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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On April 27 2011 05:57 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 05:54 Niruz wrote:
So on the large maps, banshees will be literally worthless vs zerg and bunker pressure into expansion will be worthless, I guess 14 CC and building a wall not even jinro could match is the way to play on maps like tal'darim now dude, what are you even talking about spore crawler root time that's the amount of time it takes to root a sproe crawler that you are moving from one spot to another and why will bunker pressure be worthless? if you get the bunker up it probably already succeeded, and if you do have to salvage it then you've lost 25 minerals, OMG! let's just complain about anything and everything we can possibly find to complain about
Let's not forget that spore crawlers will only detect if they are rooted. If you move a spore crawler, your (cloaked) banshee can still maneuver around to find a blind spot or escape.
Also, bunkers weren't salvageable in BW so be happy you can still get 75 minerals back.
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I don't think Spore Crawler root time is significant for early AA.
I think it's significant for early detection. Since a rooted Spore Colony is the only detector until Overseer, and a LOT of Zerg builds delay Overseer.
It's also a big deal for Spore use out on the creep, of course.
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Decent patch I guess. Archons at least getting some shots of on marauders before dying is nice. Dunno about the pylon change though; I get why they're doing it, with all manner of hard-to-spot warp-ins, but it screws up building placement and cannon rushes which makes me think it isn't really worth it.
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On April 27 2011 05:21 willyallthewei wrote:
This hasn't been mentioned much in this thread, but I think this could end up being a pretty big buff patch for protoss' ability to expand in PVT early game.
By cutting down gateway build times, it may allow toss players to 3-gate expand with fast hallu and delay warpgates and robo for an early second nexus.
Buffed gateways >> can afford to delay warpgates even longer >> hallucination before warpgate research >> earlier scout >> earlier expand/tech decision
I dunno about 3 gate openings, but One Gate Core Expand just got quite a bit stronger (provided the patch goes trough). The Warp Tech timing shouldn't be a major detriment whereas faster gateway build time is huge....
I'm definitely interested in seeing what one or two early gateways with a Core can do now.
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Pylon nerf probably came to make warping units up a ramp harder to pull off, and warping in units across gaps tougher as well.
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Won't 2 gateway pressure vs zerg be unstoppable if the zerg expands?
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On April 27 2011 06:11 SupremeMe wrote:
Won't 2 gateway pressure vs zerg be unstoppable if the zerg expands?
Well, it'll be just like the old days. Unstoppable? No, but it'll be a standard PvZ strategy again, at least on non-GSL maps.
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On April 27 2011 06:11 SupremeMe wrote:
Won't 2 gateway pressure vs zerg be unstoppable if the zerg expands?
no not at all if they pool decently early. but if u see 2gates u know the p is teching slower so it's not a big deal.
now if the zerg goes hat first they are screwed. but it already was pretty dangerous to try to do vs protoss because of cannons or cannon + 1gate.
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On April 27 2011 06:11 SupremeMe wrote:
Won't 2 gateway pressure vs zerg be unstoppable if the zerg expands?
Not really. 2 gates are easy to scout due to no wall off, and Zerg can go mass ling/queen to stop it with two hatcheries of larvae.
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I don't understand the "early aggression is bad" mentality a lot of people and Blizzard seem to have.
-Gateway build time + Zealot build time increased in the beta (and changed a lot since).
-Bunker build time increased, salvage nerfed
-Spore crawler burrow time decreased
-Warp Gate time increased, pylon field reduced
And a lot of comments seem to be about how amazing these things are. "Yay, Zerg doesn't have to worry about Bunker rushes as much," or, "Awesome, now it's easier to defend against K4G." Not that I don't think these changes are bad, but people act as if these things were impossible to defend. Korean 4-gate was never a problem and was honestly pretty easy to scout+defend against. Same with bunker rushes. You notice the games where they succeed more because the game is so short, but I feel like I see more games where early Banshee or Void Ray play doesn't win and only gets a small advantage, or all-ins are easily held off.
On the other side, there's a lot of defeatist attitudes with small balance changes. Spore crawler burrow time reduced to 6 seconds from 12 seconds does not completely eliminate early Banshee play (the build didn't hinge on those 6 seconds being your only timing to do damage). Salvage not being 100% return doesn't mean, "We're never going to see bunker rushes." The game isn't even a year old--builds are far from refined and we're bound to keep seeing new things.
A couple of my opinions:
- Does Fixed a bug where players were still able to stack flying units on top of each other. mean that flying units can't be stacked while stationary, or they can never be stacked at all? If it's the latter, that's going to be pretty upsetting for me, because it reduces a lot of the air micro. There are benefits and disadvantages to stacking your flying and magic boxing them. Trying to harass probes, avoid cannon range, and maneuver around an army without all of your units being spread over his (he has to move more to attack you)? Stack your mutas. Attacking Thors, your opponent has HTs or other splash damage? Magic box them. If everything is automatically magic boxed, air play will be boring.
-I don't understand the reasoning behind reducing pylon range; it seems like an arbitrary nerf. Korean 4-gate is not a problem, and pylons having range to warp onto the high ground of something is also not a problem.
-Archons being massive, YES. This along with the longer warp gate time motivates me to try to make late-game Colossus-less PvP builds. Granted my builds won't be high level, but I'm confident we're going to see more "fun" PvPs to watch.
-Still, PvP won't be void of early aggression. I'm really afraid of this build now. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=171264
Overall seems like a good patch.
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On April 27 2011 01:44 polysciguy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 01:24 Ribbon wrote:
Fun fact
Even against massive, Spore Crawlers have more DPS that Corruptors and over double the HP. Counting the 50 minerals for the drone, they cost the same amount of minerals/larva and 0 gas and 0 supply.
Obviously, they have a bit less range and a lot less mobility, but I'm *REALLY* interested in trying to fit spores into my army and getting fewer corrupters more hydra/infestors/roach/whatever.
Yeah yeah, Colos outrange, but you can pick them up and relocate. The big pain of the Deathball is that it can kill your army and walk into your main before you remax, so even slowing it down is interesting.
I definitely want to try it out. is that dps comparison including throwing corruption on a target?
Spore dps is 17.5, while corruptor dps is 10.5, so it's lower even with corruption.
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I'm protoss, and fine with all changes except the pylon power change one. Seriously, that needs to go. I'm hoping to do some defensive 3 (not warp) gate expands soon!
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I think what Blizzard is trying to say is "Everyone switch to zerg."
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Am I the only one who thinks that the Pylon Power Range is a bad thing? As Protoss it is going to make Forge fast expands a lot harder since you will need 2 pylons to bride the choke on maps like Tal Da-rim. Forge FE was just starting to be a valid strategy in leagues other than Masters and now it will be harder to do as you will need multiple pylons to bride the gaps.
Other than that Archons being Massive will help so much vs. terran.
Ghosts should cost more Gas, but not many Terrans use EMP effectively enough (as a Protoss I have no idea why as it immediately kills half of your armies health if they are in a tight ball, as all Protoss armies tend to be).
Infestors should have been Nerfed. Essentially a storm you cant run away from, so hard to deal with
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Will they ever fix the 3pylon / 2 bunker contains? or is that a perfectly fair and balanced thing to do?
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I'm pretty sure the Ghost buff is a DIRECT attempt to make infestor play more balanced. Infestors now have 90 life again, which is a 2 shot snipe, not to mention the deadlieness of a EMP.
While I'm on the note, every terran I encounter who has called the new fungal "imba" has also made zero attempt at a direct counter. Hell, carriers and motherships are imba if you don't counter them correctly. All I see all day long is MMM, tank marine, and the occasional hellion banshee. If anything, this speaks to the strength of terran hubris, who believe they should be able to roll the zerg on any build they chose, irrespective of what units he builds.
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The warpgate change is really interesting, although I'm surprised they didn't try a change in the cost instead. 50 minerals 50 gas has always seemed strangely inexpensive for such a powerful upgrade - so powerful in fact that it is essentially obligatory.
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On April 27 2011 06:17 Dist- wrote:
Will they ever fix the 3pylon / 2 bunker contains? or is that a perfectly fair and balanced thing to do?
Jesus, wow I can't believe there're still some ppl do 3 pylons and bunkers to contain, just lol.
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as much as i rage on terran for having 100% salvage, changing it to 75% isn't really going to change anything... oooo, they lose 25 minerals now, it's only going to make me not be able to BM them as hard when i lose to it because i'm greedy..
As for the pylon change, most of the Ps that i have talked to seem to think that it's to prevent warping DTs into a T's base as easily.
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EPT
