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On May 02 2011 02:43 br0fivE wrote:
if you think about it, its a buff.
now since your second pylon will be closer to the other, so situations where you have 1 pylon powering everything getting sniped wont be so common
its not a big deal at all.
I can't tell if you're trolling. Because there's no possible way to construe a 25% reduction in pylon power range to be a buff. You could always have built the second pylon. There was nothing stopping you.
That said, it's not a huge deal, just a minor nerf that will mostly effect forge builds (either cannon rushes or forge expand) and (most prominently) the offensive 4-gate. But it's not a buff.
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On May 02 2011 03:55 Sueco wrote:
This is great. Finally pylon sniping is a viable tactical option as opposed to just killing the buildings. You need to make a lot of the things for supply anyways.
Not sure what you mean, now there will be less buildings powered by a single pylon, so if anything, any single pylon is now less important as a tactical target.
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Cannons were probably the strongest, cheapest, easiest static defense in the game, I'm glad to see their effectiveness slightly reduced via the pylon problem.
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not a big deal why would you wanna let mutas kill a pylon and powerdown 12 cannons
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put a pylon in ur mineral line?
sorry i didnt read any replies or full thread but i noticed in the pictures i didnt see a pylon in the mineral line which will obviously cover a much larger area.
Its regular for all races to put defenses in their mineral line to increase defense whilst slightly lowering economy.
edit: yeah read a few posts - my points pretty much been made.
sozzles
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I am WAY more worried about you worrying about this so much than the actual change.
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People were easily able to place cannons in BW with the pylon's tiny radius. I don't think it'll be game-breaking.
(However, for some reaon I always felt like it was the buildings' grid getting smaller as opposed to the pylon's radius itself.)
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Woah! I didn't know the pylon radius was nerfed that hard. Good post.
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This change really doesn't effect mid late game. In fact, I might even say its good because it will put players in habit of not relying on one pylon to power everything.
Having said that, the biggest implication of this outside of pvp is pvz. Early expand simcity will be harder. Each pylon when executing an FE needs to be carefuly planned to power everything, wall off nicely, and to spot all around your base (how many people lost to nydus?).
Think about this: roaches getting 1 more range made them stupidly good for early aggression. Pylon radius getting reduced 1 will make simcity much harder to that extent. For example, now you cannot put two big buildings(gate, forge, cyber) in line next to each other radially from the pylon. This is actually a big deal when you can't just afford to put down a random pylon at your whim. Also, it still begs the question: is it necessary at this point where people have found ways around 4gate?
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You can still place a canon in front and behind your nexus with only 1 pylon.
The point to the nerf was that Protoss could place a proxy pylon outside your base AND out of stalker range AND be able to warp in behind your wall. Now after the pylon power nerf in order to warp in units behind the wall Protoss will have to place their proxy pylon in range of Stalker fire.
1.3.2 Pylon = 7.5 - (.5 range needed for room to warp units) >>[7 range from the wall]
1.3.3 Pylon = 6.5 - (.5 range needed for room to warp units) >>[6 range from the wall]
Stalker attack range = 6
Marauder attack range = 6
Depending on their placement of the proxy pylon your units should be able to kill it before he warps into your main (provided you scout it immediately).
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yea i think the pvz changes are what blizzard might be missing or looking past
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I dont understand all the people saying this is not a probelm at all...
It's a nerf, period.
and the change wasnt intended to reduce Protoss effectiveness by any means, it's supposed to just fix stupid 4 gate PVP action.
All the stupid comments about "just put another pylon there bro" are useless, it's affecting other matchups outside of PvP without it beeing intended to do so...
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doomed:
I dont see why its such a big deal that protoss now has to think a bit when placing their buildings??
I wish they had to think when placing their Force Fields. 8)
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On May 02 2011 06:44 Angueo wrote:doomed:Show nested quote +I dont see why its such a big deal that protoss now has to think a bit when placing their buildings?? I wish they had to think when placing their Force Fields. 8)
tyler, on sotg said that way back when he first starting playing sc2 he was dumfounded by the range on the pylon so he thinks its just going back to what it should have been. i agree, and despite the races having to be different and all... its still better than creep since you dont have to place pylons by pylons. ikik creep makes shit go faster (:
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I haven't seen a single post in this entire thread that successfully argues that this nerf is a legitimate balance problem. It's honestly not that hard to deal with.
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Example from recent GSL game of Bomber vs IMnuts of why it's bad to put pylons behind minerals in a lot of positions. You end up blocking your zealots from getting to the drop and give the enemy safe areas of escape.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/iZuSU.jpg)
And I have done some tests on 1.3.2 with the old pylon range, and stalkers can always hit the pylons that are made to warp guys in. Like I said before, it only takes 2 stalkers to kill a pylon if you spot it quick, or 3 if you spot it late. And all Protoss units have more site range than pylon warpin range so you just need to place units near the edge of your base. And I found that any tricky warpin spots that allow less zealots to warpin also allow less stalkers to hit... but the up side is that stalkers standing in the warpin field even deny warpins. I guess Blizzard just wants immortals and sentries to be able to hit pylons too.
6 o'clock on Metalopolis
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/zmCnW.jpg)
Others on 9 o'clock Metal
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/t9pHW.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/qZz7F.jpg)
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On May 01 2011 05:19 Geovu wrote:I decided to acquire some screenshots of BW to compare the Pylon Radius between games. I thought this would be a good idea since a lot of people in this thread have been talking about. First, OP's pics for comparison: Now le BW: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/iXCbf.jpg) ^This picture aptly demonstrates how far you can place cannons in relation to the nexus. Note that I could have built cannons within the mineral line, and they would be right up against the limit of the pylon radius^ ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SF2F9.jpg) ^This second picture is to show how far out you can place cannons on a lone pylon, without and interrupting nexus and assimilator cluttering up the picture^ These next three pictures I found quite interesting: + Show Spoiler +What I discovered: -In Brood War, a pylon's radius extends 4 hexes upwards and downwards.
-A pylon's radius extends 8 hexes left and right.
-However, for cannons and cannons alone the pylon only has an effective radius of 7 in width. This means you can only have 3 cannons of width instead of 4.
-A nexus, gateways and stargates are all 4 hexes wide by 3 high
-Most other buildings (Core, Robo, etc) are 3 hexes wide by 2 high
Vs Starcraft 2:
-Currently, pylon radius is 7.5, to be 6.5 in next patch
-Nexus is 4 by 4, virtually all other buildings are 3 by 3
You must note that because pylons in BW do not extend as high as their width, and most buildings are not square, it is hard to directly compare between games as to how much this effects gameplay. Also, cannons only had 100/100 hp/shields. In conclusion: Iunno lol.
Thanks for doing the research, really good numbers!
Seeing that the poster above could not find a comparison between BW pylons and pre/post patch pylons, I decided that we can look at the pylons in terms of area.
To calculate area, we need radii/major and minor axis
+ Show Spoiler +BW pylon extends 8 squares to the left and 8 to the right, and 4 squares up/down.
1.3.2 pylon has radius 7.5 squares in all directions.
1.3.3 pylon has radius 6.5 squares in all directions.
Using the formula for the are of an ellipse for BW pylon and circle for SC2 pylon, I found this:
+ Show Spoiler +Effective area of BW pylon: 100.5 square units
Effective area of 7.5 radius pylon: 176.7 square units
Effective area of 6.5 radius pylon: 132.7 square units.
It's pretty obvious that SC2 pylons are far superior and have more area because of the 3D element of the game, regardless of pylon nerf. Yet, no-one seemed to complain in BW...
Also, interestingly enough, BW buildings have different dimensions to SC2
BW gate/core: 4x3 units = 12 square units
SC2 gate/core: 3x3 units = 9 square units
As though not enough, SC2 pylons can further utilize this advantage due to smaller building dimensions.
Just my 2cents of analysis.
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On April 30 2011 09:23 doomed wrote:
I dont see why its such a big deal that protoss now has to think a bit when placing their buildings??
Its never going to happen that you are running 10 cannons of 1 pylon anyway, and if you are... enough said.
lol wow please don't start that crap. Building placement is the most important to protoss.
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Just build additional pylons.
I for one am glad that pylons which are placed so that protoss can warp in inside the main are now easier to snipe, especially PvP.
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Don't most people tend to use the cannons as a stall tactic making a wall at an entrance? The change doesn't affect that too much. Placing them any way you are explaining makes the pylon have a vulnerable spot where it could easily be picked off and your cannons are worthless anyways patch or not.
Is it an annoyance? Yes, but I much rather have a PvP Match Up where I don't lose to a 4gate based upon not playing perfect. I'm sure I have lost more PvP matchups to a silly mistake than I will ever lose to the pylon having slightly less range.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/g7XSm.jpg)
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