EPTPTR 1.3.3 Cannon Placement with new Pylon Radius - Page 4
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x6Paramore
Canada130 Posts
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jere
United States121 Posts
More than one Pylon powering buildings. This does not change with the PTR change. Do it, live longer dont have to GG if one Pylon goes down. | ||
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iPBioOrMech
Turkey297 Posts
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
On April 30 2011 09:31 Malpractice.248 wrote: So, you have to place 1 more pylon, and/or wall smarter? Not to mention, u have FF to block ramp. Didnt know warp in for stalkers was nerfed, my bad u cant go up the wall into enemy P base where he cant reach the pylon (7.5 range). countering cannon rushing w/your own cannons? bro, idk if u know this, but their pylon has only 6.5 range, too.... So... its no different....? lol DT warp ins, same as stalker. U can still warp them in. Hell, i see people warping them in w/void prisms. And they have a range of like 2 or something tiny. Seems to work for them. Voidray warp ins? Last time i checked, voids cant be warped in....? Offensive 4 gating wont make a difference. You STILL CAN WARP IN. JUST NOT IN RIDIC SPOTS nope, this kills the 4 gate since the only real way it worked anyway was with ramp breaking with warping in on the high ground... which is incredibly easy to handle with 5.5 range pylon. | ||
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wxwx
527 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On April 30 2011 12:38 x6Paramore wrote: indirect nerf to cannon rushes? yay! Oh Combat-EX what will you do know? I kid I kid anyway, OT - I dont see a major issue here since you should have more than one pylon powering your stuff anyway and there are smarter places to put cannons than where they were put in the pictures. As an illustration of pylon power field change though it is very effective. | ||
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GagnarTheUnruly
United States655 Posts
On April 30 2011 09:54 Mastermind wrote: Why are people saying "now you have to think about building placement"? Protoss already had to do that. Now it is just a lot harder. The pylon radius nerf is suppose to nerf 4gate, but it nerfs protoss in way more ways than just that. I hope this change doesnt make it to the live server. 4gate will already be nerfed enough with the warp gate time change imo. I kind of agree with this. I haven't played the PTR and I'm no great player anyways, but it's not like there was ever a ton of room for buildings with the old radius and pylons are a precious resource in the early game. A 2-base toss with 80 supply only has 8 pylons. It's not as much as it sounds like given that several of those are powering the simcity and the remainder are needed for in-base vision & power coverage, warp in for the natural, and possibly cannons at the main and natural. And stalker warpins are going to be even more of a PITA. | ||
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MisterTea
United Kingdom1047 Posts
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loveeholicce
Korea (South)785 Posts
On April 30 2011 10:52 RemrafGrez wrote: Here are some examples where pros need all that 1.3.2 pylon range, and please don't tell me they could spare 100 minerals for another pylon at this point in the game.  Most of these are from recent tournies like recent GSL or MLG. If it's not OK to do screenshots of GSL someone please delete this post if you have to. GSL, Alicia vs Losira- Trying to wall from ramp to nexus, no spare pylons. ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/8gnRt.jpg) GSL, Coca vs Squirtle- No pylons to spare, trying to wall off and cover two distant sides with 1 pylon. ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/xgkIi.jpg) GSL, July vs Huk - he put pylon in middle of minerals because he moved all his probes already, but an example of 1 pylon and 2 cannons - ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/JO698.jpg) Root vs EG, KiwiKaki vs Idra - notice how he puts cannons at max distance so he has more room to warp-in and cannons can cover each other, and no one pylon taken out unpowers a cannon- ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/xBPMc.jpg) Root vs EG, Kiwikaki vs Idra - he puts buildings at max distance to semi wall off with forge and better protect and hide robo bay- ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/rgCGB.jpg) MC vs Check - Notice how he needs to wall of his natural from nexus to ramp, no spare pylons for other side of natural nexus. ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/Htfof.jpg) K, pic #1 what exactly is that pylon powering? Don't tell me you're refering to the cyber core in the main. Pic #2 move that pylon up a bit and do the exact same thing, except with 1 drone on hold position on that empty pixel beside the mineral and cyber core. Pic #3 I see absolutely nothing. You're telling me Huk at that stage in the game only had that 1 pylon? He couldn't place 1 pf the other 8 pylons in his base beside his mineral line? Pic #3 Move the pylon to the right and voila. Pic #4 He's on 3 base. If you dont think he 1) can spare 100 minerals or 2) has a bunch of redundant pylons in his main, one of which could be placed at his natural then I don't know what to say. Pic #5 I'm sorry, are we looking at the same picture? I see 1 pylon beside a nexus, and one beside his ramp. I don't see how its indicative of anything. It's hilarious that people think a slightly reduced radius will actually have any bearing on building placement besides "think it through just a tad more". People will complain about anything >_> | ||
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DeckOneBell
United States526 Posts
I think it's a pretty huge change, it's going to change a lot of sim city, and force protoss players to place their pylons in an entirely different way. Imagine if you had to place your supply depots a different way, or had to more overlords in a certain fashion that you aren't used to, it could very well have a fairly large impact on gameplay. I don't know exactly how to feel about it yet, it seems a little much, but I guess we'll probably get used to it. A lot of tricky pylon placements won't work any more, at the very least. I don't mind that it hurts 4gate and hurts cannon rushes, it just seems a little unnecessary to me. Further editing: To the poster above me, it's not as though a build time increase or decrease of a few seconds changes THAT MUCH, but it's at the very least annoying to deal with. I just don't think the pylon radius change is necessary. That, to me, wasn't an issue with protoss. | ||
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NicolBolas
United States1388 Posts
I think it's a pretty huge change, it's going to change a lot of sim city, and force protoss players to place their pylons in an entirely different way. Imagine if you had to place your supply depots a different way, or had to more overlords in a certain fashion that you aren't used to, it could very well have a fairly large impact on gameplay. Of course it will have an impact on gameplay; nobody's saying it won't. There are build arrangements that will have to be done differently now. In some cases, you're just going to need another Pylon. But if the game had shipped with the 5.5 radius, nobody would be complaining because that would simply be the way it was. This is just something that the Protoss players are going to have to adjust their builds to compensate for. Just like they have to adjust for the longer WarpGate research time. It's not going to weaken them significantly. | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On April 30 2011 09:46 thebole1 wrote: simply you need to think a litle now before you place building... People keep saying this as if protoss don't already have to put a lot of thought into building placement. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
I've never been a fan of changes that limit game play and it really seems like they are taking so many strategic options out of the game with each patch. Last patch, complete removal of KA when a nerf would have been fine. Before or during that time aggressive bunkers took another hit, reapers took a hit, aggressive rax's took a hit, zealot build time took a hit (though thats being reverted), and more. All of these changes limited the broad spectrum of openers, which to me, is really stupid if the game is supposed to be dynamic and interesting. Now lets look what happens when they buff units. Thors strike cannons get buffed and cool thor timing pushes start popping up until now where we are seeing some heavy thor builds in TvP that are really strong. BCs get a speed buff and now they are a solid TvT finisher unit that can pack a punch. Infestors get buffed and now they are everywhere and quite useful... zerg compositions have never looked so fresh and so new. Roaches got a range buff a while back and for a month zerg felt unbeatable until roach play was considered standard. Hallucination research time reduced and now we see protoss using them to scout and more. Phoenix have seen more play... When you BUFF units you create new and clever ideas. When you NERF units you take away ideas and make the game bland. I'm not suggesting you should ONLY buff, but I think tweaks need to be alot more careful than this because if they eliminate threat after threat then you wont have cool and exciting tactics anymore. You'll just have macro games where your two balls touch and someone COMES out on top (shout out to sotg podcast) | ||
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LAN-f34r
New Zealand2099 Posts
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On April 30 2011 13:23 Offhand wrote: People keep saying this as if protoss don't already have to put a lot of thought into building placement. Seriously... im pretty sure zerg is the only race that can completely macro off muscle memory without thinking | ||
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Loki57
United States292 Posts
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junemermaid
United States981 Posts
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loveeholicce
Korea (South)785 Posts
On April 30 2011 13:14 DeckOneBell wrote: I honestly think protoss players giving legitimate feedback about the pylon radius nerf (which is possibly slightly whiny, admittedly) get a LOT more shit than when zerg gives feedback. I think it's a pretty huge change, it's going to change a lot of sim city, and force protoss players to place their pylons in an entirely different way. Imagine if you had to place your supply depots a different way, or had to more overlords in a certain fashion that you aren't used to, it could very well have a fairly large impact on gameplay. I don't know exactly how to feel about it yet, it seems a little much, but I guess we'll probably get used to it. A lot of tricky pylon placements won't work any more, at the very least. I don't mind that it hurts 4gate and hurts cannon rushes, it just seems a little unnecessary to me. Further editing: To the poster above me, it's not as though a build time increase or decrease of a few seconds changes THAT MUCH, but it's at the very least annoying to deal with. I just don't think the pylon radius change is necessary. That, to me, wasn't an issue with protoss. Because the "im gonna have to change my sim city" complaints are so hilariously overblown. Seriously its not THAT huge of an impact. Its gonna have to force you to rearrange your sim city a bit and possibly add the 2nd pylon at ur natural instead of just ur first. THat's basically it. AFter the very first few buildings the change will have absolutely no effect on building placement whatsoever. If you're covering crucial areas like your mineral line and cannons with just 1 pylon you're already doing something wrong and needlessly shooting yourself in the food. It's just ridiculous to me that people are complaining about this. I don't see how having to rearrange your first pylon, gateway, forge, and 2nd pylon will have any bearing on anything beyond the early midgame. | ||
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junemermaid
United States981 Posts
On April 30 2011 09:29 RemrafGrez wrote: @ Datum, I know what you mean. And sometimes I would agree if I'm way ahead. But sometimes every 100 minerals counts. And if you are at a risky expansion, you want to spend the least amount of minerals to defend it. On those maps, players may just avoid any cannons and put a pylon far away to warp guys in. I don't know, but I don't like the limited options. Sometimes I like to put 1 cannon near nexus and 1 slightly far away to warp guys in if they drop on my minerals. Or one far away to spot drops. How many pylons do I want to lose if I lose my expansion? If I'm bulding gateways there, then OK, more pylons is fine. But if I'm not... I don't know. You're concerned about losing pylons if you lose your expansion? I think losing an additional pylon is the least of your concerns. | ||
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Ponyo
United States1231 Posts
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