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On May 13 2011 20:38 Ziggitz wrote:
TB's casting philosphy is basically to be a shill for whatever organization is hosting the tournament. "Everyone look at how excited I am, because I am excited you should be excited too!"
It's stupid. It's an insult to the more knowledgeable spectators and it does nothing to bridge the experience gap and educate new spectators. If you don't educate new spectators they quickly become non spectators which is why TB is BAD for the SC2 pro scene. There is no credibility with TB's style of casting and his lack of analytical skills is far worse a concern than Idra's lack of showmanship which is why Bobby Knight can get get a job as an NCAA Basketball Commentator and David Letterman or Conan O'Brien couldn't in a million years. There is no established spectator sport that would abide ignorant casters for a micro second, nor false hype. Without credibility you cheapen the truly exciting moments in the game(imagine TB casting the Nestea vs SC series).
I don't even agree that his casting philosophy is valid or represented in any established spectator sport. There are two very popular forms of dual commentary:
One consists of two very knowledgeable players one of whom does the play by play casting and then during the less eventful moments engages in analysis with his co-commentator. In SC2 usually the more play by play commentator is doing the observing while the commentator playing the analyst is looking everywhere the observing player isn't trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together to figure out exactly what's going on, basically what Tasteless and Artosis do. When Artosis finds something important and exciting he interrupts Tasteless and builds excitement for the viewer by sharing with it with us and educating us at the same time. Otherwise when nothing exciting is actually happening on the screen and Artosis doesn't interject, Tasteless transitions out of the play by play and engages in analysis with Artosis, debating where the game will go from here, what each player should do or what cues they should pick up on, maybe what other players have done in the past or how a player can come back from a disadvantage, even stating that a player is straight up dead and why.
The other is a more Day[9] and DJWheat style where Wheat's game knowledge is clearly inferior to Day[9]'s but he is more than capable of steering the commentary, doing the play by play and generally playing host. He also plays the role of student while Day[9] plays the instructor in way that the audience can both follow the action and learn from the answers Day[9] gives to DJWheat's questions. Wheat can ask a question or pose a theory on what a player intends to do and ask Day[9] to comment on it, or Day[9] can take control if he sees something happening that's important and DJWheat isn't even aware is happening.
These two models are pretty much what you'll find in any well established spectator sport in one form or another and you won't find anything like what TB does. You'll find TB's philosophy of casting at the dog races, the horse track, the rock paper scissors world championship, the world's strongest man competition, the circus. Reputable leagues and Broadcasters hire authorities on the games in question which is why so many ex coaches and players end up becoming commentators. Further more TB's style doesn't really fit into any either of the two models above and they are both the kind of models that can provide the depth that veteran viewers want while providing insight and education for newer viewers at the same time.
At the end of the day TB's viewers will not stick around and Idra's will, to grow the scene you need someone who can educate new viewers to the point where they can appreciate the analysis that the pro gamer commentators do. Otherwise they're just going to lose interest because they will grow tired of such a shallow experience as they'll have none of the depth that the more educated fans have to appreciate.
This man is a professional spectator telling the professional caster what is up.
Leave the spectating to the spectators and the best casters will have the best following.
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These two models are pretty much what you'll find in any well established spectator sport in one form or another and you won't find anything like what TB does. You'll find TB's philosophy of casting at the dog races, the horse track, the rock paper scissors world championship, the world's strongest man competition, the circus. Reputable leagues and Broadcasters hire authorities on the games in question which is why so many ex coaches and players end up becoming commentators. Further more TB's style doesn't really fit into any either of the two models above and they are both the kind of models that can provide the depth that veteran viewers want while providing insight and education for newer viewers at the same time.
Reputable leagues and broadcasters also hire casters who are professionally trained to speak.
TB's methods are very similar to djWheat's. I don't see how you set them apart like you did; TB simply has to focus more on the game because he often casts alone. That's the key. He casts alone most of the time, so he has to talk about the game because he can't really talk about strategy. If he had another human being to talk to like djWheat almost always does, they would fulfill a very similar role.
At the end of the day TB's viewers will not stick around and Idra's will, to grow the scene you need someone who can educate new viewers to the point where they can appreciate the analysis that the pro gamer commentators do. Otherwise they're just going to lose interest because they will grow tired of such a shallow experience as they'll have none of the depth that the more educated fans have to appreciate.
Korean example says otherwise. To grow a scene you need someone to entertain, not to educate them to the level of a pro player. Korean commentators build excitement and create entertainment. They talk about in depth strategy, but it is not their main focus.
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Personally I think that especially due to his experience IdrA is a very good analytical commentator. I agree that there should be a combination of play-by-play and analysis but I think it odd that TB should be bashing on him because he brings a high degree of analysis to the table, more than almost anyone else.
Also the probably main problem I have with TB is that he too often makes blatantly wrong statements (seeing IPL) and I think that that really takes away from the quality of a cast when the caster has no idea of what's going on.
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Unfortunately, for the future of SC2 as e-sport, TB is extremely right. When you'll have 90% of the spectator base be people that haven't ever touched SC2 you're gonna have to give up of the technical casting, most of it anyway. It's how shit works, you can't have a large/popular scene and keep with the cryptic (from the random viewer's pov) comments.
Not sure how many went to a football game but the best part when being there isn't even the game, it's the atmosphere and you miss a lot of stuff you'd catch on TV but it's nowhere near as spectacular. And spectacular for the random person is what SC2 needs not 100% of the game in technical commentary which most of the people here don't need anyway. I love to have the game explained in minute details in terms of reasoning, strats but I can tell you if someone just wants entertainment they'll just get bored. They want screaming, shouting, excitement.
The knowledgeable spectators should expect and no, want to get shoved to the side if they care for the development of the game for the public.
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On May 13 2011 20:46 Scisyhp wrote:
Personally I think that especially due to his experience IdrA is a very good analytical commentator. I agree that there should be a combination of play-by-play and analysis but I think it odd that TB should be bashing on him because he brings a high degree of analysis to the table, more than almost anyone else.
Also the probably main problem I have with TB is that he too often makes blatantly wrong statements (seeing IPL) and I think that that really takes away from the quality of a cast when the caster has no idea of what's going on.
For Gods sake read the OP!! He wasn't bashing Idra...
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On May 13 2011 20:35 Nayl wrote:
? I didn't miss anything
Korean casters are often gold/plat level as well, and they have much higher quality than most western esports casters. I don't understand what you're trying to say. TB specialize in casting, in fact hes professionally trained for it. IdrA I guess "specialize" in commentating.
Not many people are going to have both aspects readily available like Day9 or OGN commentators.
Also TB specifically points out that Idra is a great commentator, but he is a bad caster; so it's redundant for you to say so.
my point is why would you get tb to be the play-by-play guy in one of the biggest tournaments while having other play-by-play commentators available that know way more and are just as exciting ?
see incontrol just for an example of what i'm talking about
he knows a ton about sc2 and he isn't excactly what i'd call boring to listen to
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Just to back up TBs point.
My Roommate does not play games a lot, if at all. he has SOME rts knowledge from LANs way back when, but his knowledge of sc2 is very limited.yet he LOVES watching sc2 especially when cast by play by play casters like tb. he enjoys the analytical part as well, but for him husky and tb are the far more enjoyable casters to watch. He likes watching me play as well and i always explain to him what im doing.
my point is: the tb bashing here is completely immature and unwarranted. this elitist attitude is actually hampering sc2s progression as an esport. soccer is watched by millions even if they dont play at all or are only very casual players. this is also because of the commentary provided by play by play commentators. tbs criticism is completely legitimate and even though i dont watch him that often because i prefer day 9 and other more analytical casters huskys and tbs popularity on youtube should be evidence enough that these casters do WONDERS for the advancement of sc2 as an esport.
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Idra as a solo caster is just as misplaced as TotalBiscuit playing in the GSL.
But Idra in a co-caster situation is really awesome, for any tournament to have.
Let him talk about the map, about the strategy their could pick, tech route, some post-game comment on what when wrong for the losing player and so on, and let the main caster (someone as TotalBiscuit) do the most of the casting/talking when the game is going on, and when the battle are raging.
Try and watch TotalBiscuit reviewing starjeweled (start video at around 5:15), this is how a main-caster/solo-caster should be like 
Link: Starjeweled - New Official Blizzard Custom Map for Starcraft 2
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On May 13 2011 20:38 Ziggitz wrote:
TB's casting philosphy is basically to be a shill for whatever organization is hosting the tournament. "Everyone look at how excited I am, because I am excited you should be excited too!"
It's stupid. It's an insult to the more knowledgeable spectators and it does nothing to bridge the experience gap and educate new spectators. If you don't educate new spectators they quickly become non spectators which is why TB is BAD for the SC2 pro scene. There is no credibility with TB's style of casting and his lack of analytical skills is far worse a concern than Idra's lack of showmanship which is why Bobby Knight can get get a job as an NCAA Basketball Commentator and David Letterman or Conan O'Brien couldn't in a million years. There is no established spectator sport that would abide ignorant casters for a micro second, nor false hype. Without credibility you cheapen the truly exciting moments in the game(imagine TB casting the Nestea vs SC series).
I don't even agree that his casting philosophy is valid or represented in any established spectator sport. There are two very popular forms of dual commentary:
One consists of two very knowledgeable players one of whom does the play by play casting and then during the less eventful moments engages in analysis with his co-commentator. In SC2 usually the more play by play commentator is doing the observing while the commentator playing the analyst is looking everywhere the observing player isn't trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together to figure out exactly what's going on, basically what Tasteless and Artosis do. When Artosis finds something important and exciting he interrupts Tasteless and builds excitement for the viewer by sharing with it with us and educating us at the same time. Otherwise when nothing exciting is actually happening on the screen and Artosis doesn't interject, Tasteless transitions out of the play by play and engages in analysis with Artosis, debating where the game will go from here, what each player should do or what cues they should pick up on, maybe what other players have done in the past or how a player can come back from a disadvantage, even stating that a player is straight up dead and why.
The other is a more Day[9] and DJWheat style where Wheat's game knowledge is clearly inferior to Day[9]'s but he is more than capable of steering the commentary, doing the play by play and generally playing host. He also plays the role of student while Day[9] plays the instructor in way that the audience can both follow the action and learn from the answers Day[9] gives to DJWheat's questions. Wheat can ask a question or pose a theory on what a player intends to do and ask Day[9] to comment on it, or Day[9] can take control if he sees something happening that's important and DJWheat isn't even aware is happening.
These two models are pretty much what you'll find in any well established spectator sport in one form or another and you won't find anything like what TB does. You'll find TB's philosophy of casting at the dog races, the horse track, the rock paper scissors world championship, the world's strongest man competition, the circus. Reputable leagues and Broadcasters hire authorities on the games in question which is why so many ex coaches and players end up becoming commentators. Further more TB's style doesn't really fit into any either of the two models above and they are both the kind of models that can provide the depth that veteran viewers want while providing insight and education for newer viewers at the same time.
At the end of the day TB's viewers will not stick around and Idra's will, to grow the scene you need someone who can educate new viewers to the point where they can appreciate the analysis that the pro gamer commentators do. Otherwise they're just going to lose interest because they will grow tired of such a shallow experience as they'll have none of the depth that the more educated fans have to appreciate.
so you find enthusiasm stupid and insulting
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On May 13 2011 20:47 Parnass wrote:
Just to back up TBs point.
My Roommate does not play games a lot, if at all. he has SOME rts knowledge from LANs way back when, but his knowledge of sc2 is very limited.yet he LOVES watching sc2 especially when cast by play by play casters like tb. he enjoys the analytical part as well, but for him husky and tb are the far more enjoyable casters to watch. He likes watching me play as well and i always explain to him what im doing.
my point is: the tb bashing here is completely immature and unwarranted. this elitist attitude is actually hampering sc2s progression as an esport. soccer is watched by millions even if they dont play at all or are only very casual players. this is also because of the commentary provided by play by play commentators. tbs criticism is completely legitimate and even though i dont watch him that often because i prefer day 9 and other more analytical casters huskys and tbs popularity on youtube should be evidence enough that these casters do WONDERS for the advancement of sc2 as an esport.
This is true. I'm a very casual follower of football and if it wasn't for the great play-by-play i wouldn't be as interested. Color commentary is also interesting but SC2 has a very skewed blend where the color commenter is more prominent than the guy doing the play-by-play.
I really liked the Appolo/DeMuslim cast of Dreamhack. They were very relaxed and had a great mix of play-by-play and analysis. TB is cool but his knowledge is a bit low, most sports casters have alot deeper knowledge of the game than that. Guess he'll learn by working with the IPL.
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haters gonna hate. I like idra as a caster.
User was warned for this post
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At the end of the day TB's viewers will not stick around and Idra's will, to grow the scene you need someone who can educate new viewers to the point where they can appreciate the analysis that the pro gamer commentators do. Otherwise they're just going to lose interest because they will grow tired of such a shallow experience as they'll have none of the depth that the more educated fans have to appreciate. Wrong, if you want to make the scene grow, you need to make the casting entertaining. Many of the people who follow TB won't ever follow Day9, Artosis or any "non-play by play casters". Try to "educate" them and they will leave, becaue they don't care - many don't even play the game.
Players must be educated. Spectators must be entertained. That's two completely different types of audience - and even some players watch the matches for fun, not to learn something. As many people said, you follow Day9 to get better at the game, NOT to relax and enjoy the show. In other words, you only follow professionnal players who cast if you're already playing Starcraft 2. On the other hand, you can certainly follow professional casters even if you don't care about being in master league.
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Sure, IdrA might not be the most entertaining caster, but his insight into the game is so incredible that it easily makes up for the lack of pointless screaming.
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The problem with TB is yes he is good at play by play but that's it. He never casts with someone that's like a Idra that knows what he's actually talking about so it just ends up with him sounding like a fucking retard to people that know more then a move. He's trying to get better at the game (which is good) but till then he really needs a commentator that knows more then what's going on the stream. Fuck If he just did straight up radio casting where we didn't see the game and just listened to his voice maybe then It would be better.
also TB I know you hate everything I say so I will end it with
you should go visit your local dentist every 6 months.
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On May 13 2011 20:47 sanya wrote:
my point is why would you get tb to be the play-by-play guy in one of the biggest tournaments while having other play-by-play commentators available that know way more and are just as exciting ?
see incontrol just for an example of what i'm talking about
he knows a ton about sc2 and he isn't excactly what i'd call boring to listen to
That is a reasonable argument, while conforming to TBs point.
I personally don't like TotalBiscuits style at all. But he was correct on his assesment of Idra as a commentator. And I don't think Idra aspires to be anything but what TB labelled him as, so I would not expect him to be offended by TBs words in the slightest.
For all the issues I have with Idras personality and arguments sometimes, listening to him in his NASL commentary lately has been a treat. He reads and calls plays with a speed and precision that I have not seen/heard anyone do before in SC2 casts.
But he definately needs someone beside him to liven the cast up. It should be entertaining. It serves the e-sports scene well to have enthusiasm injected into the casts, tempered by precise insights.
Theres a reason that most sportscommentaries these days are done in pairs and with the same setup of a speaker and an analyzer/pro. One to deliver flow and one to deliver insight.
That might come at the price of a little overhyping/overenthusiasm, but in the end its better entertainment and therefore better for the development of e-sports.
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I'm a huge IdrA fan and really enjoy listening to him but I think it's completely irrational to deny that IdrA is not particularly animated, which is really all TB is saying here. IdrA is not the guy that's going to get the casual/non-player stoked about watching SC2.
I do think TB went a little overboard in criticizing the article though. I read it myself before I saw TB's response and I felt like all they were really saying is they appreciated IdrA's willingness to be a little blunt and not try to find a silver lining in every situation. They weren't trying to hold IdrA up as an example of what all casters should aspire to be.
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imho casters should be primarily entertaining. Most of the high level players will know what's going on regardless what the casters are telling them, while most of the low level players just want to see an interesting match. I doubt they want to know the really technical stuff behind it. Trying to analyse a match too much during the game feels a bit of an insult to the viewers intelligence. However, I love it when they can get viewers excited by correctly predicting certain engagements or crazy builds. If they fill up the dull parts of a game with jokes or anecdotes on the players, like the first few minutes or when they're just macro'ing up while not engaging, then they're doing a good job.
I feel the same about this with any sport btw, i hate it when football casters are too analytical. Save that for the half-time break or after the match.
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On May 13 2011 20:59 Snickersnee wrote:
The problem with TB is yes you is good at play by play but that's it. He never casts with someone that's like a Idra that knows what he's actually talking about so it just ends up with him sounding like a fucking retard to people that know more then a move. He's trying to get better at the game (which is good) but till then he really needs a commentator that knows more then what's going on the stream. Fuck If he just did straight up radio casting where we didn't see the game and just listened to his voice maybe then It would be better.
also TB I know you hate everything I say so I will end it with
you should go visit your local dentist every 6 months.
He casts together with d.Apollo quite often.
And that last part is not really necessary :|
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On May 13 2011 20:43 Phaded wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 20:38 Ziggitz wrote:
TB's casting philosphy is basically to be a shill for whatever organization is hosting the tournament. "Everyone look at how excited I am, because I am excited you should be excited too!"
It's stupid. It's an insult to the more knowledgeable spectators and it does nothing to bridge the experience gap and educate new spectators. If you don't educate new spectators they quickly become non spectators which is why TB is BAD for the SC2 pro scene. There is no credibility with TB's style of casting and his lack of analytical skills is far worse a concern than Idra's lack of showmanship which is why Bobby Knight can get get a job as an NCAA Basketball Commentator and David Letterman or Conan O'Brien couldn't in a million years. There is no established spectator sport that would abide ignorant casters for a micro second, nor false hype. Without credibility you cheapen the truly exciting moments in the game(imagine TB casting the Nestea vs SC series).
I don't even agree that his casting philosophy is valid or represented in any established spectator sport. There are two very popular forms of dual commentary:
One consists of two very knowledgeable players one of whom does the play by play casting and then during the less eventful moments engages in analysis with his co-commentator. In SC2 usually the more play by play commentator is doing the observing while the commentator playing the analyst is looking everywhere the observing player isn't trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together to figure out exactly what's going on, basically what Tasteless and Artosis do. When Artosis finds something important and exciting he interrupts Tasteless and builds excitement for the viewer by sharing with it with us and educating us at the same time. Otherwise when nothing exciting is actually happening on the screen and Artosis doesn't interject, Tasteless transitions out of the play by play and engages in analysis with Artosis, debating where the game will go from here, what each player should do or what cues they should pick up on, maybe what other players have done in the past or how a player can come back from a disadvantage, even stating that a player is straight up dead and why.
The other is a more Day[9] and DJWheat style where Wheat's game knowledge is clearly inferior to Day[9]'s but he is more than capable of steering the commentary, doing the play by play and generally playing host. He also plays the role of student while Day[9] plays the instructor in way that the audience can both follow the action and learn from the answers Day[9] gives to DJWheat's questions. Wheat can ask a question or pose a theory on what a player intends to do and ask Day[9] to comment on it, or Day[9] can take control if he sees something happening that's important and DJWheat isn't even aware is happening.
These two models are pretty much what you'll find in any well established spectator sport in one form or another and you won't find anything like what TB does. You'll find TB's philosophy of casting at the dog races, the horse track, the rock paper scissors world championship, the world's strongest man competition, the circus. Reputable leagues and Broadcasters hire authorities on the games in question which is why so many ex coaches and players end up becoming commentators. Further more TB's style doesn't really fit into any either of the two models above and they are both the kind of models that can provide the depth that veteran viewers want while providing insight and education for newer viewers at the same time.
At the end of the day TB's viewers will not stick around and Idra's will, to grow the scene you need someone who can educate new viewers to the point where they can appreciate the analysis that the pro gamer commentators do. Otherwise they're just going to lose interest because they will grow tired of such a shallow experience as they'll have none of the depth that the more educated fans have to appreciate. This man is a professional spectator telling the professional caster what is up. Leave the spectating to the spectators and the best casters will have the best following.
You calling Idra a professional caster?
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I don't get the article. It doesn't have much structure, and it seems the article is trying to say that IdrA sucks as a "Caster" and is good as an "analyst".
Seems like the confusion is the semantic difference between a caster and an analyst.
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EPT
