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On June 08 2011 22:47 bittman wrote:
Just wanted to say it was a great opening post. I've never cared for or watched any MLG competition before Colombus, and now I'm hyped for the next one.
Regarding Koreans owning white dudes: you do realise they sent -
1 x 2-time GSL champion
1 x GSTL Ace Killer son of Boxer
1 x Code A champion son of Nestea
1 x SC:BW god of war
1 x IEM Runner Up / Warcraft 3 pro
Sure, they didn't send the 4 GSL champions, but the Koreans gave an exceptionally strong showing. If NA had lost to TheBest + LegalMind + BitbyBit + Rain...well that wouldn't actually happen tbh. Anyway, point is that all 5 Korean players were scary strong, I do think foreigners have catching up to do, but I don't think it's a downer when you realise that it was really the best of the best Koreans they were up against.
I don't get this argument.
What did you expect? lets send the "bad" koreans just so can foreigners proof they can actually win against A korean?
Of course they send the good players (arguable not even the best) but wasn't it the same with the foreigners?
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Italy12246 Posts
Another issue consider is the separate servers. With foreigners only laddering vs foreigners, and koreans laddering vs koreans, how can foreigners realistically catch up when they always play against "inferior" competition, except in tournaments?
It's hard to improve that much when your practice games in whatever team house (stockholme, root's house, whatever) aren't as challenging in the first place; laddering on the korean servers is the first thing that comes to mind but then you have to take lag into account...
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Just a comment about your facts. Naniwa "not detecting" the DT shrine was not why he lost. If you watch the replay, you'll actually notice that Naniwa's stalkers were standing right next to the DT shrine while his zealots were dancing. There was some kind of glitch from the observer view. Naniwa proceeded to throw down a forge immediately after he saw the shrine.
Overall, good read though
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Very nice write up, it really was nice to see some of the foreign give the top korean's a good run for their money and even beat them straight up.
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“pro” into programmer
You mean pro gamer, right? 
Good writeup!
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Still feel many foreigners seem unwilling to make the sacrifices necessary to really make it as a progamer.
As much respect as I have for BW progamers for example I would never want to live that lifestyle myself, regardless of how much money and fame it gave me.
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Its that easy: The koreans just practice a lot more, more efficient and harder. For Foreigners SC2 is a hobby and for koreans its their fulltime job.
Look at the SlayerS Team, there must be a reason why they're winning everything. Looks like they just have a really great practice-environment.
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On June 09 2011 02:01 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 22:47 bittman wrote:
Just wanted to say it was a great opening post. I've never cared for or watched any MLG competition before Colombus, and now I'm hyped for the next one.
Regarding Koreans owning white dudes: you do realise they sent -
1 x 2-time GSL champion
1 x GSTL Ace Killer son of Boxer
1 x Code A champion son of Nestea
1 x SC:BW god of war
1 x IEM Runner Up / Warcraft 3 pro
Sure, they didn't send the 4 GSL champions, but the Koreans gave an exceptionally strong showing. If NA had lost to TheBest + LegalMind + BitbyBit + Rain...well that wouldn't actually happen tbh. Anyway, point is that all 5 Korean players were scary strong, I do think foreigners have catching up to do, but I don't think it's a downer when you realise that it was really the best of the best Koreans they were up against. I don't get this argument. What did you expect? lets send the "bad" koreans just so can foreigners proof they can actually win against A korean? Of course they send the good players (arguable not even the best) but wasn't it the same with the foreigners?
His point was that it's not the entire Korean scene that's ahead of NA/EU scene, but just their top 8/16. The other thing to consider is that the Koreans who went played exceptionally well by their standards as well and had good luck with the brackets. MMA played better than he ever has in GSL, Losira managed to dodge ZvT except for Major and MMA, MC is a 2-time GSL champ, looked mortal the whole event, and would have lost in loser's bracket to Thorzain if extended series didn't exist.
There were quite a few notable players that were missing like Socke, White Ra, Dimaga, Sen. Also, a few top-tier NA players had uncharacteristic play like Idra on day 3, Select, and Kiwikaki.
I'm not taking anything away from the Koreans here. They brought their A-games to Columbus and did extremely well. But to point to these results and say "NA/EU players can't keep up with the Koreans" is silly. I watched a lot of games this weekend and I never thought "the level of play is behind Code S and A."
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I'm curious, do the top western teams (Dignitas, Mouz, Liquid, ect) have coaches or is it just the players helping each other out? If not, I think they should really look into hiring one. Every player could use a different perspective on their gameplay/strategies and a coach can provide that. They can also help players formulate new strategies or they could be that rock that keeps the players grounded. Think about it, can you imagine the Lakers winning those championships without Phil Jackson? Why do we expect our guys to play at the highest level possible when they lack the same tools as the korean players?
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Point 1.
If mlg didn't have the stupid rule that map wins carry from group to brackets thorzain would have won MC.
Of the first 3 maps played on sunday 2 were won by thorzain and 1 by MC.
So in my eyes thorzain >>> MC
on the group match MC had jetlag , thorzain had jetlag and was burned out from openbracket, so 1 vs 2, it was obvious mc would win before the match even started.
On sunday both were fresh and on their game, so i think guys coming from open bracket shouldn't have that rule applied to them, in fact remove that rule entirely, its an incredibly stupid rule no other league uses for obvious reasons.
Point 2.
Idra after that early gg against mma, just lost confidence in himself and when he loses in his head he can lose to the worst players, so if that he battled to the end... he would have been one map ahead and then god knows how things might have ended differently.
So imo rules, unfair seedings and some lack of confidence made koreans look better then they should.
I mean what have koreans done in the TSL ? Where they weren't given privileged seedings, imo all koreans should have went through the open bracket and proven themselves like thorzain, july and morrow did.
As far as i know there still isn't a good fair tournament where the best koreans and foreigners have been put to the test towards each other.
TSL had unfair pings toward koreans only legit match between korean and foreigner was mc vs thorzain , both were at europe playing in a european server.
MLG had bad rules and koreans were treated like kings giving them privileged seedings instead of working to earn them like everyone else did, through the open brackets, the best placing a korean had that went through the open bracket was july, go look up how well he did.
In the GSL WC the best foreigners weren't there period and still in the team league they(koreans) ONLY won by 1 map.
etc etc
So there still isn't a way to know how far the gap is, if there is even a gap.
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On June 09 2011 03:09 rareh wrote:
Point 1.
If mlg didn't have the stupid rule that map wins carry from group to brackets thorzain would have won MC.
Of the first 3 maps played on sunday 2 were won by thorzain and 1 by MC.
So in my eyes thorzain >>> MC
on the group match MC had jetlag , thorzain had jetlag and was burned out from openbracket, so 1 vs 2, it was obvious mc would win before the match even started.
On sunday both were fresh and on their game, so i think guys coming from open bracket shouldn't have that rule applied to them, in fact remove that rule entirely, its an incredibly stupid rule no other league uses for obvious reasons.
Point 2.
Idra after that early gg against mma, just lost confidence in himself and when he loses in his head he can lose to the worst players, so if that he battled to the end... he would have been one map ahead and then god knows how things might have ended differently.
So imo rules, unfair seedings and some lack of confidence made koreans look better then they should.
I mean what have koreans done in the TSL ? Where they weren't given privileged seedings, imo all koreans should have went through the open bracket and proven themselves like thorzain, july and morrow did.
As far as i know there still isn't a good fair tournament where the best koreans and foreigners have been put to the test towards each other.
TSL had unfair pings toward koreans only legit match between korean and foreigner was mc vs thorzain , both were at europe playing in a european server.
MLG had bad rules and koreans were treated like kings giving them privileged seedings instead of working to earn them like everyone else did, through the open brackets, the best placing a korean had that went through the open bracket was july, go look up how well he did.
In the GSL WC the best foreigners weren't there period and still in the team league they(koreans) ONLY won by 1 map.
etc etc
So there still isn't a way to know how far the gap is, if there is even a gap.
So I think you forgot to mention the other 16 foreigners that were seeded. What about them? Weren't they treated like kings? Where were they in the top 3? And your Thorzain argument is total BS. Why was July still able to go 4-1 in his group after jetlag and going through the open bracket. Way to downplay someone's achievements
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Excellent article, Well written, with some great thoughts.
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If anything I think "foreigners" had a good showing at MLG even if I had hoped that there would only be 1 korean player in the finals. I'm not surprised though, its obvious that while the Korean scene has fewer players overall they do have the opportunity to give it their all - and they take it.
Look at most of the up and coming players in the western scene. They still have normal jobs on the side because there is no other way to put food on the table. If we had established pro houses in the west I feel like things would be different. The Stockholm house with HayprO, Sjow, TLO, Bischu and MorroW is a good start but thats still just a bunch of players banding together and largely paying the rent out of their own pocket. For things to change we need organizations that take the next step: Provide players with free housing, food and pocket change so that they can focus on what they do best, play and improve at the game. In some way I think the west lacks coaches more than it lacks players.
In short, if anything I think that the matches we saw during MLG showed that the difference between Korea and the rest of the world is smaller than what we might have expected. If Idra had not quit early and Naniwa had scouted the Dark Templars earlier or if MLG had finally removed the extended series - would we even be having a discussion framed in this way? Would it have been turned on its head with people proclaiming that White dudes own Koreans?
No matter what happens I am definately looking forward to the next MLG and Dreamhack in particular.
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Great read. Interesting point with the PC and consoles being connected. Is the PC really dying? People have been saying it for some time but I don't think PC will ever die. It simply has more options in terms of versatility and power capabilities. I guess most people just want something simple and more affordable.
On another note, I'm very excited to see e-sports grow. The crowd at MLG made the event so much more exciting. I sincerely hope the Americans step up their game (Idra's early quitting), or that some miracle player emerges.
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On June 09 2011 03:32 Wihl wrote:
If anything I think "foreigners" had a good showing at MLG even if I had hoped that there would only be 1 korean player in the finals. I'm not surprised though, its obvious that while the Korean scene has fewer players overall they do have the opportunity to give it their all - and they take it.
Look at most of the up and coming players in the western scene. They still have normal jobs on the side because there is no other way to put food on the table. If we had established pro houses in the west I feel like things would be different. The Stockholm house with HayprO, Sjow, TLO, Bischu and MorroW is a good start but thats still just a bunch of players banding together and largely paying the rent out of their own pocket. For things to change we need organizations that take the next step: Provide players with free housing, food and pocket change so that they can focus on what they do best, play and improve at the game. In some way I think the west lacks coaches more than it lacks players.
In short, if anything I think that the matches we saw during MLG showed that the difference between Korea and the rest of the world is smaller than what we might have expected. If Idra had not quit early and Naniwa had scouted the Dark Templars earlier or if MLG had finally removed the extended series - would we even be having a discussion framed in this way? Would it have been turned on its head with people proclaiming that White dudes own Koreans?
No matter what happens I am definately looking forward to the next MLG and Dreamhack in particular.
Read my post on this page about Naniwa, he scouted the DT shrine like one second after his zealots started dancing.
Unless you're talking about him actually scouting it like way earlier which is like saying "if only that player scouted banshees he would've won." But I don't think that's what you were trying to say
Up and coming players have side jobs because they're not willing to take the risk that Koreans took and made progaming their career.
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It seems unfair to broadly compare Koreans to Foreigners based on this tournament.
Anybody notice that MC, MMA and Losira are all REALLY freaking good? It's not just 3 random Korean players.
To me, it isn't a matter of "Koreans practice 10 hours/day and foreigners don't and that is why they are better". It is a matter of "there are a far higher total number of Koreans practicing in team houses than the total number of foreigners practicing in team houses". To me, that is what it is all about. You just can't get to that top top level without lots of interaction between other very very good players on a very regular basis.
In my mind, the primary reasons Koreans generally have done better at these international events overall, is that there is a much larger "pool" of players who are currently practicing in a team house, or who have lots of experience being in a BW pro house.
I don't see any other differences besides there just being far more Korean players who get the opportunity to be in an environment surrounded by teammates that fosters the best learning and skill improvement.
I have a hard time believing many of these posts that say so many foreigners practice so sparingly. I'd love to know the actual, accurate numbers. I don't think it is about total practice time. I think it is about how many Koreans have the opportunity to play and practice with teammates, in person, on a constant basis. There is a huge amount of Koreans who get that opportunity compared to foreigners and this is why they are able to improve faster than we can.
When you look at the amount of foreigners who have had a good amount of time in a team house, a good percentage of them(compared to how many Koreans are in team houses) have had solid GSL success.
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its so refreshing to see such a great post on TL
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great post!
its true too! we can do it and we are starting to show it!
I hope to see FXO representing in the gstl, as weak as some of their players may be comparatively, there is no doubt that the environment will be beneficial to them.
This is going to be a big season in in gsl/gstl with the three placements in code A all the people trying out in the open brackets and huk and jinro still fighting. not to mention a foreign team in the gstl.
The more we merge the more we will be able to keep up.
Hopefully we can learn their habits and training methods and improve ourselves accordingly.
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On June 08 2011 12:48 Golgotha wrote:
But I see no reason at all to be "afraid" or worry about the fierce competition the Koreans bring.
I would have some hesitations and I think a lot the people involved should too.
If Koreans start to dominate NA tournaments, and EU ones for that matter, I suspect you will see a drop in the viewers from those regions. As much as people enjoy seeing a really good player, they relate a lot more to the western players. And if those players start consistently getting stuck outside the top 10, a lot of the casual vievers will be lost. And when viewers leave, so does sponsors.
There is only a small overlap between determining who is the best in the world and getting as good as them - and developing the scene. Of that I am afraid and worried. Not of the Koreans.
Thats not to say that there should be a complete regional separation. But if I were involved in the decisions on how to coorporate with the Korean scene, I would hold back a little on the "WE NEED MOAR KOREANS!!".
People would tire of football AND Barcelona if they participated and dominated in every tournament there is.
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EPT
