it will probably be 0.
As Koreans continues to live in progamer houses and practice like madmans for the hardest tournament in the world and westeners are satisfied with minimal practice time and easy money on small tournaments, the scene has honestly nowhere to go but down. MLG's korean domination did nothing to make me feel any differently.
And honestly, I'm 100% ok with this.
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This could use a spotlight. Excellent and very well formulated post.
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Very nice post. Thanks!
But there's a "programmer" somewhere in there =P
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Excellent article. Highlights what's important without being biased in the slightest.
I agree with what "ffadicted" said above though. The "skill gap" seem to be growing. From being almost non-existent during the beta, to pretty significant. Statistically speaking only a few foreigners are close to the higher level Koreans (a handful of those I'd consider the best did not participate in MLG). Last winter I felt the gap was much smaller. But..so what? There's an amazing foreign scene with tons and tons of highly entertaining and talented players, and at this rate the scene will only continue to grow. The fact that the highest level of play is found in Korea doesn't change that. Let's just enjoy it for what it is and support it to our fullest, and eventually the conditions (practice environment, earnings, common acceptance..etc.) for foreign pro players will end up being up to par with those in Korea.
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July in the open brackets was the best thing in MLG.
That dude slaughtered and i couldn't help feel happy seeing God of War just tearing through the field like an unstoppable force. Specially reading forums from people not heard of him going all crazy "he only cheeses. Someone stop the cheesy zerg. He only goes all in".
I couldn't help laughing and then reading about another win in 5 minutes for July 
Anyways, exchange program between GSL and MLG was the best thing that could happen SC2. Finnally the tournaments become global and here is hoping that this will only increase the quality of games of the western scene as well.
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On June 08 2011 17:08 susySquark wrote:
I want to know what other people have to think about this, because its been completely ignored in the foreign Starcraft scene.
Recently, we've seen western gamers organize themselves into teams, and sometimes team houses (a la TLO in Sweden, Root in Florida, EG in Arizona), attempting to duplicate the Korean scene's pro houses that seem to produce such talent and success. However, the one factor that is always missing in our western houses is the coach. We always talk about how great Coach Lee is, or how awesome Cella is, but we simply haven't put in any thought to replicating that niche over here. Anyone who has ever played a competitive sport seriously (even an individual one like tennis) knows how important it is to have a good coach. I realize that its probably not currently feasible for sponsors to pay a dedicated coach, but I feel like it could be beneficial for teams, especially those organizing themselves into houses, to have a player who is also a good leader step up and maybe play a little less, but help the team as a coach. Coaches can probably help a lot and a lot of things around players could be delegated like with other sports.
In an ideal professional sc2 environment you likely have people that for example: Analyze opponents. People that keep up with the latest strategy development outside the team. People that analyze mathematics and probabilities. People that analyze micro, positioning, maps and unit compositions. People that focus on keyboard layouts and mechanics. And so on.
The level of "elitness" in the professional sc2 training environment mostly rely on money(not completely since you for example need to know what a good elite training environment would be like to be able to spend money on it), as with other sports.
The money in sc2 should mostly depend on sc2s popularity, especially from the viewers perspective and the interest appear to be growing looking at for example this MLG. Where it will stabilize or will be in for example 2 years seems impossible to predict but it is probably safe to assume it wont be anywhere close to any of the currently more popular "normal" sports.
And as with the financial aspect, the talent pool should mostly rely on popularity as well.
So in short, how good the foreign scene will be compared to the Korean scene will probably be decided by the popularity of sc2 outside Korea.
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In reply to Akta,
They have managers who manage the teams and that is pretty much it. The players have to coordinate and coach themselves.
It's not just the hours they put in and I already have beef with that because players have to find other means of income at the same time like live streaming on ladder (which is bad practice), coaching and in some cases casting or doing podcast shows. This only puts them more behind. I used to manage several BW teams and I know how hard it is when everyone is on their own schedule, but there is a lot more to it than just putting in time to practice as I said many times before.
The Koreans have their own model for how they practice and what they practice. Some like to practice the same safe cookie-cutter build over and over until they don't even have to think twice about what they are doing. Doesn't matter what the opponent is doing. They keep going through it for months on end until the idea is pregnant in their head. Only then, do they start responding to what they see their opponents doing.
There are very few foreigners that structure their practice around this notion. Instead, they like to play around with all sorts of builds and improvise on the fly. This leads to less polished builds and as a result, they come in with a disadvantage against an opponent with a polished build. You cannot second guess yourself. There is no time, you have to be able to make a decision on the spot. Mentality.
Sponsored teams in our community only have managers. Not 'coaches' per say. Sure, Naz will put on that coach cap from time to time. He understands the game very well and will take the time to go over his team's replays and give suggestions here or there, but by no means does he fit the criteria of a coach. He manages the team. That is his duty; that is his obligation. A coach is a full-time job.
With that said, just because you are good player doesn't necessarily mean you will be a good coach. Coaching a diamond player is very different from coaching a professional athlete. Understanding the game is only part of the battle.
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On June 08 2011 16:57 red4ce wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 15:57 Xpace wrote:
Wonder what would happen if the Korean Brood War players transition. Seems to be an issue rarely mentioned whenever a shiny article comparing the progress of foreigners to Koreans is published. You must have missed this article (and the ensuing 'discussion' that followed)
Gonna sound selfish/defeatist here, but I hope they stick with brood war for as long as possible, the skill gap is already bad now, but should BW A-teamers switch the foreign scene is as good as done I would think.
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Sandro it's one tournament. I think it is too early to start jumping to conclusions. Some players have started pulling away from the pack.
If training philosophies don't become more fruitful on our end it may very well be the case.
All the Koreans do is practice. They are players first and everything else doesn't matter to them.
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On June 08 2011 22:17 StarStruck wrote:
In reply to Akta,
They have managers who manage the teams and that is pretty much it. The players have to coordinate and coach themselves.
It's not just the hours they put in and I already have beef with that because players have to find other means of income at the same time like live streaming on ladder (which is bad practice), coaching and in some cases casting or doing podcast shows. This only puts them more behind. I used to manage several BW teams and I know how hard it is when everyone is on their own schedule, but there is a lot more to it than just putting in time to practice as I said many times before.
The Koreans have their own model for how they practice and what they practice. Some like to practice the same safe cookie-cutter build over and over until they don't even have to think twice about what they are doing. Doesn't matter what the opponent is doing. They keep going through it for months on end until the idea is pregnant in their head. Only then, do they start responding to what they see their opponents doing.
There are very few foreigners that structure their practice around this notion. Instead, they like to play around with all sorts of builds and improvise on the fly. This leads to less polished builds and as a result, they come in with a disadvantage against an opponent with a polished build. You cannot second guess yourself. There is no time, you have to be able to make a decision on the spot. Mentality.
Sponsored teams in our community only have managers. Not 'coaches' per say. Sure, Naz will put on that coach cap from time to time. He understands the game very well and will take the time to go over his team's replays and give suggestions here or there, but by no means does he fit the criteria of a coach. He manages the team. That is his duty; that is his obligation. A coach is a full-time job.
With that said, just because you are good player doesn't necessarily mean you will be a good coach. Coaching a diamond player is very different from coaching a professional athlete. Understanding the game is only part of the battle. I wasn't trying to write about how people currently practice sc2. Was just trying to illustrate the difference between less limited elite training environments and the current situation and that the skill levels of the different scenes should mostly boil down to sc2's popularity.
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Great post. Deserves to be spotlighted.
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Awesome write up man, a lot of valid points that have to be taken in to consideration,etc.
As awesome an event this is and how the Koreans have been reacting to it and saying it is truly a global event I am hoping maybe next time we will see the Ukranian powerhouses of Dimaga/White-Ra maybe playing also.
Since I want to see White-Ra playing against more koreans and stuff but i guess we will see in DreamHack how things turn out.
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On June 08 2011 18:13 Talin wrote:
It's a well written article, but it completely strays from the initial point. We're talking about competitiveness of foreign players against the Korean players - the ambient, crowd, personalities and everything else that was good about MLG Columbus doesn't really have anything to do with how competitive foreign players are.
So the only relevant point brought up was that the "games were close". Yeah, some of them were (deceptively) close - many of them on Day 1 when the Korean players were in no physical condition to play nearly their best to the point that they were passing out in between games. And even then most of them managed to edge out and win their series. The "claims" that Losira's keyboard wasn't working at all were confirmed by Milkis as well.
I don't want to pile it on, but IMO false optimism is the worst kind of optimism.
The better the scene the better the players that are produced. The greater the popularity the greater attractiveness to players. I'm not saying we'll match korea but a dead scene means we have no chance. A vibrant scene means we have a greater chance.
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Something everyone failed to mention is that July, MC, Losira, And MMA could all be considered top 16 Code S players.
They are significantly better than every other korean besides the obvious ones like Bomber/MKP/Ace/Alicia/NesTea
The top foreigners have already shown that they can make the Ro16 and Ro8, but that is when they hit the absolute top players where the win rate starts to drop, which is to be expected.
So no, not all of korea > all of the foreign scene, but the absolute best maybe.
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Just wanted to say it was a great opening post. I've never cared for or watched any MLG competition before Colombus, and now I'm hyped for the next one.
Regarding Koreans owning white dudes: you do realise they sent -
1 x 2-time GSL champion
1 x GSTL Ace Killer son of Boxer
1 x Code A champion son of Nestea
1 x SC:BW god of war
1 x IEM Runner Up / Warcraft 3 pro
Sure, they didn't send the 4 GSL champions, but the Koreans gave an exceptionally strong showing. If NA had lost to TheBest + LegalMind + BitbyBit + Rain...well that wouldn't actually happen tbh. Anyway, point is that all 5 Korean players were scary strong, I do think foreigners have catching up to do, but I don't think it's a downer when you realise that it was really the best of the best Koreans they were up against.
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On June 08 2011 12:48 Golgotha wrote:
Lets face it, as it stands now, if all the Koreans from the GSL came over they would dominate the NA scene, and only a few foreigners like IdrA and Naniwa would stand a chance (I am just naming a few). But I see no reason at all to be "afraid" or worry about the fierce competition the Koreans bring.
And, do you know why?
Because, the only thing that is separating the Koreans from the rest of the world is their work ethic and intense motivation in what they do. MMA said it best, he says that the Koreans simply work harder and that is why there is a gap.
So I ask you, is having work ethic something only a Korean can do? Are they genetically blessed with work ethic? No and no! ANYONE can have a strong work ethic just like the Koreans do. Anyone can choose to practice like the Koreans do. We are just waiting for that person to come along. On the other hand we have NA players who do not take the game as seriously or are too busy doing other things to have enough practice time. Take for example Idra (I love IdrA but I have to say this), he pretty much flat out said that he doesn't need to practice as much to stay good and currently he trains 3 hours a day.....against other NA players that might work but he is falling behind the 8+ hour Koreans.
Thus, it is in my humble opinion that the NA scene should constantly invite and play against the Koreans and compete against them because they are the standard in which SC2 must be looked upon for it to grow. 1st, 2nd, 3rd Korean place finishes look bad but like any loss, there is so much to learn from this defeat. It shows us that the NA scene has much to learn and has to grow, it keeps us on our toes and makes us hungry to get better and improve.
IdrA and Inc said that they do not want MLG to be overrun by Koreans......IMO the Koreans SHOULD overrun the tournament so people realize that changes must be made if we want to compete.
I agree fully!
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EPT
