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On June 09 2011 03:09 rareh wrote:
If mlg didn't have the stupid rule that map wins carry from group to brackets thorzain would have won MC.
As much as I think the extended series is the brainfart of a simple mind, thats not a completely valid conclusion.
Because MCs play would, perhaps, be influenced by the fact that he COULD afford to lose those games. Its not logically sound to conclude that given a 0-0 start to that series that it would have gone 2-1 for ThorZaIN. The mindset for both players would have been different.
But I think he _could_ have done it. Winning 4-1 or better - not so much.
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wow, i don't know what to say but that was a very analytical article and what you said at teh end was very true- unless you compete with the best- you will be left behind.
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Pro Gamer not Programmer
Please google the words, OP (How do you typo in separate places in one word anyway?). This has been pointed out for several pages already yet it's still not fixed.
Good write up by the way.
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"Artosis has gone on record saying that he does not believe E-Sports will ever be as big in NA as it is in Korea."
I think what Artosis said was that esports will never become as socially accepted in NA as it is in Korea. There are other ways to compare how "big" esports are, such as revenue and viewership numbers which he was not referring to.
I also have yet to see all these reports about the death of competitive gaming on the PC. The vast majority of all esports tournaments are for PC games.
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On June 09 2011 02:28 Popss wrote:
Still feel many foreigners seem unwilling to make the sacrifices necessary to really make it as a progamer.
As much respect as I have for BW progamers for example I would never want to live that lifestyle myself, regardless of how much money and fame it gave me.
Yep. It's not an issue of skill. It's an issue of attitude. Too many people don't think of their gaming career as a job it seems (to me at least). I would never want to do that, because I have an education, want a respectable salary and honestly I don't enjoy gaming enough to play it non-stop.
But if you want to be a progamer, they are a few things people need to learn that too many of them don't seem to understand : It's still a job. I know being a pro gamer doesn't usually attract the greatest minds in the world, but I would think they are still intelligent enough to understand what they are getting into. If you want to be successful, you need to put effort into it, like anything else. Even McDonalds will fire you if you are a useless fuck that only shows up half the time. Think of practice the same way.
I know a lot of gamers make their money from things other than tournaments, and a few are semi-successful (I'm not sure how much say IdrA or incontrol make but maybe 40-50k a year sounds realistic; could be way off but the point is that there aren't many succesful people involved in the foreign scene, and most of them aren't players) but a lot of them aren't even making minimum wage. Yet they still seemingly don't take anything seriously. I feel a lot of people are attracted to the idea of becoming a pro gamer because they have little to no ambitions and feel it's an easy way to make some cash while playing a game without needing a huge effort (not everyone, but too many of them in my eyes). We can see the result clearly in this difference in attitude vs the korean scene.
I can respect someone that truly wants to be a pro gamer and gives it his all, even if he doesn't succeed. However, I can't respect someone that does nothing with their life, plays the game they call their job 20-25 hours a week half-seriously and then go to tournaments to party, yet bitch when serious players are invited and take the winnings. Did you see any of the Koreans fucking around at MLG? I'm not saying "no fun and games allowed", but they all seemed to have a great time despite taking the tournament very seriously.
To me, it feels like a lot of players take tournaments as a party instead of a tournament because they get to meet up with their online friends. People may not agree, but tournaments are THE time to cut everything else and focus 100% on the game. You'll have time when you're eliminated or after you've won to socialize. It is not the time to get drunk after day1 or day2 when you still have matches the next day or stealing some dude's slutty girlfriend (lol), then showing up late or at the last second to your match.
They have the rest of the year to do whatever they want. Practicing 8-10 hours a day still allows for a social life with no problems. It's actually less time dedication than a 9-5 job in theory because of no travel time and no 1 hour lunch break, plus you can break up your day however you want... and not everyone practices that much. There is no set amount of practice time needed to be successful, but I think it's safe to say more than 8-10 hours a day is not going to help much because you will start to become mentally exhausted if you do it on a daily basis.
An after party is one thing and fine, but during the event, focus. Overall, MLG Columbus was very fun to watch but it is not because of the foreign scene unfortunately. And I DO want the foreigners to win (well, most of them), but I also want entertaining matches and people that don't take their job seriously, unfortunately, don't bring a good product to the table.
Sorry for that little rant but it's been bugging me for a while. The foreign scene will only grow when the players become more mature. As it is, you can't expect any massive improvements. The people that do show ambition in what they do (Incontrol, IdrA, koreans in general, etc etc) are the only ones that will be successful
Some players have taken steps to improve recently (team sixjax for example has improved a lot recently with Artosis' advice IMO and I expect a lot from them; the team house in sweden, the EG house, etc). On the other hand, they are the minority. The majority of pro gamers outside of korea don't have the ambition needed, from what I've seen. That is not to say all korean pros are amazing people. They have their fair share of people that just don't want to do anything with their lives so they chose pro gamer as an "easy" route because it sounded fun as well.
If we want a scene comparable to korea, we need the majority to take it seriously.
(TLDR : I know this is generalizing but overall I don't feel I've said anything too far out there; Players need to approach pro gaming as a job if they want to be successful. Too many people don't, and they would probably be fired from McDonalds if they showed the same work ethic there).
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Nice article, very pleasent to read. I agree with all of it, just a little remark on the following:
On June 08 2011 12:28 deadjawa wrote:In order to develop similar institutions in North America a sustainable tournament circuit needs to be developed.
I just wanted to remind people, that, in the very beginnings of starcraft 2, during the beta before the game was even officially released, great people, whose dedication for the game as a sport far surpasses even my imagination, took on a debt just to persue their dreams of forming a successful starcraft 2 team and helping starcraft 2 to break through as a competitive sport.
Now, I am not that long into starcraft that I know how the beginnings of Broodwar were, but I can vaguely recall somebody saying that players banded together and, without any financial support, decided to jump and trained hard to become good at this game (which was not known as a full-fledged sport back then).
On the non-Korean side, I hear things like:
- not going to Code A, too hard a competition, too little money,
passing on easier money in western tournaments
- excluding or at least heavily limiting Korean numbers in non-Korean tournaments
(IGN Proleague, Taiwanese League being the most prominent examples)
- switching teams because you think that, because you put time into the game,
you should be rewarded financially despite having no results yet (sixjaxMajor)
- quitting games in leagues just because you have no chance,
worse, even making your opponent on the other side of the world wait all night (Painuser)
Now, not all players are thinking like that, and I have been selfish more than enough times,
that I won't judge players who think like that.
But what I want to say is: Do not think it is unfair that Korea has the better practice enviroment for gamers, they earned it!
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I find interesting that Idra is considered a "foreigner". He spend a large part of his professional career in Korea. I would expect that this will have shaped his play and especially his training habits quite a bit. I don't mean this negative in any way. It just further shows in my opinion that the problem is not "genetic" but mainly related to training.
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Nice spotlight. Very interesting take on this, and I agree! The scene can and will improve after this! Loved MLG Columbus, too 
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I love this writeup, excellent points made all the way through.
MLG Columbus was a fantastic event, BECAUSE there were top talent from all across the world present. The koreans are still very strong, that is exactly why their participation is so important for foreign competitions.
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I just wanted to add that while I do believe Koreans are above the rest, it also just happened that MC had the chance to go against Thorzain, Naniwa and Idra to knock them out, and of course MC is considered by many to be the best player in the world.
Of course we got to see matches like IdrA vs MMA and Naniwa vs Moon in the brackets, but the point I am getting at is the brackets seemed to have quite a big impact on the results. Thorzain didn't get to go against any other Koreans other than MC (correct me if I'm wrong) and Moon, July and MC were all in a row.
So yes, the Koreans were each knocked out by other Koreans, but I think we didn't get the opportunity to see how a player like Naniwa would stack up against Losira or how Thorzain would do against MMA. Once again, I do feel Koreans are clearly the stronger competitors, but I am simply bringing up that the brackets played a large role in the results, such as many strong foreigners getting knocked out, and Koreans knocking each other out.
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nice article with some good points. Maybe esports will get as big in NA as in korea, though it still has some ways to go. Indeed the future is looking bright though.
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Good read man! hope esports will continue to get stronger not only in NA but in EU aswell.
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On June 09 2011 03:16 awu25 wrote:
So I think you forgot to mention the other 16 foreigners that were seeded. What about them? Weren't they treated like kings? Where were they in the top 3? And your Thorzain argument is total BS. Why was July still able to go 4-1 in his group after jetlag and going through the open bracket. Way to downplay someone's achievements
The foreigners earned their place by playing in the openbracket in previous mlgs.
July was eliminated in the same place in the bracket as thorzain .
Remember koreans prac 24/7 so they cope with being burned out better.
On sunday thorzain won more sets, yet on previous days july did, in fact july didn't win a single map on sunday, that alone says everything, besides thorzain got eliminated in a extended series in which he had a disadvantage(if this were a normal best of 3 like all the non-extended games, thorzain would have passed, because he won 2 of the first 3 maps played), july got eliminated in a normal bo3 where both were playing in equal grounds, so the situations were different.
I take nothing from july he was a great bw and is a great sc2 player and i respect him, he did it the right way, went through openbracket and got where he got.
MC, mma, losira and moon, got a place in pools they didn't work for, who knows how it would go if thorzain, morrow or other players went directly into the pools.
Fact is the only korean that played fair(went through openbracket) didn't reach that far, imagine if all koreans went through the openbracket like everyone has to at some point, to get a good seeding instead of having a unfair advantage.
I have nothing against the koreans, but i think everyone should work to deserve something.
People have to work to qualify for the gsl and same should be for mlg pools.
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On June 09 2011 06:18 Chicane wrote:
I just wanted to add that while I do believe Koreans are above the rest, it also just happened that MC had the chance to go against Thorzain, Naniwa and Idra to knock them out, and of course MC is considered by many to be the best player in the world.
Of course we got to see matches like IdrA vs MMA and Naniwa vs Moon in the brackets, but the point I am getting at is the brackets seemed to have quite a big impact on the results. Thorzain didn't get to go against any other Koreans other than MC (correct me if I'm wrong) and Moon, July and MC were all in a row.
So yes, the Koreans were each knocked out by other Koreans, but I think we didn't get the opportunity to see how a player like Naniwa would stack up against Losira or how Thorzain would do against MMA. Once again, I do feel Koreans are clearly the stronger competitors, but I am simply bringing up that the brackets played a large role in the results, such as many strong foreigners getting knocked out, and Koreans knocking each other out.
Naniwa lost 2-0 to Losira. It was commentated.
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On June 09 2011 06:54 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 06:18 Chicane wrote:
I just wanted to add that while I do believe Koreans are above the rest, it also just happened that MC had the chance to go against Thorzain, Naniwa and Idra to knock them out, and of course MC is considered by many to be the best player in the world.
Of course we got to see matches like IdrA vs MMA and Naniwa vs Moon in the brackets, but the point I am getting at is the brackets seemed to have quite a big impact on the results. Thorzain didn't get to go against any other Koreans other than MC (correct me if I'm wrong) and Moon, July and MC were all in a row.
So yes, the Koreans were each knocked out by other Koreans, but I think we didn't get the opportunity to see how a player like Naniwa would stack up against Losira or how Thorzain would do against MMA. Once again, I do feel Koreans are clearly the stronger competitors, but I am simply bringing up that the brackets played a large role in the results, such as many strong foreigners getting knocked out, and Koreans knocking each other out. Naniwa lost 2-0 to Losira. It was commentated.
And it wasn't much of a fight. Naniwa got beat pretty decisively.
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On June 09 2011 06:48 rareh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 03:16 awu25 wrote:
So I think you forgot to mention the other 16 foreigners that were seeded. What about them? Weren't they treated like kings? Where were they in the top 3? And your Thorzain argument is total BS. Why was July still able to go 4-1 in his group after jetlag and going through the open bracket. Way to downplay someone's achievements
The foreigners earned their place by playing in the openbracket in previous mlgs. July was eliminated in the same place in the bracket as thorzain . Remember koreans prac 24/7 so they cope with being burned out better. On sunday thorzain won more sets, yet on previous days july did, in fact july didn't win a single map on sunday, that alone says everything, besides thorzain got eliminated in a extended series in which he had a disadvantage(if this were a normal best of 3 like all the non-extended games, thorzain would have passed, because he won 2 of the first 3 maps played), july got eliminated in a normal bo3 where both were playing in equal grounds, so the situations were different. I take nothing from july he was a great bw and is a great sc2 player and i respect him, he did it the right way, went through openbracket and got where he got. MC, mma, losira and moon, got a place in pools they didn't work for, who knows how it would go if thorzain, morrow or other players went directly into the pools. Fact is the only korean that played fair(went through openbracket) didn't reach that far, imagine if all koreans went through the openbracket like everyone has to at some point, to get a good seeding instead of having a unfair advantage. I have nothing against the koreans, but i think everyone should work to deserve something. People have to work to qualify for the gsl and same should be for mlg pools.
That was the deal between MLG, good performing GSL players go to MLG and get a high seed and good performing MLG players go to the GSL and get a high seed, so there's nothing unfair about it. Besides, I think that the Koreans who went to the MLG worked hard enough (not just around 3 hours a day like Idra, gosh I hope he can catch himself, good thing that he is so ridiculously talented), don't you think so too?
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Very good write up, looks like we have a future TL writer in the making??? :D
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On June 09 2011 06:48 rareh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 03:16 awu25 wrote:
So I think you forgot to mention the other 16 foreigners that were seeded. What about them? Weren't they treated like kings? Where were they in the top 3? And your Thorzain argument is total BS. Why was July still able to go 4-1 in his group after jetlag and going through the open bracket. Way to downplay someone's achievements
The foreigners earned their place by playing in the openbracket in previous mlgs. July was eliminated in the same place in the bracket as thorzain . Remember koreans prac 24/7 so they cope with being burned out better. On sunday thorzain won more sets, yet on previous days july did, in fact july didn't win a single map on sunday, that alone says everything, besides thorzain got eliminated in a extended series in which he had a disadvantage (if this were a normal best of 3 like all the non-extended games, thorzain would have passed, because he won 2 of the first 3 maps played), july got eliminated in a normal bo3 where both were playing in equal grounds, so the situations were different. I take nothing from july he was a great bw and is a great sc2 player and i respect him, he did it the right way, went through openbracket and got where he got. MC, mma, losira and moon, got a place in pools they didn't work for, who knows how it would go if thorzain, morrow or other players went directly into the pools. Fact is the only korean that played fair(went through openbracket) didn't reach that far, imagine if all koreans went through the openbracket like everyone has to at some point, to get a good seeding instead of having a unfair advantage. I have nothing against the koreans, but i think everyone should work to deserve something. People have to work to qualify for the gsl and same should be for mlg pools.
Not to take anything away from Thorz who I love, and I can't say this for sure, but I'm positive that the series extension changed how both players approached the MU. Not mentally necessarily, but at least strategically.
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First, MLG deserves so much credit for putting on the most impressive SC2 spectacle that we've had to date. It was electric! This single event has stoked if not resurrected the optimism about just how just how huge SC2 could get in NA and EU.
Secondly, a huge thanks to the South Korean pros. They were a prerequisite to the drama and energy at Columbus.
Third, I think the foreign scene has proven that they have the players who can compete right at the top and have the potential to win it all.
Columbus was so impressive that support for the pro-scene is bound to get a big boost. Foreign pro-players will get the funding they need to train as hard as they want. Then everything is just going to explode! 
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19 posts in and already writing like a front pager!
great article, certainly hope the 'foreigners' can build on the results of Columbus for Anaheim, Dreamhack, etc!
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EPT
