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Totalbiscuit on IdrA's casting - Page 25

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Cuiu
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany410 Posts
May 13 2011 10:50 GMT
#481
I fully agree with him
thats the only thing what i hate when im watching the gsl
eviltomahawk
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States11135 Posts
May 13 2011 10:51 GMT
#482
On May 13 2011 19:46 Koshi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 13 2011 19:33 Nayl wrote:
On May 13 2011 19:28 Koshi wrote:
Yeah, the problem is that somebody called IdrA his casting refreshing and more pleasant than the casting done by TB.

TB can't handle that so he goes into an offensive mode where he achieves to win some people their hearth by using the terminology of casting to criticize IdrA his sort of casting.

Then TL.net doesn't understand that TB is criticizing IdrA type of casting to make his own casting seem more "legit". But they make this completely about the persons IdrA and TB.

But the bottom line is: TB didn't like that an article said that his sort of casting was possible inferior to the casting style of IdrA.


Yes, that is probably what triggered TB's response, but that doesn't make what he is pointing out any less valid. His casting methods are in fact, "legit", proven by the fact that the most popular sc caster is hd/husky, and not some analytical casters.

I am not saying that TB isn't legit. I putted it into "" because that is what TB tries to prove in his response. Best case scenario: TB is a nitpicker and can't handle that an article talks solely about a type of casting which didn't represented his own.
Why? I don't know. I have assumptions though.

TB is just giving his opinion in a Reddit thread in the same way that all of us are giving our opinions in a TL thread. I don't think this is any different from Idra or Tyler or any other well-known figure giving an opinion in a measly forum thread, even if it's so inflammatory. It was never meant to be re-posted onto TL.net to spark this heated discussion, and I think TB's language is quite appropriate in the context that it was a measly comment to a measly Reddit post.
ㅇㅅㅌㅅ
Ropid
Profile Joined March 2009
Germany3557 Posts
May 13 2011 10:51 GMT
#483
On May 13 2011 19:04 Moskau wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
understand that TB is not directly insulting Idra, I read the article and the post.

However I think his philosophy for casting is incorrect. Sports casting is different from SC2 casting because of the pace of the game, as well as the scope. Most sports have strategy but are not hinged so much on it like starcraft. Of course basketball, football, soccer, hockey, ect have strategy but not to the point where it needs to be constantly remarked upon, instead the prowess of the players teamwork and backstory, is commented on as well as some play by play.

The sport that is the closest in my opinion would be baseball. It's relatively slow paced unlike most sports similar to starcraft (not constant action). It''s also based almost entirely on a one on one atmosphere (pitcher vs batter) and the strategy of batter / pitcher is complex and most important to commentate on. Only baseball can one player single handedly win a game for his team (shutout + a homerun). The game is also incredibly cerebral, you don't need to be an incredible athlete to compete, intelligence and understanding of the game is just as important, unlike sports like football / basketball (for the most part).

Now I am a huge baseball fan, and I notice that baseball casters are quite different from others generally. Play by play exists but they don't flood the airwaves with it, they stay reserved and calm. Obviously if something important happens they aknowledge it but they don't do much hype, They don't need to, as long as people understand the situation, it's hyped. At the same time, they have a conversation about the game, the strategy, what the players should do, or are thinking / should be thinking. To do this you need two players with knowledge of the game for it to work. This seems to hold up with starcraft 2, hence the most popular casters are tasteless and artosis, who follow this model fairly closely. They do the minimal play by play, while commenting on strategy, as well as do backstory / give information (what they should do), as well as entertain.

The reason why the TB method in my opinion is very uninteresting is because he is unable to hold up a conversation with the other commentator about the game. Just commentating is not interesting. It shouldn't be pass it back and forth every 2 minutes or just one guy constantly yapping on what's happening and nothing else, it should be a dialogue about the game, with the important details done in play by play. The only way I could see TB being interesting would be a 3 caster model, with 2 other analytical casters to discuss the game while he does play by play. Even then though, he would have to talk considerably less, to allow a dialogue.

It reminds me of when I watch broodwar, I always see people comment how much they love the korean casters, eventhough they can't understand them, which I find puzzling. Commentators are there to help people understand, and give insight and entertain. This isn't radio, we don't need to hear everything that's happening, we're not morons. I respect what TB is trying to do but to be honest, you're doing it wrong. I think the evidence that backs me up is the knowledgable fans absolutely hate your style, which is never a good sign. Lastly, as a sports fanatic, I find it ironic that the guy who strives to be most like a sports caster, I find the most intolerable. Unless we count klazart as a caster of course.

P.S. Sorry im on a laptop hard to type, may be some mistakes.
Also I admit I haven't listened to TB commentary in months, I mute his casts, I find them completely unwatchable. So he might have changed his style recently, my opinions are based on older casts, I assume however he has not changed.
P.S.S American league is not real baseball.


As an experiment, I would be very interested to watch one night of casting of a tournament without any play-by-play. The only play-by-play I would like to hear is the observer saying that he noticed there is something happening on the mini-map when he wants to stay with his view.

They should be people I like to hear talking, like Day9, Artosis, InControl or Painuser for example, and they should hold themselves back from describing anything on the screen that I can see for myself. They would only tell their opinion and talk about the play and bash or praise it or try to analyse what it means for the rest of the game or the series or the tournament. Also: when they do not have anything they want to talk about, still no play-by-play and instead silence!

I suspect I would like a cast like that a lot, but I still feel I have to see it before being convinced.
"My goal is to replace my soul with coffee and become immortal."
Nayl
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada413 Posts
May 13 2011 10:51 GMT
#484
On May 13 2011 19:48 OrchidThief wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 13 2011 19:33 Nayl wrote:
On May 13 2011 19:28 Koshi wrote:
On May 13 2011 19:21 cnas wrote:
On May 13 2011 19:17 Rayven wrote:
Totalbiscuit calling someone else a bad caster. Oh the irony.

Seriously? Wtf are you talking about? Maybe you should read his post first. Also what you think of TB is kind of off topic

Yeah, the problem is that somebody called IdrA his casting refreshing and more pleasant than the casting done by TB.

TB can't handle that so he goes into an offensive mode where he achieves to win some people their hearth by using the terminology of casting to criticize IdrA his sort of casting.

Then TL.net doesn't understand that TB is criticizing IdrA type of casting to make his own casting seem more "legit". But they make this completely about the persons IdrA and TB.

But the bottom line is: TB didn't like that an article said that his sort of casting was possible inferior to the casting style of IdrA.


Yes, that is probably what triggered TB's response, but that doesn't make what he is pointing out any less valid. His casting methods are in fact, "legit", proven by the fact that the most popular sc caster is hd/husky, and not some analytical casters.


Large part of HD/Huskys success is that they were sort of first movers on the SC2 scene by casting in beta. If they had tried making an appearance now they would drown in the sea of just as mediocre and uninteresting casters showing up every day on youtube.


If they weren't the best for the casual viewing (Not to mention most prolific), they wouldn't be as big as they are now. There are tens, if not hundreds of sc2 casters on youtube, and HD/husky survived through all that. That alone should tell you something, even if you dislike their casting. They also stuck with it, and remained prolific, putting way more work than other casters on youtube.
AllinOne
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany79 Posts
May 13 2011 10:52 GMT
#485
TB is right and has over 50 years of broadcasting buisness history as evidence.
If you want a successful way to show SC2 for everyone then that is the way to go.

And to all the people who seem to dismiss this as irrelevant, since SC2 is "E-sport" and not a "real" sport:

You know a game called Starcraft 1, right?

Over 10 years of professional E-sport legacy.

And how are they broadcasting this "best" game ever, so average families and even grandparents watch it on TV?

They have two Idra/Artosis/some analysis guys and a guy who screams the shit out of a game for excitement.

Even more in finals matches than in average games.

I don't understand anything this guy screams but it doesn't matter since the energy of the screaming caster gets me pumped.

There are also a lot of funny compilations of OSL/MSL casters where they do nothing but casting a game but with a camera filming them scream and people seem to love it.

Maybe TB would be loved for his "Storrrrrrrmuuuuuuuuuuuuuu" here at Teamliquid if he would speak korean instead of english.

Mashes
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada441 Posts
May 13 2011 10:53 GMT
#486
I don't often agree with TB, but I definitely do here.
"life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery"
zeru
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
8156 Posts
May 13 2011 10:54 GMT
#487
--- Nuked ---
krews
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1308 Posts
May 13 2011 10:55 GMT
#488
idra is far and away my favorite caster because of his knowledge of the game, no other caster even comes close to that.
Deleted User 101379
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
4849 Posts
May 13 2011 10:56 GMT
#489
On May 13 2011 18:47 Deskaru wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 13 2011 18:43 Morfildur wrote:
On May 13 2011 18:36 thirnaz wrote:
Maybe for the average 12 year old WoW player this is true (me 6 years ago) but when you get older and actually UNDERSTAND the game you want someone analytical to explain in depth the small pieces that puts the puzzle together, someone like IdrA


I'm 29, Diamond league (though quite inactive) and prefer TB over IdrAs casts any day because i want to be entertained when i watch SC, not educated - i can watch replays on my own.

Calling everyone who prefers play-by-play 12 year old wow players with no SC skill is quite... condescending, especially since you are just quite a youngster yourself.

There are people who watch for entertainment and people who watch for insight, having someone like IdrA paired with an entertaining caster provides the best of both worlds, so why not have that?

So you prefer someone shitting all over your ears for X amount of minutes without you really knowing what is going on?


Yes.
Yes, I do in fact prefer someone being excited and emotional about the game even if he sometimes gets things wrong or is not able to predict the build order from the timing of the first overlord.

I have eyes, i can see that one person is on 5 bases, the other on 3, so i know how the match will probably play out. I do not need someone explaining it to me... and usually i don't even care.

While the additional insight into the game is often interesting, a pure analytical approach is simply boring, most of what it tells me are things i can see myself and it usually lacks emotion and excitement (And TB is 100% right that either is not in IdrAs skillset (yet)).

If i had to chose pure play-by-play or pure analytical, i'd always chose play-by-play without hesitation.

BUT: In any case i'd prefer 2 casters, one of each type, to any solo casting.
Papulatus
Profile Joined July 2010
United States669 Posts
May 13 2011 10:56 GMT
#490
I don't get why TB would ever post this. In all honesty, I would sooner take Idra as a solo commentator that TB. Personally, I can not stand when commentators call things wrong, or analyze the game wrong. TB committed this crime at least 10 times per game during the IPL. To me, that makes TB a terrible casters.

For TB to start the post with "Idra is not a good caster." was probably the stupidest thing you could start off a post like this with. TB is in no position at all too call Idra a bad caster. I'm not flaming TB, I just think that he's waaay off his rocker with this one.
4 Corners in a day.
Nayl
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada413 Posts
May 13 2011 11:00 GMT
#491
On May 13 2011 19:46 Moskau wrote:
Show nested quote +
You also say play by play means talking what's on the screen. This is NOT the case. Play by play caster is the one who constantly have to talk about something, whether it be about the player, the game itself, the weather or w/e in order to not have any awkward pauses.


Not really, play by play means exactly what it says, taking about the plays that are taking place.

Show nested quote +
I don't think that's what he mean when he talks about casting method. When there are more than 1 caster, it is obviously going to be more entertaining if casters engage in small talks about the game or the players. However, TB often casts himself so he must talk constantly about the events, otherwise there would be too many awkward pauses. If he were to cast in a multi person set up, of COURSE he has to talk less.


Not really my point, my point is he does too much play by play and not enough analysis. Casting yourself doesn't really work well, kind of my point. Also baseball has pauses in the commentary, although brief, you don't need to just talk constantly if you're saying nothing of worth.

Show nested quote +
TB's main point is casters are there to keep up the tension. Commentators are there to give insights. It is not exactly one guy constantly yapping away while the other guy occasionally jumps in to make a comment; their jobs are much more broad when it comes to multiple people casting together, but TB simplified for the sake of argument.


That's pretty much what I said. However I don't think totalbiscut does a good job in that aspect, he does play by play almost exclusively.

Show nested quote +
also, not everyone who watches starcraft plays starcraft. New viewers aren't going to necessarily have the basic understanding of the game to understand what 'commentators' like IdrA is saying.


I wasn't honestly commenting on IdrA tbh. Also I mentioned that announcers / casters are there to explain the situation, to build hype / tension as well as help out the new listeners.


And I'm telling you Play by Play entails things other than telling what's on the screen. TB sort of HAS to do this because, again, as you conveniently left out, he casts alone. If he doesn't talk about what's on the screen, there would be awkward silence because he doesn't have the analytical skills, and that would be bad. I'm 99% sure TB wouldn't be so focused in the game if he had another live human being he could talk to sitting beside him.

He also stated multiple times that he recognizes casting alone is NOT ideal. He wants an analytical caster beside him.

You are the one missing TB's point here.

Also Starcraft casting is different from Baseball in that it is much more light hearted environment. Pauses in sc2 casting would be rather feel awkward.
inpacktt
Profile Joined December 2010
Macedonia20 Posts
May 13 2011 11:04 GMT
#492
FFS its not about the skill anymore and who knows more about sc2 its about who is better caster and who knows more about casting! Idra is bad caster when he even knows how you are going to play out the next game :said the guy knowing how to cast. (How do ppl care about this stuff?If you don't like the casting there is always a mute button and the problem is solved + i would rather listen to idra and gain some knowledge than listen to some obvious stuff that can be seen)
joukainen
Profile Joined September 2010
Norway19 Posts
May 13 2011 11:05 GMT
#493
Idra is a boss with all his insight , Love his casting
Me, a shotgun & a zergling
HaeHei
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom162 Posts
May 13 2011 11:07 GMT
#494
well for i like idra's casting because i play the game and he really goes indepth but ye he doesn't have voice for making it sound fun BUT! thats what the other caster is for i feel
Humans are weak. For every cure found, another disease is uncovered. It's a game of chase.
Agathon
Profile Joined February 2011
France1505 Posts
May 13 2011 11:10 GMT
#495
On May 13 2011 19:41 Demonace34 wrote:
TB has a valid point if he is talking to the general casual population, but I think most people on TL would take IdrA's insight into decisions made in the game over HD or Husky try to make an obviously boring match exciting.



I think you're right. But the major fact is that MOST of viewers of GSL/TSL/NASL/ESL are casual viewers and players (like me).

If u want your tournament to be successfull, u must seduce these viewers in priority, and after them, TLers. That's the reason why i think TB is 100% right.

Esport needs money, so esport needs sponsors, sponsors needs a large audience, large audience is casual, esports need casual and non gamers, esports need commentators who can seduce them.

Idra, from my point of view, is not enough entertaining for this kind of viewers. And he doesn't have to yell or do some stupid things like Koreans commentators (personnal opinion, dont blame me), just a bit more jokes and emotions. Not too hard.
"C'est au pied du mur, qu'on voit le mieux...le mur".
turdburgler
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
England6749 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-13 11:13:43
May 13 2011 11:11 GMT
#496
On May 13 2011 19:56 Papulatus wrote:
I don't get why TB would ever post this. In all honesty, I would sooner take Idra as a solo commentator that TB. Personally, I can not stand when commentators call things wrong, or analyze the game wrong. TB committed this crime at least 10 times per game during the IPL. To me, that makes TB a terrible casters.

For TB to start the post with "Idra is not a good caster." was probably the stupidest thing you could start off a post like this with. TB is in no position at all too call Idra a bad caster. I'm not flaming TB, I just think that he's waaay off his rocker with this one.



although i disagree with your second paragraph the first one i do agree with. when watching both the ipl and nasl with people like catspajamas and TB they dont just play by play in the strickest sense, because its almost impossible to not have 'some' analysis. the gateway is dying => this is bad, is analysis, its almost unavoidable without becoming moderate temperature.

and the problem i have with this is that even in the tiny bit of analysis they do give, it was horribly wrong alot of the time. calling the wrong play, as a play-by-play guy is the worst thing. his job as he says is to build excitement and tension, but when they call something that just isnt happening or is wrong, that kills the excitement for me, it destroys my immersion in the cast.



when watching idra, he is monotone thats true. but honestly i don't care. it seems to be a habbit of nerds, or just people who dont need to speak much, that their voices sound so monotone when talking, im a victim of this myself. this makes it ok for me to still enjoy idras casting. he talks like i talk, so it doesnt break my immersion, infact it helps. his lack of stupid pitch changes or screaming into the mic means he can be listened to as a background sound while you watch and enjoy the game. he can easily blend into the production where as people screaming down the mics that things are so exciting break my immersion.

this is what it comes down to for me. can i immerse myself in the production, be completely interested in it and not bothered by whats going on around me for the duration of the time. with idra i almost always can. he only speaks when theres actually something to say, he says whats really happening, and his voice isnt overpowering. for a lot of the play by play guys they seem to think the show is about them with starcraft in the background. screaming and saying stupid things really break the immersion for me and i find it hard to enjoy or concentrate on the game. if they want to be a play by play guy i can actually stand to listen to, they just need to play the game for 5 years and smoke 100 a day to become the new tasteless.

Ser3nitynow
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden89 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-13 11:14:03
May 13 2011 11:13 GMT
#497
TB is right and i love the ppl who read the title and write an angry response when they dosnt even read the whole thing!

This show yet again a missleading title can make some hate come up to the surface. I see now the Thread started changed it but GJ with the missleading title to begin with.
Aim Here
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Scotland672 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-13 11:14:14
May 13 2011 11:14 GMT
#498
On May 13 2011 19:41 Demonace34 wrote:
If this was posted on battlenet or any other community of more casual SC2 plays I would agree with his criticism.


The post was originally posted on reddit, and it's a reply to someone's blog somewhere on the net, so you can feel free to agree with them. I actually disagree with what you say above, I think it's the teamliquid people who need to grok what he's saying more than the normals and the casuals out there.


Unfortunately (or fortunately?) TL isn't usually for the casual player and is looked at as elitist and whatnot because of this.


TL's reputation for elitism might take a big nosedive if everyone just read through the replies in this thread and saw what a massive clusterfuck of reading comprehension fail and overzealous reply-button-clicking was going on in this thread. (Not directed at you of course!)

TB has a valid point if he is talking to the general casual population, but I think most people on TL would take IdrA's insight into decisions made in the game over HD or Husky try to make an obviously boring match exciting.


Except that he's talking about the NASL commentary, and he was replying specifically to someone who thought exactly like your characterisation of a teamliquid user. It's exactly those guys who don't get his point (that the play by play guys are necessary for a significant chunk of the viewing population to enjoy watching Starcraft - and conversely, the analytical guys are necessary to help them know what's going on). The guys who know their Starcraft would be happy with the bare replay file and just doing their own observation and analysis and commenting. It's the casuals and the newbies who need the commentary in the first place!

If the NASL was just aiming at teamliquid users, then maybe Idra would be the perfect caster and maybe TotalBiscuit would be wrong. But NASL isn't trying to just sell itself to the teamliquid users, it's trying to reach as many viewers as possible. And that really does mean that you need someone with the entertainment-oriented skills needed to complement Idra's obvious analytical abilities (I vote for Jason Lee again!). As far as I can tell, TB is right on this, no matter where he's posting it or who he's talking to.
Drteeth
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Great Britain415 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-13 11:21:34
May 13 2011 11:14 GMT
#499
Idra knows his stuff to be sure.

BUT ... he's wooden and not a great caster. People watch him because of who he is, not his casting.
I totally agree with TB, who incidentally is a great solo caster.
Both DJwheat and Chill have said this about TB.
Nice cheese ....GG!
Swineflew
Profile Joined October 2010
United States61 Posts
May 13 2011 11:18 GMT
#500
On May 13 2011 19:46 zul wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 13 2011 19:35 Swineflew wrote:
On May 13 2011 19:31 Ruscour wrote:
On May 13 2011 19:24 Coolwhip wrote:
You gotto give TB credit for getting attention.

Yesterday he probably went like: 'MMMmm.... what can I do to get attention and hopefully more subcribers today? .. I got it! Let's write something about casting. Wait, that wont grab that much attention. Aha! I'll add in Idra and how he is bad at casting' Instant thousands of fanboys being all over it.

One does not write a goddamn book about an article just for drama and attention. One would just throw out a line or two of smack and drama would flow harder, because idiots wouldn't have to bother thinking about it.


You mean a line or two at the start of his article like this?
"he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion."

You seem to take this pretty personal. You posted your opinion some page ago and thats fine. Why dont you leave other people have their opinions? All your posts on the last 10 or so pages do nothing but question other people. dont do it! Let the readers decides what they think of every single post and don`t take yourself to serious. imagine everyone would start to post like you do right know. Even right know it is a pain to read through all the comments of people who clearly have not even read the OP, but when guys like you start quoting all kinds of other peoples posts, just because they dont agree with it, it gets out of line.


Well I created the thread, so I do feel some investment in it.
I have a few feelings about this that I'd like to make clear then leave the thread I suppose as you're right, I'm just repeating myself to different people trying to get my point across and gaining no ground, which should be expected as people online are pretty stubborn (myself included I suppose). I do feel TB made a cheapshot/slam/personal attack on IdrA, even if it was indirect or even unintentional.

The topic and basis of the gosu.com article had nothing to do with IdrA being an energetic/analytical/entertaining caster. The article was about how blunt and upfront he was about how the game was going and if calling the early GG was a good thing or not.
Now with that said I feel that TB's comment was out of place and unwarranted because it was irrelevant to the topic, and IdrA's energy/skill/flow wasn't addressed again.

I feel that TB wants e-sports casting, more specifically SC2 to be cast in a style that he does, because he basically outlines what should/shouldn't be done, which is his opinion and something that I don't agree with.

I think that a strategic game requires a deeper analytical casting than what a "hype man" provides, that being said I watched some of the NASL games and IdrA wasn't the analytical robot that he's being made out be, also the article completely ignores the fact that IdrA wasn't casting alone.
Of course I think the play by play and color commentator is an ideal setup, that's not the point. The point is TB took an article about being blunt and up front and his rebuttal is that IdrA is a bad caster and then goes on to state how he thinks that games should be hyped up and you shouldn't be blunt and upfront about a game, always keep up the tension.
This brings up the discussion that there are 2 different styles of casting and which type is the preference of the viewers, which leads us to where we are now, although in this thread it does boil down to TB vs IdrA directly.
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