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On May 22 2011 14:37 Serpico wrote:
that's slave labor. No one wants to go back to how it was in broodwar and the koreans are specifically trying to avoid that kind of regiment.
What you call slave labor, others see as hard work. The best will continue to put the work in.
There is a very damn good reason why Flash and Jaedong are still leading the charge in BW.
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On May 22 2011 14:46 puttputt wrote:
How many tournaments are there in Korea?
How many tournaments are there in Europe?
It's an easy decision of where to stay.
Looking at the last tournament roundup on TL only 5 guys made more money than the 16 guys that didn't make it out of the Code S group stages.
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does anyone else know why NASL is working? even with the amount of players they have and also the amount of games they play? it lasts quite a long time, and that's possible because people can play the matches online in one big country, all across the nation. Korea is a small country that is pretty damn far from both NA and EU, even people in SEA would probably have huge travel expenses.
It's just not feasible to play in GSL right now unlike the World Tournament which lasted less than a week, where as normal seasons of GSL are about a month long. That's a TON of time to be in a foreign country for just playing one tournament, I mean I'm sure there are plenty of online korean tournaments but just the living expenses alone would be tough.
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On May 22 2011 14:31 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 14:15 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:19 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote:
TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players Again, you keep speaking for everyone and making these sweeping statements. I really think you need to stop pretending you're the mouthpiece of the foreign community and speak for yourself. I really think a lot of foreigners who haven't even been to Korea, e.g. TSL3 finalists Naniwa and Thorzain, would not say that they can "never win consistently vs the top players". Being a pro player doesn't let you speak for everyone. The only person you can speak for is yourself, period. im not being a mouthpiece im just being honest, if you want to live in ur lil fictitious fairy land then be my guest
You say you're "just being honest" but what you're spouting is your opinion and nothing more. You don't have tournament results to back this up. The few times we have seen some of our top foreigners go up against Koreans, they're performed very well.
What evidence do you have to back your claims? You say I'm in a "fictitious fairy land" while you're the one sitting up there on some high horse making claims about other players abilities, which you have no right to do, nor any real basis on which to do that.
Being a pro player doesn't exempt you from actually having to make a good argument. We're not just going to take everything you say as gospel when all actual evidence is contradictory to what you're saying.
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On May 22 2011 14:48 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 14:37 Serpico wrote:
that's slave labor. No one wants to go back to how it was in broodwar and the koreans are specifically trying to avoid that kind of regiment. What you call slave labor, others see as hard work. The best will continue to put the work in. There is a very damn good reason why Flash and Jaedong are still leading the charge in BW.
Yes, I'm sure you could run a sweatshop and call it "hard work" if you wanted as well. Flash and Jaedong happen to be two of the most talented players in the world, it's not like they practice 20 hours a day and everyone else 10. Practicing 12 hours instead of 10 isn't going to get you to the top, eventually you hit diminishing returns and your practice is counter productive because of fatigue.
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On May 22 2011 14:53 Subversion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 14:31 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 14:15 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:19 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote:
TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players Again, you keep speaking for everyone and making these sweeping statements. I really think you need to stop pretending you're the mouthpiece of the foreign community and speak for yourself. I really think a lot of foreigners who haven't even been to Korea, e.g. TSL3 finalists Naniwa and Thorzain, would not say that they can "never win consistently vs the top players". Being a pro player doesn't let you speak for everyone. The only person you can speak for is yourself, period. im not being a mouthpiece im just being honest, if you want to live in ur lil fictitious fairy land then be my guest You say you're "just being honest" but what you're spouting is your opinion and nothing more. You don't have tournament results to back this up. The few times we have seen some of our top foreigners go up against Koreans, they're performed very well. What evidence do you have to back your claims? You say I'm in a "fictitious fairy land" while you're the one sitting up there on some high horse making claims about other players abilities, which you have no right to do, nor any real basis on which to do that. Being a pro player doesn't exempt you from actually having to make a good argument. We're not just going to take everything you say as gospel when all actual evidence is contradictory to what you're saying.
but wouldnt i have more credibility than you? if nony were to make the exact same statements that i just made would you have believed him?
also you say i have no tournament results but you should take a closer look at this list: http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./
my evidence is my word, and your evidence is based off of 1 tournament(tsl where the only foreigner who was competitive vs the koreans was thorzain)competitive , were both kinda turning in circles so ill give u the win
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That's your opinion bud, grand. Too bad it doesn't mean much to them.
We're not just talking about practice hours. They have talent. I'll give you that, but there is a lot more to it, lmao.
As long as their heads are in the game, I don't see anyone dethroning them anytime soon in dominance (BW wise).
TT, his problem lies in the fact you are putting words in other people's mouths. I'm sure he wouldn't have a prob if you just stuck to your own guns.
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The world of starcraft esports has changed. Korea is no longer the must go to place for a progamer. There are opportunities in esports which exist outside of Korea. So much so that going to Korea is actually sometimes a bad decision for progamers.
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On May 22 2011 14:48 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 14:37 Serpico wrote:
that's slave labor. No one wants to go back to how it was in broodwar and the koreans are specifically trying to avoid that kind of regiment. What you call slave labor, others see as hard work. The best will continue to put the work in. There is a very damn good reason why Flash and Jaedong are still leading the charge in BW.
And that reason is called money.
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On May 22 2011 14:53 emc wrote:
does anyone else know why NASL is working? even with the amount of players they have and also the amount of games they play? it lasts quite a long time, and that's possible because people can play the matches online in one big country, all across the nation. Korea is a small country that is pretty damn far from both NA and EU, even people in SEA would probably have huge travel expenses.
It's just not feasible to play in GSL right now unlike the World Tournament which lasted less than a week, where as normal seasons of GSL are about a month long. That's a TON of time to be in a foreign country for just playing one tournament, I mean I'm sure there are plenty of online korean tournaments but just the living expenses alone would be tough.
1. We don't even know if the NASL is working.
2. NASL takes place online with latency issues and Koreans have to actually wake up early in the morning (past 12am to play).
3. The GSL and NASL aren't really good products to compare with each other.
The problem is that Koreans like their esports to be broadcasted live in a similar format to that of sporting tournaments (ie you don't see the FIFA World Cup take place within 2-3 days do you?), where playing and practicing Starcraft is actually a sustainable day job (note I only mention Starcraft. We're yet to see if SC2 can be as sustainable as SC1 for the players).
This conflicts with the western esports model of online competition (often neglecting higher latency countries in Asia) and weekend LANs, where playing and practicing Starcraft might be a well-paying job, but one which might not be so secure and sustainable (except for a few).
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On May 22 2011 14:53 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 14:48 StarStruck wrote:On May 22 2011 14:37 Serpico wrote:
that's slave labor. No one wants to go back to how it was in broodwar and the koreans are specifically trying to avoid that kind of regiment. What you call slave labor, others see as hard work. The best will continue to put the work in. There is a very damn good reason why Flash and Jaedong are still leading the charge in BW. Yes, I'm sure you could run a sweatshop and call it "hard work" if you wanted as well. Flash and Jaedong happen to be two of the most talented players in the world, it's not like they practice 20 hours a day and everyone else 10. Practicing 12 hours instead of 10 isn't going to get you to the top, eventually you hit diminishing returns and your practice is counter productive because of fatigue.
Reminds me of a quote from idra "I don't know why people make a big deal over stamina. I've never had a problem sitting down and playing a game all day, and if you do you have problems."
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On May 22 2011 10:28 TT1 wrote:
tt i wish i could have found the edit button, i hope someone ends up translating my post lol
Edited out im retarded
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On May 22 2011 15:08 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 10:28 TT1 wrote:
tt i wish i could have found the edit button, i hope someone ends up translating my post lol Why did you post that, koreans are just going to think we are dumb considering the amount of wrong information on there. with the new schedule change and the fact that if you win MLG you get a direct seed into code a, it brings up points that are irrelevant now.
Winning MLG (after collumbus) is code S
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Well, there is a valid reason why Jinro and HuK wanted to stay in Korea. As they even said themselves in interviews, they want to be the best and they believe the practice environment in Korea will provide that for them. Jinro certainly had that spurt in MLG Dallas and consecutive top 4 finishes in GSLs. If you asked me prior, I would have never predicted that. I've known the guy for a very long time and I would have never thought that was imaginable, but he proved me wrong. Would have been nice if HayprO proved me wrong as well.
With that said, there are a lot more opportunities outside of Korea but in terms of practice... I'm still under the belief that as long as you have good communication and good practice partners in Korea, their culture will pay dividends. This will only happen if you immerse yourself in the culture and you take a prolonged stay. Several foreigners went down for BW and couldn't break the lineups and in many scenarios, came back after several months. Every player is different. It could take months to anyone's guess.
On May 22 2011 15:04 NPHarris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 14:48 StarStruck wrote:On May 22 2011 14:37 Serpico wrote:
that's slave labor. No one wants to go back to how it was in broodwar and the koreans are specifically trying to avoid that kind of regiment. What you call slave labor, others see as hard work. The best will continue to put the work in. There is a very damn good reason why Flash and Jaedong are still leading the charge in BW. And that reason is called money.
Way to miss my point.
Money is an incentive. (I already mentioned this earlier as being the main reason why foreigners are passing on the GOM tournaments. Financially it doesn't make sense; but, this is an entirely different point).
With regards to Flash and Jae, you don't become an overnight success. Sure, they have been making good money over the last few years, but it wasn't always like that. I wasn't talking about their money situation, but that is still a good point albeit a fairly obvious one which leads me to say that wasn't the point I was making at all. They have certain qualities other players lack other than talent, which are fairly obvious too.
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On May 22 2011 15:08 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 10:28 TT1 wrote:
tt i wish i could have found the edit button, i hope someone ends up translating my post lol Why did you post that, koreans are just going to think we are dumb considering the amount of wrong information on there. with the new schedule change and the fact that if you win MLG you get a direct seed into code a, it brings up points that are irrelevant now.
what wrong information? dont just fucking write a blank statement give me some sort of proof
that post was mainly to explain why the foreigners rejected the gsl super tournament invitation, what would you know about that? the rest of my post talks about my time spent in korea
out of that WHOLE post i think 2 lines amounted to me talking about koreans being better than foreigners and that was mostly just to be polite(but it is true) and fucking subversion blows it up into a shitfest
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
On May 22 2011 15:08 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 10:28 TT1 wrote:
tt i wish i could have found the edit button, i hope someone ends up translating my post lol Why did you post that, koreans are just going to think we are dumb considering the amount of wrong information on there. with the new schedule change and the fact that if you win MLG you get a direct seed into code a, it brings up points that are irrelevant now.
he's talking about the super tournament, not the GSL seasons
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On May 22 2011 14:52 pieman819 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 14:46 puttputt wrote:
How many tournaments are there in Korea?
How many tournaments are there in Europe?
It's an easy decision of where to stay. Looking at the last tournament roundup on TL only 5 guys made more money than the 16 guys that didn't make it out of the Code S group stages.
and thats those 5 guys that were ahead were only because big tournaments were going on at the time, that is not going to happen every month. And still 5 guys is nothing considering that the people they are ahead of are the bottom of the barrel in code s. aside from thorzain anyone who made it past the round of 8 in korea made more money. Plus if you look at the top earner for starcraft in the past 4 months, top 10 or even 15 are gonna be korean before you will even see a foreigner. People are pretty ignorant aside from 2 tournaments in the west that dont equal even as much as 1 gsl overall (nasl happens over the course of 2 and a half gsl's and IPL has about 1/3rd of the prize pool of 1 gsl) the money is still in korea. Smaller online tournaments amount to nothing most are for 100-500 dollars with a 1000 - 2000 dollar one popping up once a month or so, and koreans play in the bigger ones such as the FXO tournaments so i dont see why a foreigner in korea wouldnt play in those and then some others. The FXO tournaments are played on NA and i beleive that every single one has been won by a korean. So regardless of weather your in korea or not your still not gonna get the top prize at any of these tournaments. And what are the chances of someone winning ALOT of these small online cups even if you win 3 in a month wich is pretty fucking rare you arent even probably gonna make as much as someone who didnt make it out of the round of 32 in code s.
Sigh. i dont know how many more times im gonna have to explain this lol
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On May 22 2011 14:42 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 13:54 Azarkon wrote:
The time commitment is almost certainly the main reason, along with lack of free travel. Foreigners in other games like WC 3, CS, and DOTA go regularly to tournaments all across Europe, and to China, Korea, Malaysia, etc. when invited. But for SC 2 they don't seem to be interested. The difference between WC 3, CS, and DOTA tournaments and the GSL, including the GSL Super Tournament, is that they're not month-long, but week-long, or in some cases weekend-long affairs, and travel expenses are usually paid by the organizers.
It's quite obvious when comparing foreigners' response to the GSL WC and the actual GSL leagues what the reason for the rejections is. What's not obvious is what the GSL organizers intend to do about it, if anything. WC3, CS and Dota's popularity weren't focused in Korea and isn't exactly part of their culture. A lot of focus and prizemoney has been pumped into Starcraft (and SC2 to an extent) in Korea. Perhaps if the SC2 Korean scene declines like the WC3, we'll see the top Koreans get international sponsorships (like how Lyn, Moon, the others got sponsorships from MYM and SK) and then participate in more foreign tournaments... But at the moment, the Korean scene seems to be rather healthy with the expansion of the team league and the influx of sponsors to the new Korean teams. There's no real incentive or funds to go overseas for the Korean players anyway. I'm not entirely sure, but I'm pretty sure that before the Korean WC3 leagues started declining in popularity, most of the tournaments between the top War3 pros of Europe and Korea/China were online in high latency environments (aside from big WCGs and ESWCs). As for Dota, I believe not until maybe 2 or 3 years ago did the Chinese and Asian teams start owning in LANs as most of the LANs were based in Europe before that and most tournaments were online anyway. Prior to that it had always been European teams dominating. EDIT: TL;DR - The Korean Starcraft (and eSports) culture is to make their tournaments broadcasted leagues similar to real sports tournaments rather than a LAN over a couple of days. They tried to use the same model for WC3, but failed because of its lost of popularity and the foreigner scene outgrew it... Expecting SC2 to follow suit is kind of like hoping the Korean televised SC2 scene dies. But we can still wait and see how GomTV decides to adjust to accommodate foreigners and expand the Korean SC2 scene at the same time.
The big difference is that GOMTV really needs the foreign market since they only have about two years before the re-compete is up. I seriously doubt that they can go head-to-head with KeSPA / MBCGames without the foreign support.
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On May 22 2011 15:12 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 15:08 cheesemaster wrote:On May 22 2011 10:28 TT1 wrote:
tt i wish i could have found the edit button, i hope someone ends up translating my post lol Why did you post that, koreans are just going to think we are dumb considering the amount of wrong information on there. with the new schedule change and the fact that if you win MLG you get a direct seed into code a, it brings up points that are irrelevant now. what wrong information? dont just fucking write a blank statement give me some sort of proof that post was mainly to explain why the foreigners rejected the gsl super tournament invitation, what would you know about that? the rest of my post talks about my time spent in korea
Ooops i thought you quoted the problems in korea post. Your and xeris's realy names are pretty close if im not mistaken
Totally my bad, man i should stop posting im too tired.
Again sorry my bad.
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seriously TT1 you dont even understand why were a little angry? your message to GOM was as if you were the acting representative of the entire foreign community and then start spewing your opinions which FXO (im guessing thats a managers account) disagreed with a few posts down. We arnt just being "haters" and if it were liquidtyler i still would be angry if he worded it the same way for that reason
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EPT
