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All the mechanics that allows people to get their units out faster, like chrono and inject larva. It's stupid how fast you can max out in sc2. Where's the early and midgame? Around the 15 minute mark (in game time) it's very common to be 200/200 with several thousand resources banked.
The maxed out battles are usually just an a-move anyways, so thats very uninteresting. I always hear people talking about "macro games" and how it supposedly takes more skill. Well, sitting around making workers for the first 10 minutes (yep, you kinda get all the workers you need for the whole game the first 10 minutes) and then just a-moving into eachother isn't very fun to me.
It may sound like I'm hating alot on the game, but I looove the game. I just honestly feel like there needs to be some major changes to make the game more interesting.
When it comes to units, colossus quickly comes to mind. Sadly there aren't alot of options either. High Templars are very risky to get for the first clashes, as just one or two bad storms could lose you the battle. Immortals are pretty uninteresting too. For Terran I'd say marauder and hellion (and large bioballs in general). For Zerg it's definitely the corruptor.
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Top three most uninteresting:
1. The Hydralisk. Reason: No micro possibilities. All ground based micro and
tier 1 goodness is inheritted by the speedy roach. The roach even needs micro because of its low range. I'd like to see a renovation like the dragoon to stalker. The new unit would be under the same role but a different model and a new mechanic.
2. The Ultralisk. Reason: No micro. Usually using the ultra is dependant on your opponent not microing very well, or having to do other things around the map. While the ultra can be useful at times, I think bliz could get a better tier 3 unit. Again, the ultra could easily switch models and gain an ability, just like the dragoon to stalker transition.
3. The Corruptor. Reason: Bland unit with a bland ability. This unit can be salvaged with a creative replacement for the +25% damage ability. For example: blind from SC1, a creep utility spell, or some type of harass.
I think all units need to have graphic design tweaks and better colouring. Banelings and zerglings looks great with team colour, and colour would help both players and spectators.
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The entire Zerg race....
But seriously folks, the most "wtf why would they do this" units in WoL were the Marauder, Roach, Corruptor, Colossus, Overseer, and Hydralisk.
I really, really despised the addition of roaches and marauders, because it in essence destroyed the interesting tier 1 dynamic between the three races in Broodwar by essentially giving every race a dragoon. I feel like Roaches and Marauders are just too good as a generalist unit, and some of their counters are ineffective for a variety of reasons. It weakens the dynamic between races and makes the other tier 1 units (marines vs. protoss, Zerglings in all matchups, banelings vs protoss) feel useless.
The corruptor needs a complete and utter revamp. Not only is it by far one of the worst units in the game at fulfilling its role (it doesn't even counter colossus cost effectively), it's just plain boring as hell. The corruption spell will, at the very most, amount to roughly 10 to 20 extra damage taken for a single unit most of the time. It's expensive as hell gas wise yet can't even "dominate" the air despite having no other uses. Even though devourers were barely used in BW, they were infinitely more creative as a unit and more useful as an air to air solution. They were a support unit that synergized with your other anti air rather than just a unit made for pure damage.
And of course, like everyone else said, the Colossus, since it is a boring 1-a unit that destroys all matchups in the game by being so powerful that everything you and your opponent does has to revolve around it.
The hydralisk and Overseer being bad and cost ineffective isn't anything new. Either move hydras back to tier 1 and turn them back into an anti-armored and anti-air unit or do something extreme with them at tier 2. They can't stay the way they are; they're just dead-weight units that Zergs make only because their other anti-air options are even worse.
But really the core of all problems in Starcraft 2 are centered around the macro-mechanics (and warp-in) and the balance decisions that Blizzard was forced to do in order to shoe-horn those mechanics into the game. Zerg units and zerg armies are terrible late-game because of inject. Protoss gateway units are so awful and so reliant on forcefields because of warp-in. People complain about marines mainly because Mules give terran excess minerals and they can dump it on such an effective unit. I wouldn't mind seeing all the aforementioned mechanics either de-emphasized or moved to tier 2. Plus it'd force more macro games.
Chrono-boost is the only macro mechanic that actually is interesting and seems to add real depth to the game.
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I really think that most of the air units need redesigning to make the game more interesting. Obviously phoenixes, mutalisks, medivacs are fine and MAYBE void rays and battlecruisers are fine too (now that BC's have found a use in TvT).
-Carriers are cool but maybe with a reduced build time they would become more popular?
-Ravens PDD is actually too good in some situations, whereas HSM seems pretty lackluster, autoturrets last for 3 minutes...
-Vikings are pretty much only used as a hardcounter unit and have no real synergy with a Terran army; snipe colossus in TvP, only unit that can effectively kill broodlords, fight for air control in TvT
-Corruptors are like an even more useless version of the viking, only redeeming quality is that they transform into broodlords
-Broodlords should just be made into Guardians. Broodlings make it way to difficult to approach broodlords with any reasonable Terran unit composition. Maybe terran's lack of late game ground to air options is the culprit
I dunno I have a lot more thoughts on this but I'm at work and too lazy to finish lol
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On June 01 2011 02:10 TheDougler wrote:
Useless units:
Overseer
Reaper
Carrier
Uninteresting units:
Colossus
Ultralisk
...There is no terran unit I find uninteresting
while I agree that most terran units are interesting, please explain to me in what way the maruader is interesting.
I would love to hear it.
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Unused units:
Warp Prisms
Carriers
Motherships
Corrupters
Ultralisks
Unused buildings:
Sensor Towers
>Warp prisms are very rarely used, because they cut into Observer/Colossi/Immortal build time. Maybe they should build from Stargate or Nexus instead, or even the Cyber Core itself?
>Carriers should have decreased build time and/or be buffed in some way. They're only viable in team games with mass carriers with the way they are at the moment.
>Motherships aren't useful enough for their cost.
>Corrupters should either be removed completely and Mutalisks given the two "specialized morphs", or Corrupters need to be fixed to actually do something in ZvT or to be useful after killing Colossi in ZvP. Right now, Corrupters as a unit are useless (except vs Colossi), and morphing to BLs are all they're used for.
>Ultralisks are too weak for their cost.
>Sensor Towers should be given to Zerg, and maybe even a PF-esque upgrade for Zerg Lairs/Hives?
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terran: viking- this is a beastly anti air unit that can be amassed two at a time at the starport. late game terran can have 3 of these with reactors making it nearly impossible for other races to use air to any effect. in bw (prolly gonna get flamed for comparison) protoss could surprise terran by switching to carriers. currently if the terran plays his cards right just the threat alone of being able to switch production will prevent protoss from making any air. same goes for zerg. broodlords will get trounced by these range 10 fighters. obviously would require a placement, wraith?
zerg: roach- moreso because it is difficult to remove any of the units, but i feel these bad boys are too easily massed by themselves and do a ton of damage for the amount they cost. in a zerg 300 food push the ability to stream powerful roaches quickly in to an enemies base makes it difficult to recover.
protoss: removing a protoss unit makes is difficult in the sense that you will make one build less viable than the others. currently protoss can unlock the templar, robotics, or stargate but doing too many of these too quickly will kill you. if you remove high templar then protoss is more likely to go colossus and vice versa. still the colossus makes it difficult in that its a huge investment and more than likely forces air from the other races. air makes stargates less viable and therefore i would probably have the colossus tweaked even though it's a core unit of mine when playing protoss :/
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On June 01 2011 03:16 Dystisis wrote:
If I were to do one thing, it would be this:
Colossus:
Instead of the instant AoE laser attack that it does now, change its attack into something "similar" to the Reaver attack from BW, where it shoots a missile which deals high splash damage. This orb (think something similar to a photon cannon missile) would be fired at the *position* of units, instead of the units itself (ie. not like a photon cannon, where the missile follows the target and hits no matter what) and move somewhat slower than a photon cannon orb.
This opens up the possibility for enemy players to micro away from the attacks of the Colossus, although it should be hard.
Additionally, it should open up for Colossus harass/drop-micro being viable.
that's a fantastic idea imo.
you could make an animation for the colossus in which it charges up to fire the beam / cannon / laser whatever. you have to manually order a colossus to attack in a certain area for instance.
no smart-casting, you would have to do each one individually.
maybe make it even so that it displays a mark like the nuke for the enemy so that he
can dodge it with micro.
would be hella fun to use / micro against.
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Collosus - never liked them as a P player, was just a more boring version of siege tank.
Mothership - not much to say here, except as a gimmic it is largely useless.
Corruptor - only really used vs collosus/stalker mixes, and if protoss goes carrier or terran goes BCs.
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On June 01 2011 03:23 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 03:16 Dystisis wrote:
If I were to do one thing, it would be this:
Colossus:
Instead of the instant AoE laser attack that it does now, change its attack into something "similar" to the Reaver attack from BW, where it shoots a missile which deals high splash damage. This orb (think something similar to a photon cannon missile) would be fired at the *position* of units, instead of the units itself (ie. not like a photon cannon, where the missile follows the target and hits no matter what) and move somewhat slower than a photon cannon orb.
This opens up the possibility for enemy players to micro away from the attacks of the Colossus, although it should be hard.
Additionally, it should open up for Colossus harass/drop-micro being viable. that's a fantastic idea imo. you could make an animation for the colossus in which it charges up to fire the beam / cannon / laser whatever. you have to manually order a colossus to attack in a certain area for instance. no smart-casting, you would have to do each one individually. maybe make it even so that it displays a mark like the nuke for the enemy so that he can dodge it with micro. would be hella fun to use / micro against.
So its basically a faster reaver that can walk up cliffs. I like it! Reaver was cooler anyway, just bring it back and call it the collosus. Fixed.
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Useless units:
Carrier
Carrier
Carrier
Sorry but they needs something new, come on blizzard give some of your love! <3
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1) Uninteresting units: Thor, Marauder, Marauder, Marauder. They are so uninteresting. BW army composition was much cooler without a backbone unit such as Marauders.
I disagree that Marines were uninteresting. I think they are very interesting for a variety of reason. For example they make splash damage important (Colossi, Storm, Fungal, Baneling, Siegetank), are the maybe most extreme example of units that only work in certain numbers (they scale well due to their range and small size, but suffer from beeing too many and being taken out by aoe -> only good in middle sizes).
And they have an interesting concept of mobility, because you can spread groups of them everywhere and they still are effective. This is especially seen in Boxer's play versus Zerg, sometimes showing absolutely brilliant moments.
2) Mechanics: The fact that there only are so few positional units such as siege tanks. The fact that map control not important enough for that reason. The fact that Protoss doesn't even like taking map control versus terra, because there is no use in doing so.
Because of lack of Marauders aka. super fast running super strong backbone combat unit, Terran relied on both positioning (slow moving siege tank heavy armies) and Map control (vultures and mines) in brood war. Since this element of struggle for map control faded, it's boring now imo.
Then, the clumping and moving of units, which makes single units not important enough. I think that a well positioned single siege tank in BW was able to do much more than in SC2, because it is easier to close in on it and kill it, because units move so well. Also AoE became very unspectacular, because it only affects so small areas because it would be imbalanced otherwise, because units clump so strongly.
Also: Worker saturation, because it's quite annoying that expanding past three bases doesn't benefit a player at all.
3) New Units:
-Arbiters instead of mothership, because it was an awesome casting unit
-Marauders removed or replaced by a fire-bat like unit
-Hellion revamped, because it's a stupid unit right now. It can roast a players whole economy in seconds making millions of players rage every day, but has few uses otherwise. I'ld love seeing spider mines return, on bigger maps at least.
-Lurkers. Positional play for Zerg is totally missing and badly required.
-Thor beeing made smaller, cheaper, weaker again. The concept of hero units failed. They have so few tactical value that I don't even really want to mind control them, even though they are so expansive. I'd rather take a couple of siege tanks.
-Colossus beeing switched back to Transporter+Reaver. I don't think a unit should be as strong as colossus when just beeing a-clicked into the opponent (only exeption: Utralisks, because Zerg mechanics work differently). I always saw Protoss as a race that should have to micro a lot but be rewarded for it, too. Reaver-Shuttle provides that. Colossus does not nearly as much.
Overall: Yes, what I basically am saying is that most significant changes that distinguish SC2 from Broodwar were poorly made. But I'm not just saying so just because I don't want changes, but because I don't see anything good coming from them. I just want to be the game to be good.
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On June 01 2011 03:16 Dystisis wrote:
If I were to do one thing, it would be this:
Colossus:
Instead of the instant AoE laser attack that it does now, change its attack into something "similar" to the Reaver attack from BW, where it shoots a missile which deals high splash damage. This orb (think something similar to a photon cannon missile) would be fired at the *position* of units, instead of the units itself (ie. not like a photon cannon, where the missile follows the target and hits no matter what) and move somewhat slower than a photon cannon orb.
This opens up the possibility for enemy players to micro away from the attacks of the Colossus, although it should be hard.
Additionally, it should open up for Colossus harass/drop-micro being viable.
Yeah this sounds pretty cool. As long as it isn't completely fucking retarded and mostly luck like the reaver's shot was ^_^
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I think the game needs more cool map features, like the xelnaga towers.
There needs to be incentive to leave your base and go out and fight over points of contention.
For example, in wc3, if you stood in your base you would get owned because your opponent is killing all the creeps getting xp, items, gold, access to shops/mercenaries and clearing expo locations.
Maybe like some destructible boxes that randomly spawn around the map and drop minerals/gas? Would force players to split up their forces a lot more and be more active on the map.
Sc2 needs more depth, one more innovative map element added I think would make the game a lot more action packed.
Also, in general, more ways to let you get an edge over your opponent through sheer skill. More micro incentives, macro mechanics that take speed and timing to master, etc.
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Terran
-Remove reaper. Overlaps the role of hellion and seems more suitable as a C&C unit.
-Remove blue-flame upgrade. BF hellion is just retarded. Give it extra dmg to light when it's already doing extra dmg to light? Give it a cheaper cost and maybe make them require a speed upgrade. I don't mind land mines upgrade XD.
-Fast banshee, but lower cost (supply/resource/build time) and damage (4 hits for worker maybe) for the sake of giving terran a fast air unit for once.
-Thor -- boring unit
Protoss
-Remove FF. I don't really think it's a good idea to allow protoss to alter the terrain to their advantage. Yea, good FF takes skill. But I feel that it makes the gameplay boring.
-Remove immortal. And put in something else or alter the role of immortals.
Zerg
-Corruptors. Pretty obvious badly-made unit.
-Infestors and ultra should switch tiers if they wanna keep infestors/ultras as it is.
-Roach is a rather boring unit. Allow it to morph to other units. I.e Hydralisk or lurkers
Miscellaneous
Dynamic unit movement for better spectator experience!!!!
--My random thoughts
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The 3 most uninteresting:
1. Pheonix: Ridiculous that it can fire while flying; no micro required, just need to set rally points.
2. Corruptors: Like all others have posted..
3. Thors: Its so slow baby. =P
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On June 01 2011 03:25 Mios wrote:
I think the game needs more cool map features, like the xelnaga towers.
There needs to be incentive to leave your base and go out and fight over points of contention.
For example, in wc3, if you stood in your base you would get owned because your opponent is killing all the creeps getting xp, items, gold, access to shops/mercenaries and clearing expo locations.
Maybe like some destructible boxes that randomly spawn around the map and drop minerals/gas? Would force players to split up their forces a lot more and be more active on the map.
Sc2 needs more depth, one more innovative map element added I think would make the game a lot more action packed.
Or lava that comes up and kills all your units on the low ground! That'd be so sick!
I don't trust blizzard to add "creative" map features. They should just have a better "high ground advantage" mechanic so that places on the map are naturally more important to hold
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- What 3 units in the game need to go into the redesign list?
Colossus, Roach/Hydra, Corruptor. I don't even consider the Overseer a real unit. It's just a prop.
- What mechanics do you find needing tweaks? or badly designed.
Creep, zerg early scouting vT.
- What graphic/misc tweaks do you want to see?
Kerrigan looking infested again instead of black. Faster/more initial creep spread from hatches. Less auto clumping. Get rid of or tone down smart firing.
- What type of new units/buildings would you like to see?
Lair tech siege/defensive unit, aka lurker.
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1. Collossus.
1A with no micro or army positioning required. Collosi have a lot of HP and are too difficult to catch out of position because they can just walk up a cliff or walk over to the back of the army. The reaver worked much better because it was slow, extremely positional, and required a shuttle. Reavers had epic moments where they killed tons of stuff. Good times. I wouldn't mind a buff to storm to compensate for shittier (or no more) Collosi; casting storm requires micro at least...
2. Overseer. It's a stupid boring unit that removes native detection from overlords. DTs and cloaked wraiths were still extremely useful in BW. Not having detection on Overlords is just another stupid way for zerg to lose in the early game (as if they didn't have enough).
3. Hydra. One of my favorite BW units is now something I dread building. I want my one food hydras with speed upgrade and lurker upgrade. Though a Hydra change could possibly be imbalanced because of the larva mechanic. Hard to say without testing though.
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Warpgates make PvT and PvZ boring to watch. Get rid of them, it was a dumb idea.
Also, bring back Defilers, Lurkers, Arbiters, and re-buff Siege Tanks. Get rid of Collossi. Make units stop clumping together so closely.
+ Show Spoiler +
Yes, I am asking you to turn SC2 into a graphically updated BW. It would be a huge improvement.
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EPT
