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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
On May 22 2011 15:23 cheesemaster wrote: Ooops i thought you quoted the problems in korea post. Your and xeris's realy names are pretty close if im not mistaken Totally my bad, man i should stop posting im too tired. Again sorry my bad. no biggie | ||
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ThatsNoMoon
Mexico344 Posts
It's like telling a fisher hes fishing wrong when you have no experience yourself. | ||
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oo inflame oo
United States286 Posts
On May 22 2011 14:53 Subversion wrote: You say you're "just being honest" but what you're spouting is your opinion and nothing more. You don't have tournament results to back this up. The few times we have seen some of our top foreigners go up against Koreans, they're performed very well. What evidence do you have to back your claims? You say I'm in a "fictitious fairy land" while you're the one sitting up there on some high horse making claims about other players abilities, which you have no right to do, nor any real basis on which to do that. Being a pro player doesn't exempt you from actually having to make a good argument. We're not just going to take everything you say as gospel when all actual evidence is contradictory to what you're saying. IEM 3 of the top 4 were Korean, korean won Stockholm invitiational Korean won Copenhagen Korean won You guys really need to stop putting so much emphasis on online tournaments, they still beat foreigners during live events when the conditions are fair. Also, every GSL was won by a Korean. Just wait until MLG and you'll see that TT1 speaks the truth. | ||
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
On May 22 2011 15:23 Dawski wrote: seriously TT1 you dont even understand why were a little angry? your message to GOM was as if you were the acting representative of the entire foreign community and then start spewing your opinions which FXO (im guessing thats a managers account) disagreed with a few posts down. We arnt just being "haters" and if it were liquidtyler i still would be angry if he worded it the same way for that reason DUDE WHAT I SAID HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU, i explained why all the foreigners rejected the gsl super tournament invite and i then started talking about random shit going on in the korean scene and i thanked a few people.. what does any of this have to do with you? are you that offended over when i said "until that day i will practice even harder in order to reach the same level as the top korean players because as it is the top koreans players are much much better than the top foreign players,"? i seriously have no clue what offended you in my post | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On May 22 2011 14:52 pieman819 wrote: Looking at the last tournament roundup on TL only 5 guys made more money than the 16 guys that didn't make it out of the Code S group stages. Making money from tournament results is only one side of the medal. Your sponsors will get more exposure if you compete more often and they might not even be interested in the Korean market. Another side is that you also have expenses to pay if you "move to Korea" and you are living away from your family / friends and bunched up in bunk beds with loads of others under conditions which you might have found fun as a school kid, but which dont work out when you are older. Sure you might earn a few hundred dollars more, but there is a price tag attached which cant always be named. GOM just needs to host shorter tournaments and needs to break away from the "every game gets shown" format. | ||
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cheesemaster
Canada1975 Posts
I actually totally agree with you in terms of the skill gap between foreigners and koreans right now and unless things start to change in the west it will only get bigger. I dont think anyone should go to korea unless they seriously think they can compete with the best or have some insane practice regiment at home already that would let them keep up with koreans. It doesnt seem plausible that foreigners who probably on average practice between 4-8 hours a day (obviously there are some exceptions) would beable to keep up with korean pro gaming houses with their rigid schedules and close to 12 hours a day of mandatory practice. I also agree that the super tournament doesnt really make sense for foreigners but i think that the top 4 at MLG have a great opportunity if they think they are skilled enough, an all expenses paid trip to korea where you get 5 days to participate in code a and by then you will know if you are in the up and down matches doesnt seem like such a huge commitment. | ||
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Arkless
Canada1547 Posts
Lots of foreign fans complain and criticize about such news, and says 'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans.' Also the manager of team Fnatic complained that "the invitaion of Super Tournament from GomTV came out in rush." PlayXP was able to hear opinion of Chae Jung Won, the head of Manage team in GomTV (also main caster of GSL), during presentation of new format change of GSL in May 19th. Mr. Chae said, "We gave the same amount of warning time as we did with World Championship. I do not understand the reason of rejection since they were able to participate in World Championship." except that the WC was only a week long event, whereas the ST is a full month. 3 weeks isn't reallt a feasible amount of time to pick up and move for a month in most cases across the world. | ||
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
On May 22 2011 14:58 TT1 wrote: but wouldnt i have more credibility than you? if nony were to make the exact same statements that i just made would you have believed him? also you say i have no tournament results but you should take a closer look at this list: http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./ my evidence is my word, and your evidence is based off of 1 tournament(tsl where the only foreigner who was competitive vs the koreans was thorzain)competitive , were both kinda turning in circles so ill give u the win Hey man look, I like you and I have no problem with you. I like Nony too, lol. I don't think you're like this uncredible person in the community or anything, as a progamer I value your opinions and insights, and you're rather vocal and I often agree with the things you say. I just can't help getting defensive of our players, and I guess I have a fair measure of "Western pride" if you can call it that. I just think there's this perception that these Koreans are these godlike players and while I think it was true in BW, I don't really think its applying in SC2. It's not just the TSL, its NASL and also even GSL, including the World Championships (where you yourself held your own!). I just think we need to stand up and say bring it Koreans, we can take you on and we can win. And I feel like this is true. The Korean forum translations we always see are of Koreans acting as if they're really superior and blaming stuff like latency and other extraneous crap on every loss to a foreigner. I just think we need to be proud and confident, and not say "yes, we know you're better than us..." and reinforce that belief. Anyways I do apologise if I sounded aggressive, I guess its just a touchy subject for me. Starcraft nationalism or something, hehe. I wish you the best of luck in the future  | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
On May 22 2011 15:31 Subversion wrote: Hey man look, I like you and I have no problem with you. I like Nony too, lol. I don't think you're like this uncredible person in the community or anything, as a progamer I value your opinions and insights, and you're rather vocal and I often agree with the things you say. I just can't help getting defensive of our players, and I guess I have a fair measure of "Western pride" if you can call it that. I just think there's this perception that these Koreans are these godlike players and while I think it was true in BW, I don't really think its applying in SC2. It's not just the TSL, its NASL and also even GSL, including the World Championships (where you yourself held your own!). I just think we need to stand up and say bring it Koreans, we can take you on and we can win. And I feel like this is true. The Korean forum translations we always see are of Koreans acting as if they're really superior and blaming stuff like latency and other extraneous crap on every loss to a foreigner. I just think we need to be proud and confident, and not say "yes, we know you're better than us..." and reinforce that belief. Anyways I do apologise if I sounded aggressive, I guess its just a touchy subject for me. Starcraft nationalism or something, hehe. I wish you the best of luck in the future na im sorry too i always take everything way too personally, im sure that every foreigner shares the same sentiments as you.. including me but i was only trying to speak honestly and most of the time when that happens i come off as being over-agressive, sorry about that<3 LOL its hilarious how many times i paused my prison break episode just to come on tl so i could hit the refresh button endlessly, kinda reminded me of the old tl days where id get into flamewars with idra and we would both sit on the thread hitting f5 every second... AAAHHH good times | ||
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cheesemaster
Canada1975 Posts
On May 22 2011 15:31 Subversion wrote: Hey man look, I like you and I have no problem with you. I like Nony too, lol. I don't think you're like this uncredible person in the community or anything, as a progamer I value your opinions and insights, and you're rather vocal and I often agree with the things you say. I just can't help getting defensive of our players, and I guess I have a fair measure of "Western pride" if you can call it that. I just think there's this perception that these Koreans are these godlike players and while I think it was true in BW, I don't really think its applying in SC2. It's not just the TSL, its NASL and also even GSL, including the World Championships (where you yourself held your own!). I just think we need to stand up and say bring it Koreans, we can take you on and we can win. And I feel like this is true. The Korean forum translations we always see are of Koreans acting as if they're really superior and blaming stuff like latency and other extraneous crap on every loss to a foreigner. I just think we need to be proud and confident, and not say "yes, we know you're better than us..." and reinforce that belief. Anyways I do apologise if I sounded aggressive, I guess its just a touchy subject for me. Starcraft nationalism or something, hehe. I wish you the best of luck in the future Where do you see koreans acting superior and blaming lag? From the korean nitizen reactions for the TSL i heard them dissing their own players for lack of skill and praising some of the foreigners that did well, i hardly heard (if any) mentions of them blaming lag. Also the korean pro gamers have been very vocal about wanting to compete with more foreigners and alot of them have said they were suprised at how good the foreigners were and they dont really see as huge of a skill gap as they thought. MC can be a bit cocky about it at times but overall i think the response to foreigners if very good in korea. | ||
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GenZai
France38 Posts
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gregnog
United States289 Posts
Why is this so hard for some people to understand? Its not like every foreigner is shaking in fear, its just not smart to go to Korea. | ||
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pieman819
Australia457 Posts
On May 22 2011 15:28 Rabiator wrote: Making money from tournament results is only one side of the medal. Your sponsors will get more exposure if you compete more often and they might not even be interested in the Korean market. Another side is that you also have expenses to pay if you "move to Korea" and you are living away from your family / friends and bunched up in bunk beds with loads of others under conditions which you might have found fun as a school kid, but which dont work out when you are older. Sure you might earn a few hundred dollars more, but there is a price tag attached which cant always be named. GOM just needs to host shorter tournaments and needs to break away from the "every game gets shown" format. Gom pays the way of those who will be going from MLG winnings, I'm fairly sure they have accomodated most foreigners in the gom house aswell even when they made their own way over like Carn and Moonglade. Most of the complaints have been about the winnings and that was what I was addressing. Also I would assume that the exposure of being on GSL would be larger for a sponsor than being in a half dozen weekly cups, you do realise there is a stream that caters to non Koreans right? and it is hugely popular? targeting the Korean market has minimal influence, I doubt The Little App Factory has a huge Korean presence because Team liquid is in GSL. The personal issues is player to player but my post was directed at something entirely different. | ||
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FXOpen
Australia1844 Posts
On May 22 2011 12:21 TT1 wrote: but everyone got a 2-3 week heads up(not saying its right, its definitely something that gomtv needs to work on) for the world championships aswell, why is it that everyone managed to attend that and no one accepted their invitation to the super tournament? Sheth was invited to World championship... It simply wasn't going to happen .... 2-3 weeks is not a good enough notice. If it involves costs, it magnifies them by .5.... So again, its logistically stupid to give people less than 4 weeks to arrange travel. It makes things that little bit more expensive, and the likely reward usually isn't as much as the cost. Its the same reason that I wouldn't send all my international players to MLG, because it costs 2.5-3.5k to get there and the odds to go through open brackets and win are low (naniwa is the exception). If people want to get players to their tournaments they have to make it logistically feasible. Or help out financially in some way. | ||
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pieman819
Australia457 Posts
On May 22 2011 15:41 gregnog wrote: Its pretty simple. Its a joke to spend that much time for such little benefit. Almost no screen time for your sponsors/team, and the only way of making real money is making like top 8 of Code S? There are plenty of Non-Koreans who can consistently compete in the GSL, all of our big names could. But why would they give up 2+ months of there life after spending thousands, and at the same time giving up every other competition? Literally the only positive result would be getting top 2 or 3. Even being the best player in the world you simply can't expect to do that. Why is this so hard for some people to understand? Its not like every foreigner is shaking in fear, its just not smart to go to Korea. Why are people like you still not reading the thread where it is explained over an over that even if you lose all your code S group games you get the same money as 4th place MLG. | ||
Fubi
2228 Posts
Exactly this. I don't understand how people are trying to argue that the prize money in Korea is less than the rest of the world. Lets not even consider MVP, MC, or Nestea who won multiple GSLs. Just look at fruitdealer, winning once then never winning anything significant there after. He still made 3 times as much as the next highest foreigner so far. And people like Rain, Inca, July, who only got to the final once made comparable amount to the highest foreigner. Now if you were to win, there is no argument that your prize pool can be matched by anything outside of Korea. But lets face it, no foreigners (well more so their team and sponsors) are confident enough that they can even make it into top 4 or finals, let alone winning the GSL. So to them, its definitely true that the prize money in GSL isn't worth sacrificing all the other tournaments for. | ||
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JYN
United States14 Posts
I appreciate GOM's efforts, but I think I speak for most of us to say that even if the GSL only had Koreans, we'd still watch it. It will still be the premier league showcasing the most elite talent. Honestly, GOM should just focus on Korea or maybe start looking into partnerships with the growing E-sports scenes in Taiwan/China. Many leagues/teams have attempted to bridge the gap between Korea and the West, but it's becoming impossible and most likely not worth the effort. | ||
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eggs
1011 Posts
On May 22 2011 15:55 JYN wrote: I think we can all thank Mr. Chae and GOM for their efforts in trying to get more foreign talent. I am sure the fan wants to see it too. However, truth is that for foreign players, missing easier, more lucrative foreign tournaments is a huge opportunity cost. Spending 1 month in Korea to play in a tournament where the costs are high and the chances of victory are low is just simply a huge risk. I appreciate GOM's efforts, but I think I speak for most of us to say that even if the GSL only had Koreans, we'd still watch it. It will still be the premier league showcasing the most elite talent. Honestly, GOM should just focus on Korea or maybe start looking into partnerships with the growing E-sports scenes in Taiwan/China. Many leagues/teams have attempted to bridge the gap between Korea and the West, but it's becoming impossible and most likely not worth the effort. i dunno about that. i think GOM is in a unique position with SC2 and i like that they're trying to make the bridge to the West. a huge move that i dont think will happen would be for GOM to host another World Tournament in the US or EU. bring the giant prize pool to us, rather than luring our best foreigners to Korea to play in Code S. have the invites favor foreigners who have given Code S a chance, in interest of making SC2 more global. the GSL-MLG connection is a cool first step though, and i'm excited to see what plays out from it. | ||
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
On May 22 2011 15:34 TT1 wrote: na im sorry too i always take everything way too personally, im sure that every foreigner shares the same sentiments as you.. including me but i was only trying to speak honestly and most of the time when that happens i come off as being over-agressive, sorry about that<3 LOL its hilarious how many times i paused my prison break episode just to come on tl so i could hit the refresh button endlessly, kinda reminded me of the old tl days where id get into flamewars with idra and we would both sit on the thread hitting f5 every second... AAAHHH good times haha yeah, I get all like riled up and into and spam F5, then I start feeling bad 'cause I generally hate arguing with anyone, lol. <3 Also, you're STILL watching prison break? That show was awesome like 5 years ago dude :D | ||
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