|
On April 06 2011 10:17 catamorphist wrote:
Don't make rules you can't or won't enforce. I think that mandatory drug testing would not be worth the modicum of fairness it would provide -- it's a pain in the ass, costs money, and risks drama -- and without that, it's unenforceable.
Also, it's not true that it's "undoubtedly" giving anyone an unfair advantage. Needless to say, nobody has publicly tested or measured anyone's video gaming performance under Adderall or any other nootropics in a controlled environment, and nobody understands the mechanism and effects of these sorts of drugs well enough to say exactly what they are and are not going to help you with.
This is exactly right. I'm relieved to see that someone already said it more succinctly than I would have!
|
Problem is that this is banned in many countries, for example sweden.
There is no way of legally get your hands on Adderall here, thus making a pretty unfair advantage for the ones who actually can?
As long as its not available to all players, it should not be allowed.
|
This thread is giving me deja vu.
I don't know why.
One point I would like to hit on before I go to bed is I find it to be bullshit that people keep bashing TT1 over and over again.
The guy making his first post, Acaraliel or whatever his name is, hit a few points I agree with and I will reiterate the gist of what he said. Speed probably won't make you play better, in fact I would assume it would impair your overall cost efficiency and cognitive abilities, but it most certainly would allow you the energy to get more games in.
|
I don't know how I should react to this... I think a better poll would have been:
Should psychostimulant medication (like Adderall) be disallowed?
I mean should we search for this product in players? Should we ban/punish players for using it? Because in my eyes we can only do two things:
1) Not search for the product.
2) Very, very actively search for the product and punish players who take it severely.
There is no road between that. I think it is better to simply allow this product. Otherwise we will get a mess.
|
Some observations:
Professional sports ban some drugs regardless of prescription status. Prescription or not, if you use them, you can't play. Other drugs are forbidden without a prescription but permitted with them -- the deciding factor is usually whether they're believed or known to enhance performance (such as injected anabolic steroids) or simply render a drug test positive without enhancing performance (such as inhaled corticosteroids for asthma.)
To those who say a prescription means using a drug is OK in a competitive context: abuse of prescription drugs is widespread, and often involves getting a prescription under false pretenses. Of course, prescription drugs that are susceptible to abuse are often diverted or illegally purchased, also.
To those who say "caffeine is widely available, and it's not banned!": That's true, caffeine is perfectly legal and widely available. It also has virtually no severe adverse side effects and an LD50 that is so high that it's nearly impossible to take in that much in any commonly available form. Also, it's not necessary to skirt the law or behave deceptively to use caffeine, so each person is freely able to decide whether and how much to take in.
Prescription drugs like Adderall are significantly more hazardous under conditions of misuse, are much less well-understood, and may or may not enhance performance in such a way as to affect game results. Furthermore, it really doesn't matter whether they actually enhance performance, if players feel the need to abuse such drugs illegally (either by obtaining a prescription under false pretenses, or by acquiring it without a prescription) because they believe they need to do so to keep up.
All that said, from what has happened in professional sports, history suggests that tournament organizers have a motivation to turn a blind eye to abuse of these drugs until and unless outside pressure forces them to address the problem. For example, baseball didn't address the issue until the authorities took an interest. Testing is costly and complicates the relationship with players.
My personal view is that regardless of actual effectiveness at enhancing performance, and regardless of the feasibility of establishing widespread testing, tournaments should probably state that the use of any controlled substances, with the intent to enhance performance, outside the parameters of a valid prescription obtained in good faith, is forbidden. The reason is that doing so establishes a standard for behavior among competitors that makes clear that doing so will not be accepted within the community.
The truth is that establishing such a norm has value in itself, whether it's systematically enforceable or not. It would give people who are on the fence about doing so another reason to decide not to. Even without testing, it may deter someone who's concerned about being turned in by another participant who's aware of what they're doing. And, it takes a stand against players self-medicating without a doctor's involvement.
As for the question of people being too readily diagnosed with ADD by their doctors, that's kind of a bigger problem in the medical community and beyond what a tournament organizer can really be expected to take on.
|
i skipped a few pages but as someone who has taken adderol a couple times, and in high school/college i knew atleast 5 people with prescriptions and 5 more without that took it regularily without a prescription and it definately gives you incredible concentration advantage even if you have a prescription.
some people may think concentration drugs make someone with a prescription (lets say better concentration better than 25% of people) into a 'normal' person (better concentration than 50% of people) but its more like someone with 25% turns into someone with 90% concentration.
like 6 years ago when i was playing war3, i had a rl friend who was like top 2000 solo who didint own a computer and only played war3 at my house sometimes, i was a top 300 solo player on the same server. on adderol he could actually play better than me if i coached him on what to do (obviously adderol wont teach him which strats to do when he doesnt play that much). he would easily make 30% less bad decisions and increases his apm from like 50 to 100.
i realise this sounds insane to anyone who hasent taken adderol before but i highly suggest you try it if you think im bullshitting, i only took adderol twice in my life, to take tests, and i can tell you as a normal person on adderol, 2 6 hour tests felt like a breeze.
to be perfectly honest im fine with people playing on adderol. id rather see the best play and i dont think adderol is particularily harmful and people would play better games if they were on it. but if theres something stronger i dont know about (besides meth obviously) people probably shouldent be allowed to play on that. and dont underestimate this type of drug if youve never tried it.
|
On April 06 2011 19:43 MaxPro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 13:47 Atrophy wrote:On April 06 2011 10:40 MaxPro wrote:
big misconception that adderall makes you better. Only thing it would do is help people concentrate the entire game without their mind slipping off the game and think about the crowd etc..
being a former halo pro i know that 85% of the pros take adderall consistently at tourneys and the owners know it. which is why tests will not be enforced at mlg. remember adderall does not make you a better player. if it provides more exciting matches i dont see what the problem is. Amphetamine-based medications are banned in South Korea. They cannot be obtained at a South Korean pharmacy and are illegal to import. if you think you cannot beat someone because they are on adderall. take it yourself or get pwnd bro ...You were a halo pro? I don't believe you. What was your tag. And I thought gamers taking adderall to enhance their performance was common knowledge. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/learn-about-the-old-spice-rising-star-nominees
So what you are saying is that having better concentration doesn't make you better it just makes you better? I'm quite sure that if all football players took drugs 24/7 they would also give more exciting games since they will be able to endure a whole match better and not get as worn down.
Silly argument.
|
I'm not a medical expert or a pharmacist, but I believe psychoactive drugs are relatively harmless when compared to physiological centered once. My point is: drugs to help concentration are very very common (Ritalin). If the argument that these will cause health problems arises, then I challenge you to figure out why Ritalin and other A.D.D. medication is so widely used to correct concentration disorders.
Most of all, this is a game based around having fun. Which really is the reason that brings me to say No on this topic, shit shouldn't be allowed in competition.
But I wouldn't bother spending money to enforce this. Drug law enforcement: This old pony, I don't know how many times I have been told that enforcing constraints on people will only tempt them to jump that velvet rope to the forbidden fruit. People will just not want to do it if nobody cares right?...
How do you get a troll to stop trolling?.... stop caring and stop posting.(not saying this thread is a troll)
How do you get a drug abuser to stop abusing?.... stop caring and stop talking about it. He will figure it out soon enough.
In conclusion, I believe that If a player thinks he does not have the capacity to block out his surroundings and concentrate he should have just as much right to as a school child who makes paper airplanes during a test.
/I hope it makes sense.
|
considering how easy it is to get a rx for this stuff, i don't see how you can enforce it while not hurting those who "legitimately" need it. compare to banned steroids, which you can't just get.
in the US there are lots of shitbag doctors that just hand this stuff out like candy, because they know word will go around and they will get more business if they are known for easily prescribing it.
|
I disagree there shouldn't be a rule in place just because you can't enforce it. Drug testing costs money, lots of it, and esports is very new as it. In some theoretical world where PEDs actually become a problem testing for them is very much in the distant future when esports has much more money in it. However, the point and logic of banning PEDs is to protect the players -- the idea being, if they are legal, and they provide an advantage, it will be impossible to compete at a top level without taking them yourself and everyone will be forced into it.
Adderall is not the only potential drug. Adderall (or similar) would be useful for practice, or perhaps confidence, or to deal with the exhaustion of playing a long day and/or playing on the road where you're not sleeping well. The idea that it's applications to Starcraft are similar to applications for studying are not accurate. ADD "sufferers" do not have a "lack" of concentration -- it's better to explain they can't control their concentration well and get bored easily. Environments that increase the intensity or stress level tend to also hold the person with ADD's attention. Starcraft is obviously one of those things. Michael Phelps is a pretty famous example of someone with ADD (drug free, swimming got his focus and helped his symptoms).
Anxiety meds or beta blockers can also help people deal with nervousness and anxiety associated with competing.
I think a gentleman's rule is appropriate and will be sufficient for SC. Starcraft has always been the neglected esport. Videogames don't attract the most civilized crowd but SC is as much of an exception as there is. In every LAN/tournament I've been to (long ago), you could ALWAYS spot the Starcraft players. They were in the back, joking, getting along, being good sports, sharing the 4 computers they were allotted vs. the dozens for FPS, while FPS players (not all of them) yelled, swore, talked trash, threatened each other, etc. Simply making the statement that medicating yourself solely to improve your Starcraft skill is not kosher is good enough. Some people will have RL needs and be medicated. That's OK. Some people will ignore that rule and take whatever to make themselves better. That's OK too. What's not cool is a community which is dominated by junkies who cavalierly boast that drugs are required to play at the top level.
For esports or at least Starcraft to get respected by the mainstream, it (among many other things) should represent & agree with ideas like fairness and anti-doping. However, much more importantly, for starcraft to be healthy recreation & have a good effect on it's community rather than negative, it should vocally support good practices and not unethical/dangerous behavior.
|
I rarely post on here, but this topic something i want to give some input 
I've tryed playing SC2 on a number of different drugs (none of which were legal for ME personally to use), and i gotta say the Aderrall is NOT one of the ones which helps me play. If a person actually has ADHD or ADD then aderrall is essential for them to play at the same level as another individual who doesn't have the mental abnormality. Taking Aderral when not being DIAGNOSED with ADHD or ADD can have several different affects.
The reason i feel Aderral (and only this stimulant in particular) is not that beneficial to peoples performance in SC2 is that all it does is make you capable of doing things faster (at least that's what you think when your playing, due to processing things faster). However i feel decision making on this drug (when not prescribed it) does suffer unless taken it regularly. The reason for this is that aderral is meant to help people focus on specific tasks. SC2 is NOT ONE SPECIFIC task. you are constantly thinking about several different things and with certain stimulants it will impair u from actually processing all the thoughts/decisions that rush through ur brain.
the cherry on this is that If a person takes Aderrall regularly whether it be through legal or illegal means, it probably means that the individual needs it to function normally in society.
A more interesting question to ask would be whether it should be illegal to be BAKED out of ur skull when u play sc2. cause i can say with "high" certainty that stoner's' will probably play better when baked (due to them being used to it while playing video games) whereas people who don't smoke regularly would suffer dramatically from just a couple hits from a joint.
I think Americans probabaly have a very different view on this then rest of the world as getting "legal" drugs such as Zanex, Ade, concerta are a complete joke to get a hold of it you live in the states.
Fact is a conversation about drug use in SC2 will be completely arbitrary until it is seen as a universal sport.
|
Hey if those players need it then they are fooling themselves thinking they are that good. When they get beat whilst on it then they know they need to sort their sh*t out
|
On April 06 2011 20:24 VoidEU wrote:
Problem is that this is banned in many countries, for example sweden.
There is no way of legally get your hands on Adderall here, thus making a pretty unfair advantage for the ones who actually can?
As long as its not available to all players, it should not be allowed.
Well, I'm actually a doctor (technically still a medical student) here in Sweden and I can tell you that amphetamine based ADHD medication is not banned or illegal. The most perscribed types are Ritalin and Concerta, and they are perscribed relatively generously, as they are in the rest of the western world.
As a medical professional, I can almost guarantee that many SC2 players (and commentators) are taking amphetamine since I recognize the effects of the medication in their behaviour. The most blatant example is H to the Usky Husky. The speed and manner in which he speaks is typical for a medicated ADHD patient.
Now I would also like to add, that ADHD is somewhat of a bogus diagnosis - similar to Aspberger's. I could never say this in my professional life, of course, but there you have it. Many medical professionals do not believe that ADHD exists. Basically it's a symptom describing diagnosis that could, more or less, be applied to anyone with attention issues. And we all have attention issues to some degree. As such, small doses amphetamine would be helpful for anyone to focus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention_deficit_hyperactivity_disorder#Controversies
In this way, the diagnosis Aspberger's is applied to people with severe social issues, but issues that we all have in some shape or form.
If you look at the tests for made-up disorders like this you will see that it's basically impossible not to score on them.
These are some ADHD test questions.
+ Show Spoiler +1. Do you have a sense of underachievement, of not meeting your goals, regardless of how much you have actually accomplished?
2. I find it difficult to read written material unless it is very interesting or very easy.
3. Especially in groups, I find it hard to stay focused on what is being said in conversations.
4. I have a quick temper...a short fuse.
5. I am irritable, and get upset by minor annoyances.
6. I say things without thinking, and later regret having said them.
7. I make quick decisions without thinking enough about their possible bad results.
8. My relationships with people are made difficult by my tendency to talk first and think later.
9. My moods have highs and lows.
10. I have trouble planning in what order to do a series of tasks or activities.
11. I easily become upset.
12. I seem to be thin skinned and many things upset me.
13. I almost always am on the go.
14. I am more comfortable when moving than when sitting still.
15. In conversations, I start to answer questions before the questions have been fully asked.
16. I usually work on more than one project at a time, and fail to finish many of them.
17. There is a lot of "static" or "chatter" in my head.
18. Even when sitting quietly, I am usually moving my hands or feet.
19. In group activities it is hard for me to wait my turn.
20. My mind gets so cluttered that it is hard for it to function.
21. My thoughts bounce around as if my mind is a pinball machine.
22. My brain feels as if it is a television set with all the channels going at once.
23. I am unable to stop daydreaming.
24. I am distressed by the disorganized way my brain works.
Of course, many of these questions or statements are very generic. Everybody has moodswings. Everybody had trouble concentrating. Everyone gets irritated and upset.
Now don't get me wrong. I am not saying that people should not get amphetamine perscribed. Actuallly, I would be happy to see more people get amphetamine perscribed since it is a very effective stimulant that can improve your life in many, many ways (in low doses). What I'm saying is that disorders like ADHD work as an excuse to perscribe these kinds of medications. People have a very hard time giving drugs to their kids, but if they have a medical "label" to lean on, it suddenly feels OK.
So how can I say ADHD is a not a proper disease? Well, compare it to a brain tumor. You recongnize symptoms, you test to confirm. You can clearly and tangibly see the reason for the symptoms, and treat accordingly.
ADHD doesn't work like that. There is no clear cause. If you score high enough on the test, you suddendly have it.
So what I'm saying is not that ADHD doesn't exist. I'm saying it's not really a disease, it's more of a way of describing a type of personality. ADHD is a way to be. And doctors found in the 70s that people with this kind of personality, could benefit from amphetamine. And so, ADHD was "invented" as an "excuse" or a reason to perscribe amphetamine to people with attention disorders.
|
It should be forbidden for those who doesn't have to actually take them.
You should turn in some medical paper as proof to show that you aren't just using them for the advantage.
|
well i am more a i don't mind person, if they have to do this to be on the top, then i rather pity them for being as bad as me. (totally freaked out when i think my opponent is better then me) Though i understand that some get distracted more easily then others. (genes can be so annoying)
Anyway easiest way to deal with it (i don't know the duration how long it stays in your body testable x3, if its short well ... ble) test yourself and proof it and be an honored pro gamer, or always have the thought in the back of your mind that people think you are on drugs to play better ... tehehe ...
But i guess doing it this way would hurt the tournament that would be doing it alot in terms of people disliking this move. (well people dislike anything that some institution does, so better don't make needless steps hehe). Also the entertainment would go a bit down as well.
So for the sake of viewer numbers you will probably not see something be done against this. Unless people get fed up with it so much that viewer numbers are dropping.
So a better poll would be, would you still watch tournaments if you knew everyone would be on enhancing drugs. (high percentage would probably not be honest on this poll hehe.)
|
o.O I have no comment either way on the original topic, but I can't believe there are people in here genuinely insinuating that HuK was on something because of the way he was acting in an interview. He's always been that way... Its like people saying Liquid`Tyler is always high because he's so chill or saying Day[9] is drunk during his show because he's so over excited and out of control.
|
On April 06 2011 21:15 PraetorianX wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 20:24 VoidEU wrote:
Problem is that this is banned in many countries, for example sweden.
There is no way of legally get your hands on Adderall here, thus making a pretty unfair advantage for the ones who actually can?
As long as its not available to all players, it should not be allowed. Well, I'm actually a doctor (technically still a medical student) here in Sweden and I can tell you that amphetamine based ADHD medication is not banned or illegal. The most perscribed types are Ritalin and Concerta, and they are perscribed relatively generously, as they are in the rest of the western world. As a medical professional, I can almost guarantee that many SC2 players (and commentators) are taking amphetamine since I recognize the effects of the medication in their behaviour. The most blatant example is H to the Usky Husky. The speed and manner in which he speaks is typical for a medicated ADHD patient. Now I would also like to add, that ADHD is somewhat of a bogus diagnosis - similar to Aspberger's. I could never say this in my professional life, of course, but there you have it. Many medical professionals do not believe that ADHD exists. Basically it's a symptom describing diagnosis that could, more or less, be applied to anyone with attention issues. And we all have attention issues to some degree. As such, small doses amphetamine would be helpful for anyone to focus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention_deficit_hyperactivity_disorder#ControversiesIn this way, the diagnosis Aspberger's is applied to people with severe social issues, but issues that we all have in some shape or form. If you look at the tests for made-up disorders like this you will see that it's basically impossible not to score on them. These are some ADHD test questions. + Show Spoiler +1. Do you have a sense of underachievement, of not meeting your goals, regardless of how much you have actually accomplished?
2. I find it difficult to read written material unless it is very interesting or very easy.
3. Especially in groups, I find it hard to stay focused on what is being said in conversations.
4. I have a quick temper...a short fuse.
5. I am irritable, and get upset by minor annoyances.
6. I say things without thinking, and later regret having said them.
7. I make quick decisions without thinking enough about their possible bad results.
8. My relationships with people are made difficult by my tendency to talk first and think later.
9. My moods have highs and lows.
10. I have trouble planning in what order to do a series of tasks or activities.
11. I easily become upset.
12. I seem to be thin skinned and many things upset me.
13. I almost always am on the go.
14. I am more comfortable when moving than when sitting still.
15. In conversations, I start to answer questions before the questions have been fully asked.
16. I usually work on more than one project at a time, and fail to finish many of them.
17. There is a lot of "static" or "chatter" in my head.
18. Even when sitting quietly, I am usually moving my hands or feet.
19. In group activities it is hard for me to wait my turn.
20. My mind gets so cluttered that it is hard for it to function.
21. My thoughts bounce around as if my mind is a pinball machine.
22. My brain feels as if it is a television set with all the channels going at once.
23. I am unable to stop daydreaming.
24. I am distressed by the disorganized way my brain works. Of course, many of these questions or statements are very generic. Everybody has moodswings. Everybody had trouble concentrating. Everyone gets irritated and upset. Now don't get me wrong. I am not saying that people should not get amphetamine perscribed. Actuallly, I would be happy to see more people get amphetamine perscribed since it is a very effective stimulant that can improve your life in many, many ways (in low doses). What I'm saying is that disorders like ADHD work as an excuse to perscribe these kinds of medications. People have a very hard time giving drugs to their kids, but if they have a medical "label" to lean on, it suddenly feels OK. So how can I say ADHD is a not a proper disease? Well, compare it to a brain tumor. You recongnize symptoms, you test to confirm. You can clearly and tangibly see the reason for the symptoms, and treat accordingly. ADHD doesn't work like that. There is no clear cause. If you score high enough on the test, you suddendly have it. So what I'm saying is not that ADHD doesn't exist. I'm saying it's not really a disease, it's more of a way of describing a type of personality. ADHD is a way to be. And doctors found in the 70s that people with this kind of personality, could benefit from amphetamine. And so, ADHD was "invented" as an "excuse" or a reason to perscribe amphetamine to people with attention disorders.
I think psychological disorders & public understanding of them (of medicine in general) is a really big problem as you mentioned. I suspect that we look at a lot of modern dysfunctions and try to categorize them in a much older concept of medicine -- i.e., you catch/are born with some disease, and you take medicine for it. Many, many people do not understand that bacterial infections are not viral infections are not fungal infections, and similarly psychological and psycho-physical (like chronic fatigue or fibromyalgia) disorders and syndromes are being shoehorned into this idea that you are either "healthy" or have a "disease" when in reality it's a more complicated sliding scale with perhaps no concept of normal. I like how you describe that ADD is a type of personality -- people forget that while ADD may have been panned as difficult, there are many activities that are neutral or even beneficial for the symptom profile that matches ADD. For example, people with ADD tend to respond well to things which have a higher level adrenaline (e.g., playing paintball vs. sitting quietly reading) -- this might correlate to performing better in a tournament atmosphere vs. sitting at home grinding on the ladder. Of course, it also might correspond to having difficulty practicing methodically for said tournament.
|
Absolutely, ADD individuals should not be alienated from esports whatsoever. If you have a prescription, you should be allowed to take your medication.
|
The people postingin the topic sound like the people that are enforcing and supporting the "war on drugs", such a waste of time, money, and effort.
Yes this is the field I study and work in. Almost every person here has no idea wtf they are talking about, "tried" it a few times, or read some bogus MD websites on it.
The only reason anyone thinks they are better on this is because you hold benchmarks on irrelevant things like "APM"... Cool, so you're cracked out on adderol and Spam clicking faster... Doesn't mean you're better. You won a few more games on it? Cool, it's a streaky game which you probably would have won anyways...
There are things called dopamine. Serotonin, endorphines and epinephrine... Now what they do is Control your mood, perception, and well, everything.... They are the reason you think you are playing better. You're not. Amphetamines increase physical activity, and sadly, sc2 is not a physical activity, it's a mental one, with multiple dimensions and thought processes involved. No drug will make you better then you can naturally be because everyone has a skill ceiling, and it's not going to make you better then what you can be.
Stop being so conservative, don't speak out of emotion when you don't understand the real hard scientific facts. This thread is pointless, with irrational vs. Rational opinions, and will never be settled because of the way we are all raised and how it's beaten into the heads of society that drugs are bad, but also make you better? Like how cocaine is listed as a performance enhancing drug... Have you ever tried playing a sport on coke? Doesn't work out quite like you imagine.
|
Why are so many people saying that amphetamines don't make you play better? Have you guys never played after drinking 3-4 cups of coffee?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
