thats the only thing what i hate when im watching the gsl
Totalbiscuit on IdrA's casting - Page 25
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Cuiu
Germany410 Posts
thats the only thing what i hate when im watching the gsl | ||
eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On May 13 2011 19:46 Koshi wrote: I am not saying that TB isn't legit. I putted it into "" because that is what TB tries to prove in his response. Best case scenario: TB is a nitpicker and can't handle that an article talks solely about a type of casting which didn't represented his own. Why? I don't know. I have assumptions though. TB is just giving his opinion in a Reddit thread in the same way that all of us are giving our opinions in a TL thread. I don't think this is any different from Idra or Tyler or any other well-known figure giving an opinion in a measly forum thread, even if it's so inflammatory. It was never meant to be re-posted onto TL.net to spark this heated discussion, and I think TB's language is quite appropriate in the context that it was a measly comment to a measly Reddit post. | ||
Ropid
Germany3557 Posts
On May 13 2011 19:04 Moskau wrote: + Show Spoiler + understand that TB is not directly insulting Idra, I read the article and the post. However I think his philosophy for casting is incorrect. Sports casting is different from SC2 casting because of the pace of the game, as well as the scope. Most sports have strategy but are not hinged so much on it like starcraft. Of course basketball, football, soccer, hockey, ect have strategy but not to the point where it needs to be constantly remarked upon, instead the prowess of the players teamwork and backstory, is commented on as well as some play by play. The sport that is the closest in my opinion would be baseball. It's relatively slow paced unlike most sports similar to starcraft (not constant action). It''s also based almost entirely on a one on one atmosphere (pitcher vs batter) and the strategy of batter / pitcher is complex and most important to commentate on. Only baseball can one player single handedly win a game for his team (shutout + a homerun). The game is also incredibly cerebral, you don't need to be an incredible athlete to compete, intelligence and understanding of the game is just as important, unlike sports like football / basketball (for the most part). Now I am a huge baseball fan, and I notice that baseball casters are quite different from others generally. Play by play exists but they don't flood the airwaves with it, they stay reserved and calm. Obviously if something important happens they aknowledge it but they don't do much hype, They don't need to, as long as people understand the situation, it's hyped. At the same time, they have a conversation about the game, the strategy, what the players should do, or are thinking / should be thinking. To do this you need two players with knowledge of the game for it to work. This seems to hold up with starcraft 2, hence the most popular casters are tasteless and artosis, who follow this model fairly closely. They do the minimal play by play, while commenting on strategy, as well as do backstory / give information (what they should do), as well as entertain. The reason why the TB method in my opinion is very uninteresting is because he is unable to hold up a conversation with the other commentator about the game. Just commentating is not interesting. It shouldn't be pass it back and forth every 2 minutes or just one guy constantly yapping on what's happening and nothing else, it should be a dialogue about the game, with the important details done in play by play. The only way I could see TB being interesting would be a 3 caster model, with 2 other analytical casters to discuss the game while he does play by play. Even then though, he would have to talk considerably less, to allow a dialogue. It reminds me of when I watch broodwar, I always see people comment how much they love the korean casters, eventhough they can't understand them, which I find puzzling. Commentators are there to help people understand, and give insight and entertain. This isn't radio, we don't need to hear everything that's happening, we're not morons. I respect what TB is trying to do but to be honest, you're doing it wrong. I think the evidence that backs me up is the knowledgable fans absolutely hate your style, which is never a good sign. Lastly, as a sports fanatic, I find it ironic that the guy who strives to be most like a sports caster, I find the most intolerable. Unless we count klazart as a caster of course. P.S. Sorry im on a laptop hard to type, may be some mistakes. Also I admit I haven't listened to TB commentary in months, I mute his casts, I find them completely unwatchable. So he might have changed his style recently, my opinions are based on older casts, I assume however he has not changed. P.S.S American league is not real baseball. As an experiment, I would be very interested to watch one night of casting of a tournament without any play-by-play. The only play-by-play I would like to hear is the observer saying that he noticed there is something happening on the mini-map when he wants to stay with his view. They should be people I like to hear talking, like Day9, Artosis, InControl or Painuser for example, and they should hold themselves back from describing anything on the screen that I can see for myself. They would only tell their opinion and talk about the play and bash or praise it or try to analyse what it means for the rest of the game or the series or the tournament. Also: when they do not have anything they want to talk about, still no play-by-play and instead silence! I suspect I would like a cast like that a lot, but I still feel I have to see it before being convinced. | ||
Nayl
Canada413 Posts
On May 13 2011 19:48 OrchidThief wrote: Large part of HD/Huskys success is that they were sort of first movers on the SC2 scene by casting in beta. If they had tried making an appearance now they would drown in the sea of just as mediocre and uninteresting casters showing up every day on youtube. If they weren't the best for the casual viewing (Not to mention most prolific), they wouldn't be as big as they are now. There are tens, if not hundreds of sc2 casters on youtube, and HD/husky survived through all that. That alone should tell you something, even if you dislike their casting. They also stuck with it, and remained prolific, putting way more work than other casters on youtube. | ||
AllinOne
Germany79 Posts
If you want a successful way to show SC2 for everyone then that is the way to go. And to all the people who seem to dismiss this as irrelevant, since SC2 is "E-sport" and not a "real" sport: You know a game called Starcraft 1, right? Over 10 years of professional E-sport legacy. And how are they broadcasting this "best" game ever, so average families and even grandparents watch it on TV? They have two Idra/Artosis/some analysis guys and a guy who screams the shit out of a game for excitement. Even more in finals matches than in average games. I don't understand anything this guy screams but it doesn't matter since the energy of the screaming caster gets me pumped. There are also a lot of funny compilations of OSL/MSL casters where they do nothing but casting a game but with a camera filming them scream and people seem to love it. Maybe TB would be loved for his "Storrrrrrrmuuuuuuuuuuuuuu" here at Teamliquid if he would speak korean instead of english. | ||
Mashes
Canada441 Posts
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zeru
8156 Posts
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krews
United States1308 Posts
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On May 13 2011 18:47 Deskaru wrote: So you prefer someone shitting all over your ears for X amount of minutes without you really knowing what is going on? Yes. Yes, I do in fact prefer someone being excited and emotional about the game even if he sometimes gets things wrong or is not able to predict the build order from the timing of the first overlord. I have eyes, i can see that one person is on 5 bases, the other on 3, so i know how the match will probably play out. I do not need someone explaining it to me... and usually i don't even care. While the additional insight into the game is often interesting, a pure analytical approach is simply boring, most of what it tells me are things i can see myself and it usually lacks emotion and excitement (And TB is 100% right that either is not in IdrAs skillset (yet)). If i had to chose pure play-by-play or pure analytical, i'd always chose play-by-play without hesitation. BUT: In any case i'd prefer 2 casters, one of each type, to any solo casting. | ||
Papulatus
United States669 Posts
For TB to start the post with "Idra is not a good caster." was probably the stupidest thing you could start off a post like this with. TB is in no position at all too call Idra a bad caster. I'm not flaming TB, I just think that he's waaay off his rocker with this one. | ||
Nayl
Canada413 Posts
On May 13 2011 19:46 Moskau wrote: Not really, play by play means exactly what it says, taking about the plays that are taking place. Not really my point, my point is he does too much play by play and not enough analysis. Casting yourself doesn't really work well, kind of my point. Also baseball has pauses in the commentary, although brief, you don't need to just talk constantly if you're saying nothing of worth. That's pretty much what I said. However I don't think totalbiscut does a good job in that aspect, he does play by play almost exclusively. I wasn't honestly commenting on IdrA tbh. Also I mentioned that announcers / casters are there to explain the situation, to build hype / tension as well as help out the new listeners. And I'm telling you Play by Play entails things other than telling what's on the screen. TB sort of HAS to do this because, again, as you conveniently left out, he casts alone. If he doesn't talk about what's on the screen, there would be awkward silence because he doesn't have the analytical skills, and that would be bad. I'm 99% sure TB wouldn't be so focused in the game if he had another live human being he could talk to sitting beside him. He also stated multiple times that he recognizes casting alone is NOT ideal. He wants an analytical caster beside him. You are the one missing TB's point here. Also Starcraft casting is different from Baseball in that it is much more light hearted environment. Pauses in sc2 casting would be rather feel awkward. | ||
inpacktt
Macedonia20 Posts
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joukainen
Norway19 Posts
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HaeHei
United Kingdom162 Posts
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Agathon
France1505 Posts
On May 13 2011 19:41 Demonace34 wrote: TB has a valid point if he is talking to the general casual population, but I think most people on TL would take IdrA's insight into decisions made in the game over HD or Husky try to make an obviously boring match exciting. I think you're right. But the major fact is that MOST of viewers of GSL/TSL/NASL/ESL are casual viewers and players (like me). If u want your tournament to be successfull, u must seduce these viewers in priority, and after them, TLers. That's the reason why i think TB is 100% right. Esport needs money, so esport needs sponsors, sponsors needs a large audience, large audience is casual, esports need casual and non gamers, esports need commentators who can seduce them. Idra, from my point of view, is not enough entertaining for this kind of viewers. And he doesn't have to yell or do some stupid things like Koreans commentators (personnal opinion, dont blame me), just a bit more jokes and emotions. Not too hard. | ||
turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On May 13 2011 19:56 Papulatus wrote: I don't get why TB would ever post this. In all honesty, I would sooner take Idra as a solo commentator that TB. Personally, I can not stand when commentators call things wrong, or analyze the game wrong. TB committed this crime at least 10 times per game during the IPL. To me, that makes TB a terrible casters. For TB to start the post with "Idra is not a good caster." was probably the stupidest thing you could start off a post like this with. TB is in no position at all too call Idra a bad caster. I'm not flaming TB, I just think that he's waaay off his rocker with this one. although i disagree with your second paragraph the first one i do agree with. when watching both the ipl and nasl with people like catspajamas and TB they dont just play by play in the strickest sense, because its almost impossible to not have 'some' analysis. the gateway is dying => this is bad, is analysis, its almost unavoidable without becoming moderate temperature. and the problem i have with this is that even in the tiny bit of analysis they do give, it was horribly wrong alot of the time. calling the wrong play, as a play-by-play guy is the worst thing. his job as he says is to build excitement and tension, but when they call something that just isnt happening or is wrong, that kills the excitement for me, it destroys my immersion in the cast. when watching idra, he is monotone thats true. but honestly i don't care. it seems to be a habbit of nerds, or just people who dont need to speak much, that their voices sound so monotone when talking, im a victim of this myself. this makes it ok for me to still enjoy idras casting. he talks like i talk, so it doesnt break my immersion, infact it helps. his lack of stupid pitch changes or screaming into the mic means he can be listened to as a background sound while you watch and enjoy the game. he can easily blend into the production where as people screaming down the mics that things are so exciting break my immersion. this is what it comes down to for me. can i immerse myself in the production, be completely interested in it and not bothered by whats going on around me for the duration of the time. with idra i almost always can. he only speaks when theres actually something to say, he says whats really happening, and his voice isnt overpowering. for a lot of the play by play guys they seem to think the show is about them with starcraft in the background. screaming and saying stupid things really break the immersion for me and i find it hard to enjoy or concentrate on the game. if they want to be a play by play guy i can actually stand to listen to, they just need to play the game for 5 years and smoke 100 a day to become the new tasteless. | ||
Ser3nitynow
Sweden89 Posts
This show yet again a missleading title can make some hate come up to the surface. I see now the Thread started changed it but GJ with the missleading title to begin with. | ||
Aim Here
Scotland672 Posts
On May 13 2011 19:41 Demonace34 wrote: If this was posted on battlenet or any other community of more casual SC2 plays I would agree with his criticism. The post was originally posted on reddit, and it's a reply to someone's blog somewhere on the net, so you can feel free to agree with them. I actually disagree with what you say above, I think it's the teamliquid people who need to grok what he's saying more than the normals and the casuals out there. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) TL isn't usually for the casual player and is looked at as elitist and whatnot because of this. TL's reputation for elitism might take a big nosedive if everyone just read through the replies in this thread and saw what a massive clusterfuck of reading comprehension fail and overzealous reply-button-clicking was going on in this thread. (Not directed at you of course!) TB has a valid point if he is talking to the general casual population, but I think most people on TL would take IdrA's insight into decisions made in the game over HD or Husky try to make an obviously boring match exciting. Except that he's talking about the NASL commentary, and he was replying specifically to someone who thought exactly like your characterisation of a teamliquid user. It's exactly those guys who don't get his point (that the play by play guys are necessary for a significant chunk of the viewing population to enjoy watching Starcraft - and conversely, the analytical guys are necessary to help them know what's going on). The guys who know their Starcraft would be happy with the bare replay file and just doing their own observation and analysis and commenting. It's the casuals and the newbies who need the commentary in the first place! If the NASL was just aiming at teamliquid users, then maybe Idra would be the perfect caster and maybe TotalBiscuit would be wrong. But NASL isn't trying to just sell itself to the teamliquid users, it's trying to reach as many viewers as possible. And that really does mean that you need someone with the entertainment-oriented skills needed to complement Idra's obvious analytical abilities (I vote for Jason Lee again!). As far as I can tell, TB is right on this, no matter where he's posting it or who he's talking to. | ||
Drteeth
Great Britain415 Posts
BUT ... he's wooden and not a great caster. People watch him because of who he is, not his casting. I totally agree with TB, who incidentally is a great solo caster. Both DJwheat and Chill have said this about TB. | ||
Swineflew
United States61 Posts
On May 13 2011 19:46 zul wrote: You seem to take this pretty personal. You posted your opinion some page ago and thats fine. Why dont you leave other people have their opinions? All your posts on the last 10 or so pages do nothing but question other people. dont do it! Let the readers decides what they think of every single post and don`t take yourself to serious. imagine everyone would start to post like you do right know. Even right know it is a pain to read through all the comments of people who clearly have not even read the OP, but when guys like you start quoting all kinds of other peoples posts, just because they dont agree with it, it gets out of line. Well I created the thread, so I do feel some investment in it. I have a few feelings about this that I'd like to make clear then leave the thread I suppose as you're right, I'm just repeating myself to different people trying to get my point across and gaining no ground, which should be expected as people online are pretty stubborn (myself included I suppose). I do feel TB made a cheapshot/slam/personal attack on IdrA, even if it was indirect or even unintentional. The topic and basis of the gosu.com article had nothing to do with IdrA being an energetic/analytical/entertaining caster. The article was about how blunt and upfront he was about how the game was going and if calling the early GG was a good thing or not. Now with that said I feel that TB's comment was out of place and unwarranted because it was irrelevant to the topic, and IdrA's energy/skill/flow wasn't addressed again. I feel that TB wants e-sports casting, more specifically SC2 to be cast in a style that he does, because he basically outlines what should/shouldn't be done, which is his opinion and something that I don't agree with. I think that a strategic game requires a deeper analytical casting than what a "hype man" provides, that being said I watched some of the NASL games and IdrA wasn't the analytical robot that he's being made out be, also the article completely ignores the fact that IdrA wasn't casting alone. Of course I think the play by play and color commentator is an ideal setup, that's not the point. The point is TB took an article about being blunt and up front and his rebuttal is that IdrA is a bad caster and then goes on to state how he thinks that games should be hyped up and you shouldn't be blunt and upfront about a game, always keep up the tension. This brings up the discussion that there are 2 different styles of casting and which type is the preference of the viewers, which leads us to where we are now, although in this thread it does boil down to TB vs IdrA directly. | ||
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