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On June 01 2011 03:25 teekesselchen wrote:
3) New Units:
-Arbiters instead of mothership, because it was an awesome casting unit
-Marauders removed or replaced by a fire-bat like unit
-Hellion revamped, because it's a stupid unit right now. It can roast a players whole economy in seconds making millions of players rage every day, but has few uses otherwise. I'ld love seeing spider mines return, on bigger maps at least.
-Lurkers. Positional play for Zerg is totally missing and badly required.
-Thor beeing made smaller, cheaper, weaker again. The concept of hero units failed. They have so few tactical value that I don't even really want to mind control them, even though they are so expansive. I'd rather take a couple of siege tanks.
-Colossus beeing switched back to Transporter+Reaver. I don't think a unit should be as strong as colossus when just beeing a-clicked into the opponent (only exeption: Utralisks, because Zerg mechanics work differently). I always saw Protoss as a race that should have to micro a lot but be rewarded for it, too. Reaver-Shuttle provides that. Colossus does not nearly as much.
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Every single one of these choices, and i mean EVERY SINGLE ONE are make this exactly like brood war. While I do agree that many of these need adjustments, just saying let's go back to brood war isn't much of a solution.
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On June 01 2011 03:11 SoapSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 02:02 Crawler wrote:
Top 3 most uninteresting units in my opinion are:
1. Corruptor
2. Overseer
3. Colossus
(tbh I like every single unit in sc2 and bw but if you really want 3 units then maybe these are a bit less interesting and could use some changes)
Remove:
1) Marauder slow
2) Sentry ff
3) Infestor fungal
2) Sentry ff ? Why not remove sentry from the game then? These units are made to disable enemy micro and i guess they are pretty balanced.
That's why I want all these 3 abilities to be removed. Adding a low tech slow/immobilize spell to each race was clearly a mistake when they already made mechanics so much easier. I don't understand why did they remove ability to micro.
BW zerg queens had only a slow for such high tier unit and arbiters pretty much had 2-3 target vortex that mothership has and also the ghost lockdown was pretty high tech and still worse that sc2 stuns/slows.
You probably misunderstood what this thread is about. My idea wasn't just removing these 3 spells and calling it a day. They obviously have to balance other parts of the game after making these changes.
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- What 3 units in the game need to go into the redesign list?
a) Mothership (needs to be a lot more durable considering its use/cost/time investment)
b) Warp prism (perhaps not the unit itself, but moving the speed upgrade to somewhere else, maybe the cyber core with a robo facility requirement)
c) Reaper (has absolutely no use besides maybe getting one for early game scouting. A marauder drop is better for sniping tech, and BFHs are better for dealing with zealots)
- What mechanics do you find needing tweaks? or badly designed.
a) The fact that units clump when moved
b) Perhaps forcefields once made could be target-able structures, where if you force your units to attack the forcefield it will shatter sooner than the fifteen seconds (100 hp?). Massive units would still break them automatically
- What type of new units/buildings would you like to see?
a) Some kind of building that helps the creep mechanic, perhaps one where you can spawn a new tumour (as if dropped by a queen) anywhere that there is already creep, perhaps for a small mineral/gas cost (25/25?) or an energy cost. Like a nydus worm for tumours
b) A building that has a slow permanent shield restore boost (I think its called shield battery? Can't remember). Requires pylon power to build and operate. All units within its area of affect regains shields 50% faster (or similar)
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Put the Immortal as a gateway unit and remove warpgate tech, why not?
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Most Boring Units:
1 - Colossus
2 - Thor
3 - Marauder/Roach/Immortal (but mainly Marauder)
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I disagree with people asking for the removal of FF and fungal. They don't remove micro because the force an opponent to micro against them. Flanks from 3 sides > forcefield, and so does burrow. Spreading units can prevent cost effective fungals.
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What three units need redesign?
Collosus by far
Hydralisk close second
Reaper at a third spot
What mechanics do you think need tweaking?
Warp in, warp gate.
Misc Tweaks?
Something in the early game to be able to break forcefields on ramps for zerg.
What new unit types?
Stronger armoured GtA unit for terran
A true harrassment unit for protoss
If collosus will be removed, tier 3 caster for zerg, ifnot, hivetech AtA unit for Z
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On June 01 2011 03:34 Qaz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 03:25 teekesselchen wrote:
3) New Units:
-Arbiters instead of mothership, because it was an awesome casting unit
-Marauders removed or replaced by a fire-bat like unit
-Hellion revamped, because it's a stupid unit right now. It can roast a players whole economy in seconds making millions of players rage every day, but has few uses otherwise. I'ld love seeing spider mines return, on bigger maps at least.
-Lurkers. Positional play for Zerg is totally missing and badly required.
-Thor beeing made smaller, cheaper, weaker again. The concept of hero units failed. They have so few tactical value that I don't even really want to mind control them, even though they are so expansive. I'd rather take a couple of siege tanks.
-Colossus beeing switched back to Transporter+Reaver. I don't think a unit should be as strong as colossus when just beeing a-clicked into the opponent (only exeption: Utralisks, because Zerg mechanics work differently). I always saw Protoss as a race that should have to micro a lot but be rewarded for it, too. Reaver-Shuttle provides that. Colossus does not nearly as much.
. Every single one of these choices, and i mean EVERY SINGLE ONE are make this exactly like brood war. While I do agree that many of these need adjustments, just saying let's go back to brood war isn't much of a solution.
I disagree, SC2 would actually be fun to watch if they modeled it after BW, and then made tweaks/added stuff based on that solid foundation.
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I know it becomes repetitive to say colossus are root of all problems when it comes to Protoss, but it's true. The main issue is the Protoss reliance on the death ball and the Colossus solidifies that. It seems T and Z have more mobility options as far as drops and harass and Protoss only seem to have one goal through most of the game which is to keep their ball together with Colossus otherwise they're screwed. The unit needs a complete redesign or removal.
Some units that need serious help:
-Colossus - Cool unit design, but uninteresting use, redesign mechanically or just take it out!
-Mothership - needs to be an awesome support unit, not just a gimmick
-Carriers - They may be strong but are hurt by hard counters too easily for such a higher tiered unit
Corrupters, Hydras, Marauders, and Thors I think need some fixing too. I won't speak too much to this because I mostly play Toss.
A Couple more notes:
-I'd like Battlecruisers and Carriers to be more feared units, almost like the Broodlords are now.
-Bring back dynamic unit movement or at least a variation of it to break up these unit balls, armies don't look right in giant balls
-More emphasis on micro skill, would make pro level play much more fun to watch
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-Slowdown macro mechanic/income per base because like othey people say, you can max too fast and you don't need more than 3 basis to afford everything.
-Introduce a system of aim/dodging for the casters to make them fun/balance with smart casting because atm they are too powerfull and too easy to use, you can't micro against casters (fungal/ff for example).
-No more a-move boring unit like colossi, fail unit is fail. Colossus=siege tank without siege mode+cliffwalk+insane speed, it require nothing special to be use efficiently, no positionning, no cute micro, no caution.
-Interesting dynamic battles between races (and even in mirror matches), battles has to be like a symphony with a lot of different units/micro/positionning like bw.
I hope Blizzard will listen to the feedback from the community.
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Imo, colossus could be instantly fixed by making them about half as fast, maybe slower, giving them another 30% damage vs light(1 shot marines/zerglings, 2 or 3 shot lots depending on upgrades), and making them cost another 50-100 gas. Make them a serious damage dealer that must be babied and protected, not a doom dealer than just laughs at anything ground based. As of right now, there is no down side to colossus...they are fast, they cliff walk, they are decently tanky, they do stacked AoE damage, and they are viable vs anything not mass air. Going colossus should be a conscious decision you make based on your opponent's build or a timing you are trying to hit, not something you must be forced out of by your opponent every game.
Perfect example of why Sc2 is getting boring is team games(for me). I play random. I have 3 builds.
T: 2 rax into hellion/thor, continue to pump marines. Safe vs any average early pressure, end game is simple 1a time, and scales incredibly well. Works fairly well vs pretty much anything.
P: Blink Stalkers + colossi. Add phoenix towards late game in case of fighting vs carriers or BL. Safe vs ground and air, all game. Nothing else you need to do. No gameplanning or scouting needed. Just mass and 1a. Sure, you can maximize effectiveness with some blink usage, and by including chargelots, but it's not necessary.
Z: Only slightly more complicated. Zergling/baneling into mass air. Again, scales just fine most of the time, and will do decently well vs almost anything. Some scouting is needed though, as some ludicrous compositions like mass marines will necessitate some infestors. But zerg is definitely the most volatile matchup, and, imo, the most fun to play and watch.
These 3 builds pretty much keep me at the top of the scoreboard most games. And I'm not even good.
This shouldn't be possible. There shouldn't be 1 simple build you can pretty much do every game, regardless of your opponent's tech path, and be perfectly fine. I challenge any of you to create an army that will wreck any of the compositions I mentioned with ease. Aka, you know what I'm doing in advance....exactly. If the game is a dynamic and interesting as it should be, then you should be able to customize a build that will wreck my composition assuming equal skill.
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- What 3 units in the game need to go into the redesign list?
corruptor
colossus
hydralisk
- What mechanics do you find needing tweaks? or badly designed.
all mechanics that prevent micro like force fields, fungal growth and concussive shells, i don't suggest they get removed but at least changed to have micro on both sides of the battle.
balance inject vs mule / cronobost to require same amount of attention or lack of.
Less clumping up of units.
Make early cheese / rush more risky for the player attacking, aka defenders should gave advantages.
- What graphic/misc tweaks do you want to see?
more tile-sets on official bnet ladder maps used.
- What type of new units/buildings would you like to see?
some early harass zerg unit and position-defensive unit like lurker
more useful and interesting warp prism combos
LESS A-MOVE BALLS! let micro have a meaning in battle, not just preemptive spreading and positioning, etc.
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I think instead of removing every unit that's powerful, Blizzard should tweak or remove the weak ones. Most units in BW were extremely powerful in certain situations.
Zerglings were the cheapest units in the game and once they were fully upgraded had some of the highest dps. Vultures were dirt cheap and came with 3 spider mines. A reaver could annihilate a worker line with a single shot. Dark swarm was, in theory, disgustingly imbalanced in ZvT, but somehow BW was balanced.
Sentry force fields are amazing. Hellions are cheap and can end the game in a few seconds. Colossus is an extremely powerful unit. Instead of nerfing them, why not bring other units up to their level?
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Corruptor is terrible.
I'm trying to think of another race that has units like the Corruptor where it's almost entirely useless and a total supply-sink after it has performed it's task. The Corruption spell is nearly useless, the increase in dps it provides is paltry and doesn't really make up for the fact that the unit itself floats around doing nothing after it is used.
For 150/100 it's a real kick in the arse to see a whack of those floating around watching the enemy rip apart your dwindling army that you simply can't reinforce because your OLs are stuck supplying happy Zerg vibes to floating octopi.
As for mechanics, I notice that Zerglings are pretty bad at running around in circles trying to get to targets they're blocked from (blocked by their own kind) rather than acquiring a nearby target or structure like they did in BW.
It's not a big deal, I guess, and it's rectified by giving multiple commands but it just seemed that BW Zerglings were "smarter."
And totally on a personal note, I'd put Siege Tank damage to the levels it was in the beta and reduce the rate of fire for Marines. I'd also be inclined to tweak Forcefiled because that is a seriously crippling spell; but I fear the way Protoss was designed makes that nigh impossible. That's a tricky one for sure.
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On June 01 2011 02:13 vindKtiv wrote:
It seems as if the community is really divided on this issue. I'm very interested to see what Blizzard implements, and how the fans will react (though knowing the internet, I expect nothing less than a shitstorm).
I personally also vote for the Colossi, though I'm honestly fine with the game as it is. I like the Hellion, I like the Mothership (you need to have the Scout of SC2 don't you?), I like the Overseer (despite that unit being explicitly called out as an uninteresting unit), and I like the Marauder. While I absolutely love the reaper, I would say that unit needs to go, as it is useless in 1v1, but needs to stay useless or else 2v2 would become imbalanced. Maybe units like the Void Ray and Banshee that are ridiculously useful AtG and can even win games just by appearing.
I would like the reapers damage to be changed, I think the unit is fairly expensive and fragile but it auto loses to a stalker and can absolutely wreck a mineral line. If the unit was given a good option for fighting armored or at least non-light units, maybe be a spell that is fairly cheap on energy but obv is limited. So if you have really good micro you can possibly take out a stalker but 9/10 times the stalker will just shoot you 4x.......
I also think that the reapers design should be one given to all 3 races. Recently LiquidTyler said that protoss is missing a unit that you can micro while you are macroing and moving your main army and I agree. Along with those lines I would say that zerg doesn't have a unit that can jump cliffs and that would be sweet to have.
The colossi.... I doubt that more than 20% of the community actually enjoys the colossi, maybe even less. While some view it as a needed unit in the protoss army, in general it seems to be a unit that is so powerful that it makes up for the weakness of the rest of the protoss units. that's bad design in multiple ways.
The overlord/overseer.... in bw the overlord had detection and in WoL that ability (and some others) have been given to the overseer, the problem with the overseer is it costs way too much gas for what it does. 150min/100g for a unit that most likely going to die on it's 1 scouting trip, and will maybe contaminate 1 building (albeit for 30 secs, this ability has potential but not when Z is already gas starved)... is a tough sell, so tough that it doesn't sell -_-
Ultralisk- this unit is just too big, it's pathing is laughable and its supply count is extremely heavy. I would like to see this unit be 4 supply and smaller.
Stalker- the most expensive t1.5 bulk of army type unit (marauder, roach and stalker are all similar models) it has a slow attack speed and becomes weaker the longer the game goes. I would like to see this unit get a buff to it's upgrades. w/out testing I would say +1 (+1 to armored) so it would get +2 atk vs armored units.
Hydra- 1f, back to tier 1, 7 dmg, 75/25 cost, remove "light", 2.25 movement speed with an upgrade that gives it +.75 movement speed and ofc it's +1 range upgrade. This would do a lot for Z and it would make buffing other parts of T/P more reasonable. With having a tier 1 anti air (like it had in bw) a lot of cheese strats would become less powerful. They wouldn't necessarily make VR's and Banshee's obsolete, but it would reward scouting and players using build orders that weren't reliant on opponents lack of early game aa.
Roach- tier 2, 3f, 150/100 cost and can go either a true tank (something that does crap damage but has high priority and high health/armor) or more along with the lore of the unit, something that is great against light units but loses its luster vs bigger targets. as with all of my proposals, their would have to be a great deal of testing.
Lurker- tier 2, 50/100 morph, upgrade at hydra den, morphed from hydra. Balancing this units stats isn't really something I am prepared to do, I don't have enough data, nor do I have units to compare it to (like the hydra at 7 dmg is in between the marine and the stalker for damage).
baneling- I don't think this unit is conducive with the general welfare of this game, on one hand it is horrendously powerful and can wipe out an entire army in seconds, On the other it is extremely gas heavy and you WILL lose your army to take out theirs. It makes for unfair situation for the zerg and against the zerg. Based on the pics that have been released I doubt that this unit is going anywhere but I wish it would be left in the campaign.
Scourge- if you brought back scourge, the colossi would be nerfed heavily in the PvZ mu, It would make for some interesting builds and I'm not sure if colossi would be possible with it in play. After saying that, bring on the scourge! this was a great unit because it did a couple things very well, for one it limited strats that were too reliant on air, and it gave chance for comebacks through micro on both sides.
science vessels- why did they remove this unit? While this would make ravens almost obsolete, I would rather see sci vessels than ravens any day.
Reavers- I can understand that they didn't bring reavers back because of A. colossi took their spot and B. the unit formation in WoL would make 1 reaver kill like 30 marines... But I still disagree, with proper micro and scouting any person that loses a shitload of marines to the reaver deserve it.
I would like to see something happen with the defiler or at least dark swarm.... Maybe make dark swarm a high upgrade for infesters but don't give them the consume ability.... or test defilers! if they are truely horrendously op then something can be changed about them, but thinking back to bw play, defilers were how you beat tank marine play.
Of course everything that I have mentioned (and everything else for that matter) would have to be tested rigorously, but I think that adding units that require more micro and demand better decision making are important. I namely mentioned Zerg units because this is a zerg expansion, but of course every unit would have to be balanced accordingly.
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As a terran player:
1) Reaper.
Obviously a completely botched design. Too powerful in the early game so it needs to be nerfed there, but it actually doesn't have any use after that. Why would you harass with reapers when hellions/marines in a medivac do a better job? Not to mention that those units actually have uses outside harassment.
The fact that it requires 50 gas and builds forever is the last nail in the coffin.
2) Raven
It annoys me to no end how lackluster the raven is compared to science vessels. Slow, easily killed and the spells it has hardly make a difference after the early timing push. It simply is not effective enough to warrant a tech lab on your starport.
I'm guessing the raven was supposed to supplement a slow push playstyle. Offensive bunkers (I guess thats what the bunker upgrade was for) and turrents with siege tanks. Too bad they shot it in the foot by giving units so much DPS and by giving them the ball mechanic, rendering slow pushing much weaker.
Its a fun unit to mass in team games or FFAs, but mostly a huge waste in competitive games.
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Hope someone from Blizzard read this thread and fixes some of the most relevant flaws.
-For me, there are a lot more than 3 units that should be redesigned, such as:
·Corruptors, Roaches, Infestors (fungal growth is BORING AS HELL), Hydras.
·Void Rays, Colossi, Sentry (ff is pretty much a fungal, but imbalandec, imo), Phoenixes (where's the micro?)
·Banshee, Thor, Raven (PDD is awesome, but HSM...) Marauders in some degree.
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On June 01 2011 03:34 Qaz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 03:25 teekesselchen wrote:
3) New Units:
-Arbiters instead of mothership, because it was an awesome casting unit
-Marauders removed or replaced by a fire-bat like unit
-Hellion revamped, because it's a stupid unit right now. It can roast a players whole economy in seconds making millions of players rage every day, but has few uses otherwise. I'ld love seeing spider mines return, on bigger maps at least.
-Lurkers. Positional play for Zerg is totally missing and badly required.
-Thor beeing made smaller, cheaper, weaker again. The concept of hero units failed. They have so few tactical value that I don't even really want to mind control them, even though they are so expansive. I'd rather take a couple of siege tanks.
-Colossus beeing switched back to Transporter+Reaver. I don't think a unit should be as strong as colossus when just beeing a-clicked into the opponent (only exeption: Utralisks, because Zerg mechanics work differently). I always saw Protoss as a race that should have to micro a lot but be rewarded for it, too. Reaver-Shuttle provides that. Colossus does not nearly as much.
. Every single one of these choices, and i mean EVERY SINGLE ONE are make this exactly like brood war. While I do agree that many of these need adjustments, just saying let's go back to brood war isn't much of a solution.
If the bw solutions are better than WoL then yes they are >.>
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Aparently Jinro thinks the unit that needs to be removed is the collossus:
On June 01 2011 03:48 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 03:42 zawk9 wrote:On June 01 2011 03:36 vol_ wrote:We're going to add some new multiplayer units, and take out some multiplayer units Bye collosus? If only it were true... There is no way to make the game better than to remove that god damn unit - not even balance reasons, its just STUPID. "Oh you had enough vikings and I got RAPED" "Oh you didnt have enough vikings, I lost 0 units"
taken from the HotS thread.
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On June 01 2011 03:39 DeltruS wrote:
I disagree with people asking for the removal of FF and fungal. They don't remove micro because the force an opponent to micro against them. Flanks from 3 sides > forcefield, and so does burrow. Spreading units can prevent cost effective fungals.
Flanks from 3 sides? You need a really great position on tournament custom maps to be able to do that. When protoss is in your base or in his own base then good luck with flanking. Fungal covers like 6-7 stalkers and 2 colossus max so am I supposed to split my 200/200 army to groups of 2-3 units and attack at the same time? Unless you have lonely units walking around it's impossible to be cost effective against fungal. You get hit by it and it's over. No ammount of micro or skill will help you come out of this situation. You can dodge storm but fungal causes damage on every unit (except ultralisk) and it immobilizes you.. It's pretty much a immobilizing storm that causes less damage.
You can run after getting hit by storm or EMP but you can never run after getting hit by fungal. Dark swarm didn't force you to fight either in bw.
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EPT
