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On May 13 2011 19:36 Ruscour wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 19:35 Swineflew wrote:On May 13 2011 19:31 Ruscour wrote:On May 13 2011 19:24 Coolwhip wrote:
You gotto give TB credit for getting attention.
Yesterday he probably went like: 'MMMmm.... what can I do to get attention and hopefully more subcribers today? .. I got it! Let's write something about casting. Wait, that wont grab that much attention. Aha! I'll add in Idra and how he is bad at casting' Instant thousands of fanboys being all over it. One does not write a goddamn book about an article just for drama and attention. One would just throw out a line or two of smack and drama would flow harder, because idiots wouldn't have to bother thinking about it. You mean a line or two at the start of his article like this? "he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion." Yet another person who didn't read the two lines after that? I give up on this thread.
I wrote the OP. My point is what I quoted was irrelevant to the original article and the response.
Oh and in regards to the compliment after about being the best analyst, it's a lot like starting a sentence with "no offense" and then saying something obviously offensive. IdrA's casting skills never even came up in the original gosu.com article, it was about how he approached casting. In TB's retort to that article, he starts off with saying how bad of a caster IdrA is and then goes on with his rebuttal.
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Can people plz read the article first before jumping to conclusions? :/
Oh yeah, sorry. i forgot that people are on the Internet just to bash others without thinking.
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If this was posted on battlenet or any other community of more casual SC2 plays I would agree with his criticism. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) TL isn't usually for the casual player and is looked at as elitist and whatnot because of this. IdrA's commentary is refreshing because he doesn't create unneeded excitement, he is just a raw analytical commentator who knows the insides and outs of the game and explains in depth why a certain action by a player was right or wrong. At the end of each match he reexamines the turning point in the early game that came to bite the player in the ass at the end.
Tasteless and Artosis also have a bad habit of calling a gg too early because they've played the game so long that they like a respectable gg instead of someone that is sooo far behind just staying in hoping the other player makes the biggest blunder in their life. The reason for Artosis and Tasteless success is the fact that they have chemistry together. I don't know how many times I've actually lold while watching the gsl. It is like watching two of your friends make fun of each other, being sarcastic and hyperbolic about anything on their mind. Not to mention, they know when to stop shootin the shit and commentate the game when it picks up and becomes interesting.
TB has a valid point if he is talking to the general casual population, but I think most people on TL would take IdrA's insight into decisions made in the game over HD or Husky try to make an obviously boring match exciting.
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On May 13 2011 19:39 Swineflew wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 19:36 Ruscour wrote:On May 13 2011 19:35 Swineflew wrote:On May 13 2011 19:31 Ruscour wrote:On May 13 2011 19:24 Coolwhip wrote:
You gotto give TB credit for getting attention.
Yesterday he probably went like: 'MMMmm.... what can I do to get attention and hopefully more subcribers today? .. I got it! Let's write something about casting. Wait, that wont grab that much attention. Aha! I'll add in Idra and how he is bad at casting' Instant thousands of fanboys being all over it. One does not write a goddamn book about an article just for drama and attention. One would just throw out a line or two of smack and drama would flow harder, because idiots wouldn't have to bother thinking about it. You mean a line or two at the start of his article like this? "he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion." Yet another person who didn't read the two lines after that? I give up on this thread. I wrote the OP. My point is what I quoted was irrelevant to the original article and the response.
You also titled your thread TB bashes IdrA's casting, when it CLEARLY was not bashing IdrA in any sort of way. Talk about stirring drama up.
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totalbiscuit is a really fun and great caster. and well, he is both right and wrong.
it is true that idra is not a very good caster. and if left to casting ability alone, he would not be there, plain and simple.
on the flip side, he is the biggest foreigner celebrity we have. and as such, it makes what he says more entertaining, purely because he is the one saying it.
all in all i much prefer casts with no talk of anything strategic. do it after the game. focus on what is going on, what is exciting. build and create drama and tension. half the time whatever assumptions you make are going to be thrown out the window, anyway.
it is my biggest pet peeve with day9, who was a wonderful broodwar caster. his casting then was to just entertain. 99% of the people watching just wanted to learn more so they could enjoy watching the games more, because they would never have the skill to actually play broodwar at that level anyway. but the focus has shifted in sc2 from "lets just watch this and have fun and see how great these people can play and what cool shit they are gonna do" to "lets watch this and lets see if i can teach you something."
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LOL TB :D that guy is "funny", why should he even have a opinion, hes not even a good caster.
User was warned for this post
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I think that game knowledge just makes the casters thoughts and commentating so much more appealing, beacuse of the fact that you KNOW that they know what they are talking about.
When a caster without much exeprience as far as playing the game goes, all the "play-by-play" and "hyping" they do during battles or drops etc, is pretty much worthless. You know that the commentator doesn`t know what the outcome will be or why this is happening or how big of an impact it is going to have. Time and time again, play-by-play casters calls the game over, or calls the outcome of a battle, pretty much wrong every single time.
It`s actually so annoying to listen to unexperienced casters, beacuse it doesn`t give you anything, anything. You know what is going to, you can look at your screen and tell what`s going on, and when they do open their mouth, it`s bullshit most of the time.
Infact, a casting-duo with two play-by-play casters,as TB mentioned, is pointless and utterly retarded. I would much rather prefer two "colour" commentator. Artosis and IdrA, would probably be too good for most people to grasp how good it is. Artosis, one of few, if not the only one that handles both aspect of casting, "colouring" and "play-by-play". Setling as one of the two, just doesn`t cut it for me. Well, everything I say might be wrong most of the time, and maybe i don`t know too much about the game, maybe I AM silver league material, maybe I don`t know anything about any of the players, maybe I don`t know much about the 2 other races apart from terran, maybe I suck at casting, but hell I hype the shit out of every single engagement.
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In my opinion, when a duo is casting, the pro-gamer-caster should NEVER be doing the "AAAH" "SNEAKY SNEAKY" "ZOMFG ROFL" "OLOLOL DROP" part of the casting. What IdrA does is downright perfect. Cold and almost emotionless analysis of the game from the point of the gamers themselves, nothing fancy. that way the "professional" caster can do all their exciting shoutouts to pump up the adrenaline.
but its quite interesting, how tb has an opinion about this and seems forced to throw it out there -.-
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On May 13 2011 19:33 Nayl wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 19:28 Koshi wrote:
Yeah, the problem is that somebody called IdrA his casting refreshing and more pleasant than the casting done by TB.
TB can't handle that so he goes into an offensive mode where he achieves to win some people their hearth by using the terminology of casting to criticize IdrA his sort of casting.
Then TL.net doesn't understand that TB is criticizing IdrA type of casting to make his own casting seem more "legit". But they make this completely about the persons IdrA and TB.
But the bottom line is: TB didn't like that an article said that his sort of casting was possible inferior to the casting style of IdrA. Yes, that is probably what triggered TB's response, but that doesn't make what he is pointing out any less valid. His casting methods are in fact, "legit", proven by the fact that the most popular sc caster is hd/husky, and not some analytical casters.
I am not saying that TB isn't legit. I putted it into "" because that is what TB tries to prove in his response. Best case scenario: TB is a nitpicker and can't handle that an article talks solely about a type of casting which didn't represented his own.
Why? I don't know. I have assumptions though.
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You also say play by play means talking what's on the screen. This is NOT the case. Play by play caster is the one who constantly have to talk about something, whether it be about the player, the game itself, the weather or w/e in order to not have any awkward pauses.
Not really, play by play means exactly what it says, taking about the plays that are taking place.
I don't think that's what he mean when he talks about casting method. When there are more than 1 caster, it is obviously going to be more entertaining if casters engage in small talks about the game or the players. However, TB often casts himself so he must talk constantly about the events, otherwise there would be too many awkward pauses. If he were to cast in a multi person set up, of COURSE he has to talk less.
Not really my point, my point is he does too much play by play and not enough analysis. Casting yourself doesn't really work well, kind of my point. Also baseball has pauses in the commentary, although brief, you don't need to just talk constantly if you're saying nothing of worth.
TB's main point is casters are there to keep up the tension. Commentators are there to give insights. It is not exactly one guy constantly yapping away while the other guy occasionally jumps in to make a comment; their jobs are much more broad when it comes to multiple people casting together, but TB simplified for the sake of argument.
That's pretty much what I said. However I don't think totalbiscut does a good job in that aspect, he does play by play almost exclusively.
also, not everyone who watches starcraft plays starcraft. New viewers aren't going to necessarily have the basic understanding of the game to understand what 'commentators' like IdrA is saying.
I wasn't honestly commenting on IdrA tbh. Also I mentioned that announcers / casters are there to explain the situation, to build hype / tension as well as help out the new listeners.
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On May 13 2011 19:35 Swineflew wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 19:31 Ruscour wrote:On May 13 2011 19:24 Coolwhip wrote:
You gotto give TB credit for getting attention.
Yesterday he probably went like: 'MMMmm.... what can I do to get attention and hopefully more subcribers today? .. I got it! Let's write something about casting. Wait, that wont grab that much attention. Aha! I'll add in Idra and how he is bad at casting' Instant thousands of fanboys being all over it. One does not write a goddamn book about an article just for drama and attention. One would just throw out a line or two of smack and drama would flow harder, because idiots wouldn't have to bother thinking about it. You mean a line or two at the start of his article like this? "he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion."
You seem to take this pretty personal. You posted your opinion some page ago and thats fine. Why dont you leave other people have their opinions? All your posts on the last 10 or so pages do nothing but question other people. dont do it! Let the readers decides what they think of every single post and don`t take yourself to serious. imagine everyone would start to post like you do right know. Even right know it is a pain to read through all the comments of people who clearly have not even read the OP, but when guys like you start quoting all kinds of other peoples posts, just because they dont agree with it, it gets out of line.
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On May 13 2011 19:41 Nayl wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 19:39 Swineflew wrote:On May 13 2011 19:36 Ruscour wrote:On May 13 2011 19:35 Swineflew wrote:On May 13 2011 19:31 Ruscour wrote:On May 13 2011 19:24 Coolwhip wrote:
You gotto give TB credit for getting attention.
Yesterday he probably went like: 'MMMmm.... what can I do to get attention and hopefully more subcribers today? .. I got it! Let's write something about casting. Wait, that wont grab that much attention. Aha! I'll add in Idra and how he is bad at casting' Instant thousands of fanboys being all over it. One does not write a goddamn book about an article just for drama and attention. One would just throw out a line or two of smack and drama would flow harder, because idiots wouldn't have to bother thinking about it. You mean a line or two at the start of his article like this? "he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion." Yet another person who didn't read the two lines after that? I give up on this thread. I wrote the OP. My point is what I quoted was irrelevant to the original article and the response. You also titled your thread TB bashes IdrA's casting, when it CLEARLY was not bashing IdrA in any sort of way. Talk about stirring drama up.
Ok, keep ignoring the fact that I said the quote wasn't necessary or relevant to the topic being discussed.
It's like me saying, Nayl smells and can't ride a bike, but his points when posting are usually based on facts and well thought out. Do you see where the personal attacks are even though I complimented you?
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to be honest id much prefer the analytical style of commentary than the 'fake excitement' many of the casters in the community are doing. im sure the casual gamer would be able to understand whats going on on the screen, which is what a lot of the non-analytical casters are talking about most of the time.
as for calling gg early, why not? its pretty evident that the person as lost, why over hype nothing?
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IdrA's better that Totalbiscuit. Give me analysis and knowledge over loud annoying british accent anyday.
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On May 13 2011 19:35 Ruscour wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 19:30 Swineflew wrote:On May 13 2011 19:24 Ruscour wrote:On May 13 2011 19:21 AndAgain wrote:On May 13 2011 19:13 Dommk wrote:
As a caster IdrA was bad. But as an analyst he was doing a good job.
Knowledge about the game isn't even a big issue. Khaldor was pulling 6k+ viewers during assembly, pulling in non German speaking viewers, I was one of them, there is a lot more to good casting than just game knowledge.
For what NASL is, Idra was fine, at least IMO, but I wouldn't want him casting something big like a Dreamhack Idra is not bad as a caster. Many people like myself just want someone who is very knowledgeable to give analytic commentary in a calm, collected manner. That's exactly what he does. The whole thing about him needing voice lessens or whatever is a matter of subjective preference. TB seems to think that everyone should strive to sound like himself. Most people are not like you. The majority of people would rather hear excitement than their math lecturer (though I like my math lecturer). Preference in this thread is offtopic, but in any case, IdrA is indeed bad as a caster, he is good as an analyst, which is what TB said. It's just a shame that 80% of people are not reading the OP. See, here is the argument, a lot of people don't think IdrA is a bad caster and his style fits with the strategic theme of the game. I'm not going to be as presumptuous as to speak on behalf of "most people" the way you did, but I feel like there is a good number of people that enjoy that style of casting. Hence the disagreement. Caster, not analyst. Would you really watch an IdrA solo cast (where was both) for fun and not for strategy? I wasn't being presumptuous, it's fact. TB references it himself on Reddit; Husky, HD and TB's casts pull more viewers than any of the tournaments. Hope that makes things clearer about what I was saying.
Did I miss the memo when the community decided to refine the definition of 'caster'?. As of right now Idra is a caster for NASL. No amount of nitpicking niches will change it.
Also as a response to your question, yes I would watch Idra solo cast and have. I strongly suggest you watch his EG tip videos when he breaks down his own replays.
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On May 13 2011 19:33 Nayl wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 19:28 Koshi wrote:On May 13 2011 19:21 cnas wrote:On May 13 2011 19:17 Rayven wrote:
Totalbiscuit calling someone else a bad caster. Oh the irony. Seriously? Wtf are you talking about? Maybe you should read his post first. Also what you think of TB is kind of off topic Yeah, the problem is that somebody called IdrA his casting refreshing and more pleasant than the casting done by TB. TB can't handle that so he goes into an offensive mode where he achieves to win some people their hearth by using the terminology of casting to criticize IdrA his sort of casting. Then TL.net doesn't understand that TB is criticizing IdrA type of casting to make his own casting seem more "legit". But they make this completely about the persons IdrA and TB. But the bottom line is: TB didn't like that an article said that his sort of casting was possible inferior to the casting style of IdrA. Yes, that is probably what triggered TB's response, but that doesn't make what he is pointing out any less valid. His casting methods are in fact, "legit", proven by the fact that the most popular sc caster is hd/husky, and not some analytical casters.
Large part of HD/Huskys success is that they were sort of first movers on the SC2 scene by casting in beta. If they had tried making an appearance now they would drown in the sea of just as mediocre and uninteresting casters showing up every day on youtube.
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Why call idra "a bad caster" when he isn't a caster?!?!?
He doesn't even want to be a caster or anything. He just did some commentating for fun and now suddenly he's a caster worthy to compare to other full time casters like TB himself. Sigh...
So yeah the comparison he makes makes no sense at all and he ultimately is trash talking idra. I like TB but I don't like how he's bashing people left and right and dismissing criticism of his own ACTUAL casting.
And just because people realize this doesn't make them "fanboys" or w/e shit people throws at anyone remotely suggesting anything that can be perceived as "defending" idra.
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On May 13 2011 19:46 Koshi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 19:33 Nayl wrote:On May 13 2011 19:28 Koshi wrote:On May 13 2011 19:21 cnas wrote:On May 13 2011 19:17 Rayven wrote:
Totalbiscuit calling someone else a bad caster. Oh the irony. Seriously? Wtf are you talking about? Maybe you should read his post first. Also what you think of TB is kind of off topic Yeah, the problem is that somebody called IdrA his casting refreshing and more pleasant than the casting done by TB. TB can't handle that so he goes into an offensive mode where he achieves to win some people their hearth by using the terminology of casting to criticize IdrA his sort of casting. Then TL.net doesn't understand that TB is criticizing IdrA type of casting to make his own casting seem more "legit". But they make this completely about the persons IdrA and TB. But the bottom line is: TB didn't like that an article said that his sort of casting was possible inferior to the casting style of IdrA. Yes, that is probably what triggered TB's response, but that doesn't make what he is pointing out any less valid. His casting methods are in fact, "legit", proven by the fact that the most popular sc caster is hd/husky, and not some analytical casters. I am not saying that TB isn't legit. I putted it into "" because that is what TB tries to prove in his response. Best case scenario: TB is a nitpicker and can't handle that an article talks solely about a type of casting which didn't represented his own. Why? I don't know. I have assumptions though.
? Would you accuse Diggity of same thing? He posts same material basically agreeing with TB later in that thread. TB was simply disagreeing with the article, and I understand his sentiment because the article he was disagreeing on basically called out on every casters like TB. I suppose haters are gona hate.
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On May 13 2011 19:18 Ruscour wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 19:17 Rayven wrote:
Totalbiscuit calling someone else a bad caster. Oh the irony. Why oh why do people never ever actually read the OP....it's painful...
sorry to quote train, but to be fair he DID say idra was a bad caster. he said he was a good "analyst" and then went on to educate on the difference between the two. i can see where you can infer that Ruscour was being hasty and bias, but c'mon, as someone so eloquently put on a random reddit thread "he who is without error rally the first baneling"
as far as this whole discussion goes, i saw NUMEROUS replies by tb to blind hate posts, but he never mentions WHY he went out on such a limb to make this point to an article imho he kinda took more serious than what it was....was it to once and for all dismiss the disinfo that an analyst and an announcer are two different positions? if so, why not reply to the author directly and ask him to put some of that in a post script edit? he would have gotten it no problem. why post it on reddit? was it to emphasize the importance of having a pure play by play guy and an analyst in sc2 matches, in order to make them entertaining and appealing to a wider base? that is a can of worms imo; and the jury is STILL out on the perfect "casting storm" for sc2 or rts esports or whatever esports (tastosis is the best imho and either one of them know more than tb does about sc thats for sure)
the only thing i can think of is to take a page from idra himself...controversy sells. i agree with 90 percent of what he says, but it comes off as a troll because idra is NOT trying to be a "caster" like how tb wants to be one....this point isnt brought up in the original article because again, its about what qualities you can TAKE from idra's commentary, not what idra needs to add to become day[10]...
and did he seal an ipl 2 return? he just might have. who knows what the intentions were unless its in that youtube reading of his rant, which i will watch after posting this.
edit: i also wanna address the whole "well [play-by-play] casters are a MUST for the growth of esports because its "popular" (the husky/hd theory)....i disagree 100 percent. you dont want this to become something its not, even at the sacrifice of a few sponsors to whore for, it seems like it would be more self serving to someone like tb who stands to make $$$ off views, but i love watching gsl because i get treated like a sc2 enthusiast not just another youtube ad click or whatever. saying what can garner the most popular support as being whats best for something is akin to saying jackie robinson shouldn't play baseball because he's black, i mean, think of the casual viewer who doesn't want to see or hear those "negroes" on the field! certainly you would have been more "popular" with more "financial support" for not doing so...does that make it right? is that putting the people most passionate about the game and the game most of all at heart?
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EPT
