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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On April 27 2011 05:12 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 05:07 rbx270j wrote:On April 27 2011 05:06 Jayrod wrote:On April 27 2011 04:45 shockaslim wrote:On April 27 2011 04:28 Jayrod wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 27 2011 04:02 KimJongChill wrote:On April 27 2011 03:53 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 03:15 j3i wrote:
I was expecting a way for zerg to deal with forcefields, but I still like these changes. Maybe next time they'll make spine crawlers "massive." Burrow, ultras, air units, keeping sentry energy low through applying pressure, engaging in more open areas. There I gave you 5+ ways and I didnt even have to patch the game god i hate when people say ultras to deal with ff's, How are ultras not one of the many ways I listed to deal with forcefields? Or are you another one of those zergs that doesn't care about balance or appreciate the fact that without forcefields Protoss would never be able to compete. Pylon>Gateway>Cybernetics Core = Sentries(400/100) Spawning Pool>Lair>Infestation Pit>Hive>Ultralisk Cavern = Ultralisks (considerably more) You lose to the 1 sentry push much? Please don't ignore the multitude of ways in which a zerg has to deal with forcefields. I didn't even include sidestepping in my list... do you know how fucking powerful it is to win by simply avoiding direct battles with a player. It works in ZvP and ZvT. Source: personal experience Forcefields are not such a big problem late in the game - that's the point. This is wrong on so many levels. I can tell you as a protoss player unless ive made a switch to mass upgraded blink stalker in the late game I completely live and die by the forcefield no matter what the stage of the game is... Do zerg players really think this? Maybe thats why they are doing so poorly.
Zergs player think that because protoss don't remplace all their sentry if they lose them.
A late game protoss army often have less sentry than a early midgame one.
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On April 27 2011 05:25 SixPackAbs wrote:
Is this even live on the ptr server? was just playing, hit 100 gas and went to make a ghost, it was still 150.
Yes it is
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Salvage should be a function of .75*current bunker hp.
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On April 27 2011 05:26 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 05:12 Jayrod wrote:On April 27 2011 05:07 rbx270j wrote:On April 27 2011 05:06 Jayrod wrote:On April 27 2011 04:45 shockaslim wrote:On April 27 2011 04:28 Jayrod wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 27 2011 04:02 KimJongChill wrote:On April 27 2011 03:53 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 03:15 j3i wrote:
I was expecting a way for zerg to deal with forcefields, but I still like these changes. Maybe next time they'll make spine crawlers "massive." Burrow, ultras, air units, keeping sentry energy low through applying pressure, engaging in more open areas. There I gave you 5+ ways and I didnt even have to patch the game god i hate when people say ultras to deal with ff's, How are ultras not one of the many ways I listed to deal with forcefields? Or are you another one of those zergs that doesn't care about balance or appreciate the fact that without forcefields Protoss would never be able to compete. Pylon>Gateway>Cybernetics Core = Sentries(400/100) Spawning Pool>Lair>Infestation Pit>Hive>Ultralisk Cavern = Ultralisks (considerably more) You lose to the 1 sentry push much? Please don't ignore the multitude of ways in which a zerg has to deal with forcefields. I didn't even include sidestepping in my list... do you know how fucking powerful it is to win by simply avoiding direct battles with a player. It works in ZvP and ZvT. Source: personal experience Forcefields are not such a big problem late in the game - that's the point. This is wrong on so many levels. I can tell you as a protoss player unless ive made a switch to mass upgraded blink stalker in the late game I completely live and die by the forcefield no matter what the stage of the game is... Do zerg players really think this? Maybe thats why they are doing so poorly. Zergs player think that because protoss don't remplace all their sentry if they lose them. A late game protoss army often have less sentry than a early midgame one.
Sentries cost a TON of gas, which eats pretty heavily into Colo/HT/Tech.
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The only glaring offense seems to be the stacking. I don't see the issue, and it's kind of important for Muta harass.
Maybe Ghosts too, 150/150 seemed more appropriate.
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On April 27 2011 05:28 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 05:26 Noocta wrote:On April 27 2011 05:12 Jayrod wrote:On April 27 2011 05:07 rbx270j wrote:On April 27 2011 05:06 Jayrod wrote:On April 27 2011 04:45 shockaslim wrote:On April 27 2011 04:28 Jayrod wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 27 2011 04:02 KimJongChill wrote:On April 27 2011 03:53 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 03:15 j3i wrote:
I was expecting a way for zerg to deal with forcefields, but I still like these changes. Maybe next time they'll make spine crawlers "massive." Burrow, ultras, air units, keeping sentry energy low through applying pressure, engaging in more open areas. There I gave you 5+ ways and I didnt even have to patch the game god i hate when people say ultras to deal with ff's, How are ultras not one of the many ways I listed to deal with forcefields? Or are you another one of those zergs that doesn't care about balance or appreciate the fact that without forcefields Protoss would never be able to compete. Pylon>Gateway>Cybernetics Core = Sentries(400/100) Spawning Pool>Lair>Infestation Pit>Hive>Ultralisk Cavern = Ultralisks (considerably more) You lose to the 1 sentry push much? Please don't ignore the multitude of ways in which a zerg has to deal with forcefields. I didn't even include sidestepping in my list... do you know how fucking powerful it is to win by simply avoiding direct battles with a player. It works in ZvP and ZvT. Source: personal experience Forcefields are not such a big problem late in the game - that's the point. This is wrong on so many levels. I can tell you as a protoss player unless ive made a switch to mass upgraded blink stalker in the late game I completely live and die by the forcefield no matter what the stage of the game is... Do zerg players really think this? Maybe thats why they are doing so poorly. Zergs player think that because protoss don't remplace all their sentry if they lose them. A late game protoss army often have less sentry than a early midgame one. Sentries cost a TON of gas, which eats pretty heavily into Colo/HT/Tech.
A ton of gas EARLY ON that you have nothing to use on other than sentries/stalkers. The only way sentries are stopped is if they get killed in the early game somehow, but that's harder to do than it sounds.
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why has this thread been merged with the official 'have a moan about ultralisk thread' ?
personally i don't know why people insist on charging into a million tanks with their ultralisks. your idea in broodwar was to smash through your opponent with lings and ultras simultaneously... in SC2 people just make a round of 10 ultras and attack with no other units at all - that does indeed suck bigtime. it would be like a terran making 10 thors and a-moving them into a zerg 200/200 roach ball.
if you rush with lings and ultra simultaneously, the ultra will be healthy when it gets into melee range and that's where it becomes very hard to deal with... impossible to deal with if you didn't scout it early enough.
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Pretty happy about the ghost change. Will add some diversity to terran builds, especially midgame compositions IMO.
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On April 27 2011 04:54 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 04:28 Jayrod wrote:On April 27 2011 04:02 KimJongChill wrote:On April 27 2011 03:53 Jayrod wrote:On April 27 2011 03:15 j3i wrote:
I was expecting a way for zerg to deal with forcefields, but I still like these changes. Maybe next time they'll make spine crawlers "massive." Burrow, ultras, air units, keeping sentry energy low through applying pressure, engaging in more open areas. There I gave you 5+ ways and I didnt even have to patch the game god i hate when people say ultras to deal with ff's, How are ultras not one of the many ways I listed to deal with forcefields? Or are you another one of those zergs that doesn't care about balance or appreciate the fact that without forcefields Protoss would never be able to compete. I had the unfortunate incident of going Ultras yesterday by accident... They really are so bad as to be completely useless vs Protoss. The only unit they would theoretically be good against is the Stalker, and they'll still lose that fight... Ultras are BAAADDD...
what about forcefields and colossi?what else stops ling/bling?HT or Carriers with Colossi will never almost never happen unless the protoss is on 5 bases and if the protoss wont go robo you will also play very different but in fact 99 of 100 toss are going colossi
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On April 26 2011 11:20 Jimbo77 wrote:Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 180.
Sentry train time decreased from 42 to 37.
Stalker train time decreased from 42 to 37.
Zealot train time decreased from 38 to 33.
I'm just eyeballing the timings here, but I think these changes combined mean that the defender will have more units after the first warpin (since some units will have to rally in base)?
On April 26 2011 11:20 Jimbo77 wrote:Salvage resource return reduced from 100% to 75%.
So, salvaging is the same as cancelling? Boo. I sort of get the QQing about bunkers being free, but how about 90%? C'mon blizzard, let's make a deal here...
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Anyone know if Archon will be able to crush through FF's now like thors, ultras, and colossi do?
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On April 27 2011 05:12 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 05:07 rbx270j wrote:On April 27 2011 05:06 Jayrod wrote:On April 27 2011 04:45 shockaslim wrote:On April 27 2011 04:28 Jayrod wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 27 2011 04:02 KimJongChill wrote:On April 27 2011 03:53 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 03:15 j3i wrote:
I was expecting a way for zerg to deal with forcefields, but I still like these changes. Maybe next time they'll make spine crawlers "massive." Burrow, ultras, air units, keeping sentry energy low through applying pressure, engaging in more open areas. There I gave you 5+ ways and I didnt even have to patch the game god i hate when people say ultras to deal with ff's, How are ultras not one of the many ways I listed to deal with forcefields? Or are you another one of those zergs that doesn't care about balance or appreciate the fact that without forcefields Protoss would never be able to compete. Pylon>Gateway>Cybernetics Core = Sentries(400/100) Spawning Pool>Lair>Infestation Pit>Hive>Ultralisk Cavern = Ultralisks (considerably more) You lose to the 1 sentry push much? Please don't ignore the multitude of ways in which a zerg has to deal with forcefields. I didn't even include sidestepping in my list... do you know how fucking powerful it is to win by simply avoiding direct battles with a player. It works in ZvP and ZvT. Source: personal experience Forcefields are not such a big problem late in the game - that's the point. This is wrong on so many levels. I can tell you as a protoss player unless ive made a switch to mass upgraded blink stalker in the late game I completely live and die by the forcefield no matter what the stage of the game is... Do zerg players really think this? Maybe thats why they are doing so poorly.
If you really think a Zerg defending a 5-6 gate sentry-heavy timing has the same or less difficulty as a late-game sentry-heavy timing, I will do what I can to explain my point. A Zerg with few to no infestors, few to no mutas, no ultras and 2 mining bases has way more trouble with forcefields than a Zerg who has those options available. This is hugely compounded by the fact that a proxy pylon allows the Protoss to have near-instant access to all reenforcements and can cut Zerg reenforcements in half by force-fielding the ramp.
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On April 27 2011 05:37 ZeroTalent wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 11:20 Jimbo77 wrote:Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 180.
Sentry train time decreased from 42 to 37.
Stalker train time decreased from 42 to 37.
Zealot train time decreased from 38 to 33.
I'm just eyeballing the timings here, but I think these changes combined mean that the defender will have more units after the first warpin (since some units will have to rally in base)? Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 11:20 Jimbo77 wrote:Salvage resource return reduced from 100% to 75%. So, salvaging is the same as cancelling? Boo. I sort of get the QQing about bunkers being free, but how about 90%? C'mon blizzard, let's make a deal here...
You realize that salvaging happens when the structure has been completely built, right?
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On April 27 2011 05:24 tuestresfat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 05:21 willyallthewei wrote:
This hasn't been mentioned much in this thread, but I think this could end up being a pretty big buff patch for protoss' ability to expand in PVT early game.
By cutting down gateway build times, it may allow toss players to 3-gate expand with fast hallu and delay warpgates and robo for an early second nexus.
Buffed gateways >> can afford to delay warpgates even longer >> hallucination extra early >> earlier scout >> earlier expand/tech decision Well blizzard never said their goal in this patch was to buff or nerf protoss, they just stated they want to fix pvp. Not directed towards you or anyone in specific: FUCK YEA ARCHONS MASSIVE, WHAT WHAT COCUSSIVE SHELLS WHAT? Though making archons massive will make that late late game void ray tech switch that much more powerful.
hallu is 1337 vs banshee. 
i love the gateway change... i always thought it was stupid for the gateway to make like 1 unit before being upgraded to warpgate.
with the change it looks like gateways are now perfectly viable until the toss wants to pressure.
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Question for protoss players excited for two gate,
What map (beside Xel) do you plan to two gate on?
Tal'Darim altar?
Shattered Temple?
Or Backwater Gulch?
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On April 27 2011 05:18 j3i wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 03:53 Jayrod wrote:On April 27 2011 03:15 j3i wrote:
I was expecting a way for zerg to deal with forcefields, but I still like these changes. Maybe next time they'll make spine crawlers "massive." Burrow, ultras, air units, keeping sentry energy low through applying pressure, engaging in more open areas. There I gave you 5+ ways and I didnt even have to patch the game Well, I was unclear. A sentry-heavy 4/5gate push is what I was referring to, but I suppose the "keeping sentry energy low through applying pressure" could work. I'm not sure about burrow.
Well regarding burrow take a look at the EG style (maybe root as well?) from MLG Dallas recently. They noticed a tendency that protoss' were being really greedy with their 5 gate pushes and foregoing the observer so they skipped roach speed in favor of burrow movement to shut down those types of attacks. A 5 gate timing attack doesn't actually work at the same timing if you get the observer and though you take some damage with burrow movement, maybe even lose some roaches, its the lesser of two evils.
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I like the patch notes overall.
But just out of curiosity can someone explain why so many protoss are liking the archon change in PvP. Its obvious to see why they would like it in tvp but in PvP? Out of all the pvp's I watch it starts with 4 gate and ends with collosus. Changing the archon to massive imo doesn't help with that the only units in the protoss arsenal that would be affected by that are the phoenix and the void ray. Phoenix because graviton beam won't work on the archon anymore and the void ray because now the void ray theoretically should get to do bonus damage to the archon.
The void ray damage vs the archon seems especially odd because the archon is supposed to be the only unit that is not affected by any type of bonus damage due to being psionic. But o well its the only MU that would affect would be PvP and of course IMO you can't have imbalance in a mirror MU.
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On April 27 2011 05:37 ZeroTalent wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 11:20 Jimbo77 wrote:Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 180.
Sentry train time decreased from 42 to 37.
Stalker train time decreased from 42 to 37.
Zealot train time decreased from 38 to 33.
I'm just eyeballing the timings here, but I think these changes combined mean that the defender will have more units after the first warpin (since some units will have to rally in base)? Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 11:20 Jimbo77 wrote:Salvage resource return reduced from 100% to 75%. So, salvaging is the same as cancelling? Boo. I sort of get the QQing about bunkers being free, but how about 90%? C'mon blizzard, let's make a deal here...
you can't 'cancel' a fully erected bunker.
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Ghost change is really odd... TvP always had the issue of floating gas, and this won't help that... however it may open to the door to nukes and/or earlier cloak tech. Makes me feel less inclined to snag a mighty quick 3rd base though.
OR MAYBE ITS A SECRET PLOT TO GET US TERRANS TO BUILD RAVENS??!! :O
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[B]On April 27 2011 05:37 ZeroTalent wrote:[ Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 11:20 Jimbo77 wrote:Salvage resource return reduced from 100% to 75%. So, salvaging is the same as cancelling? Boo. I sort of get the QQing about bunkers being free, but how about 90%? C'mon blizzard, let's make a deal here...
the deal is that u can actually use the bunker and gettin ressources back when u dont want it anymore
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EPT
