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On March 23 2011 04:20 Xeris wrote:
Avilo, I'm sorry my first pm came off as accusatory. I clarified my position. Again, we're not accusing you. I'm really sorry that you feel this way.
The way you just worded that apology, sorry that you feel this way is pretty much a slap in the face. It is basically like saying you're not actually sorry at all. Why not just come out with a straight up apology and end this all?
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Xeris just posted a public apology in page 8, clarifying the situation, his vote numbers no longer warrant being in the backup list, definitely not the top spot in it, and has thus been removed from contention.
Is there really anything else to say on this matter? Yes some wording could've been done better, but in the long run, it's been taken care of and in a semi-transparent manner.
Did anyone else think after avilo posted the full PM list that it didn't do any convincing to help him? Especially since the specific pm he started it with, is obviously cut off. Posting chunks of chunks doesn't prove anything, it's still taken out of context, if we have the full list of communication from beginning to end, maybe it'd be more possible to use as evidence, but just as avilo stated that Xeris didn't post "all of the convo" as part of his defense, posting part of the convo with just a bit more doesn't make your defense any better either avilo. Sorry man, I'm not a huge fan of you but I do think you were wrongly accused, they retracted, and now have made a public apology to you, there's really not much else to do except practice hard and qualify for next season. I think it'd be for the best if we just dropped this and moved on.
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On March 23 2011 04:27 CursedFeanor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 04:07 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Since there's no way to tell WHO actually did the votes, it's basically Avilo's word that he didn't versus uservoice's evidence that all his votes were rigged. I don't understand how anyone could think this is a good way to look at it at all. It's a fact that the votes were rigged. No one is disputing it. The number might be in dispute, but that's not important. It's not in dispute that at least about 18,000 votes were rigged. Is there any evidence that avilo is responsible for the rigged votes? Absolutely not. That's all you've got is motive. But then there are alternate explanations, like this whole "let's spell Athene on the front page" thing and haters of avilo who just want to screw with him by giving him fraudulent votes (he has gathered plenty of haters just because of his passionate posts on teamliquid.net). And you've got avilo saying he didn't do it. Now look up again at what I quoted at the start of this post. It doesn't make sense to say "it's avilo's word against uservoice's evidence that votes were rigged." That's all you can say is "We've determined that votes were rigged. We've got an accurate vote count now. We'll work from there. We were unable to obtain any leads or evidence that might point us toward the culprit so unfortunately we won't be pursuing it or taking any actions against anyone." In my opinion, Xeris/NASL should apologize to avilo and NASL absolutely should not penalize him in any way. Probably the most intelligent reply in this thread! I personally hope avilo qualifies in the open tournament so that some epic drama occurs in season 2...
Except Xeris apologized. avilo is still not being punished, because the standby list is based on popularity, and 43 votes does not a popular person get. And right now avilo is arguing that he's being punished by not being on the standby list.
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On March 23 2011 04:29 cha0 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 04:20 Xeris wrote:
Avilo, I'm sorry my first pm came off as accusatory. I clarified my position. Again, we're not accusing you. I'm really sorry that you feel this way.
The way you just worded that apology, sorry that you feel this way is pretty much a slap in the face. It is basically like saying you're not actually sorry at all. Why not just come out with a straight up apology and end this all?
Give up Xeris, even your apology is criticized. We will wait for the play by play by InControl on SOTG. Let Avilo be a guest so we can hear him whine in person.
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On March 23 2011 04:23 Charger wrote:
Unless I'm missing something, I don't think he is being 'punished' at all by anyone. All they did was throw out the fraudulent votes and then reevaluated Avilo from there. Obviously his huge number of votes on the site was a main reason he was still being considered so it makes sense that they are no longer considering him for a spot since the reevaluated Avilo with the correct number of votes doesn't come close enough to the requirements the NASL has set up.
Well I think you are missing something. The point is not that Avilo has been removed from the standby list - which is the right decision if it was fraudulent votes alone keeping him there. The point is that NASL's conduct towards Avilo has been totally unprofessional. As somebody who had scarcely heard of Avilo until now, this just reflects really poorly on the organization of NASL.
It seems a lot of people in this thread are happy to just brush aside the insulting comments in the PMs and emails in the context of 'this is the internet, deal with it'. Sorry, but that shit doesn't fly in the real world, and NASL is very much a real world enterprise with a lot of real world money behind.
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So im not an avilo fan or anything but the way he has been treated has gone out of control to just some random people throwing dirt on his name (which i believe is what this is all about)
So avilo shouldnt be in the top 50 probably not top 75 and he probably knows this himself
But the whole voting poll system should not have been made in the first place as there can be so so many things going wrong with it
Xeris/NASL cant just accuse avilo of cheating without any proof (and make no mistake thats what they did cant change that now)
Avilo has the right to defend himself and as long as its done privately between NASL or xeris its fine but taking this to TL and the public is another "mockery" as avilo calls it. As now theres a bunch of random people not involved in this in any way are just being rude without any reason at all which is just childlish.
To stop this please close / delete this thread and keep these things privatly as the reasonable people are just loosing respect to the organization of NASL
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Who even has time to do this? I mean 20k fraudelent votes by one user? that's a staggering number. I mean I went to the computer lab and voted for myself from every computer once a day for the online auditions for "I Love New York 2". And that left me about 1,500 votes.. and I considered that a huge investment of time.
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On March 23 2011 03:58 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 03:43 cangiz wrote:
Avilo, this toruney has to be elitist. Look at the prize pool... Stop making stupid arguments and just accept the fact that you had less than 50 votes.
You are a good player, but I dont feel you can compete in this tourney vs the koreans and the top NA/EU players. And players like incontrol can? :D I mean i'm sure he will get invited and every1 knows he has 0 achievements in sc2. Also 43 votes on avilo seems low to me, since i'm sure he already had more then that from people over at gr.org alone. Perhaps they should just do it fair all together, that basically means only invite Idra from NA and some of the top guys from EU and rest koreans. Then you have the real top 50.
Consistently placing top 16 MLG = top 50 North America. + He like invented standard pvz.
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Thanks Tyler  Xeris is one of the best organizers in the community, if not THE BEST... but definitely not a PR guy.
NASL needs to step it up with their PR big time, even though it's a good thing you guys "came clean" in posting this, you did it by first removing all of avilo's responses, which inherently puts doubt into the argument and statements you're making. When you come clean you have to include everything, like TSL did with the d/c issue, where they included the mistakes they made and pretty complete disclosure on the panel and parties involved.
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At this point any apology just doesn't come off as sincere. Honestly it's a lack of professionalism from both sides. I hope this isn't an indication of the type of drama NASL wants to highlight because I feel like there's already a feeling like this is going to be such an overhyped and underdelivered event.
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On March 23 2011 04:29 cha0 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 04:20 Xeris wrote:
Avilo, I'm sorry my first pm came off as accusatory. I clarified my position. Again, we're not accusing you. I'm really sorry that you feel this way.
The way you just worded that apology, sorry that you feel this way is pretty much a slap in the face. It is basically like saying you're not actually sorry at all. Why not just come out with a straight up apology and end this all?
No, don't put words into Xeris' mouth.
On March 23 2011 03:21 Xeris wrote:
To clarify. Avilo was on a standby list (not one of the 50 players), in case some people didn't get their deposits on time or dropped out for whatever reason. The entire reason for him being on that list was his position in the poll. Since all his votes were illegal, we removed him from our standby list. This has less to do with the fact that his votes were illegal than it does the fact that he only has a small number of legitimate votes, so the entire reason for him being on our standby list is now null and void.
If his votes are low, and the backup list are dependant on position, then his removal from that list is just. I don't see where Avilo is banned from the tournament, or how "cheating" is the reason for his removal on the list.
As long as the public stance by Xeris for the NASL backup list is that it is determined by votes, then he did the right thing here (ignoring the drama between Xeris and Avilo.)
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On March 23 2011 04:30 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 04:27 CursedFeanor wrote:On March 23 2011 04:07 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Since there's no way to tell WHO actually did the votes, it's basically Avilo's word that he didn't versus uservoice's evidence that all his votes were rigged. I don't understand how anyone could think this is a good way to look at it at all. It's a fact that the votes were rigged. No one is disputing it. The number might be in dispute, but that's not important. It's not in dispute that at least about 18,000 votes were rigged. Is there any evidence that avilo is responsible for the rigged votes? Absolutely not. That's all you've got is motive. But then there are alternate explanations, like this whole "let's spell Athene on the front page" thing and haters of avilo who just want to screw with him by giving him fraudulent votes (he has gathered plenty of haters just because of his passionate posts on teamliquid.net). And you've got avilo saying he didn't do it. Now look up again at what I quoted at the start of this post. It doesn't make sense to say "it's avilo's word against uservoice's evidence that votes were rigged." That's all you can say is "We've determined that votes were rigged. We've got an accurate vote count now. We'll work from there. We were unable to obtain any leads or evidence that might point us toward the culprit so unfortunately we won't be pursuing it or taking any actions against anyone." In my opinion, Xeris/NASL should apologize to avilo and NASL absolutely should not penalize him in any way. Probably the most intelligent reply in this thread! I personally hope avilo qualifies in the open tournament so that some epic drama occurs in season 2... Except Xeris apologized. avilo is still not being punished, because the standby list is based on popularity, and 43 votes does not a popular person get. And right now avilo is arguing that he's being punished by not being on the standby list.
It's amazing how many people are not seeing this very logic.
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On March 23 2011 04:25 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 04:23 Offhand wrote:On March 23 2011 04:19 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
It's ridiculous when they have no evidence at all. I don't know why this hasn't been mentioned yet, but the fraudulent votes all went through one account, the same one Avilo used to do his own voting. This doesn't automatically make him guilty but it does seem more like Avilo or someone close to him was responsible for the actual fraud votes. Where in the world did you get that information? That's not funny if you don't have any proof. Not funny at all!
Read Xeris' messages.
"What I said was that you used the same account for your votes, whether it was you specifically or someone doing it for you, I don't know, I guess there's really no way to tell if it was you or someone trolling you. Either way, almost all of the votes to your name weren't legitimate. "
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On March 23 2011 04:29 cha0 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 04:20 Xeris wrote:
Avilo, I'm sorry my first pm came off as accusatory. I clarified my position. Again, we're not accusing you. I'm really sorry that you feel this way.
The way you just worded that apology, sorry that you feel this way is pretty much a slap in the face. It is basically like saying you're not actually sorry at all. Why not just come out with a straight up apology and end this all?
Umm, maybe you didn't read the first "sorry". He first apologizes for being accusatory. Then he apologizes for something else, irreconcilable differences, which avilo illlustrated in his previous response.
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United Kingdom38205 Posts
On March 23 2011 04:24 SilverJohnny wrote:
Clealy this is all just a ploy from avilo to get more fans =p.
It's actually just a planned publicity stunt involving the NASL and Avilo to reignite some interest in their league prior to their player announcement (whenever it actually happens); once this thread has generated enough replies and stirred up interest in the issue (which is guaranteed with both parties "argueing" here) they will eventually resolve their issues in an amicable and public fashion and Avilo will be first on the list of back ups regardless.
>___>
<___<
conspiracy.
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On March 23 2011 04:30 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 04:27 CursedFeanor wrote:On March 23 2011 04:07 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Since there's no way to tell WHO actually did the votes, it's basically Avilo's word that he didn't versus uservoice's evidence that all his votes were rigged. I don't understand how anyone could think this is a good way to look at it at all. It's a fact that the votes were rigged. No one is disputing it. The number might be in dispute, but that's not important. It's not in dispute that at least about 18,000 votes were rigged. Is there any evidence that avilo is responsible for the rigged votes? Absolutely not. That's all you've got is motive. But then there are alternate explanations, like this whole "let's spell Athene on the front page" thing and haters of avilo who just want to screw with him by giving him fraudulent votes (he has gathered plenty of haters just because of his passionate posts on teamliquid.net). And you've got avilo saying he didn't do it. Now look up again at what I quoted at the start of this post. It doesn't make sense to say "it's avilo's word against uservoice's evidence that votes were rigged." That's all you can say is "We've determined that votes were rigged. We've got an accurate vote count now. We'll work from there. We were unable to obtain any leads or evidence that might point us toward the culprit so unfortunately we won't be pursuing it or taking any actions against anyone." In my opinion, Xeris/NASL should apologize to avilo and NASL absolutely should not penalize him in any way. Probably the most intelligent reply in this thread! I personally hope avilo qualifies in the open tournament so that some epic drama occurs in season 2... Except Xeris apologized. avilo is still not being punished, because the standby list is based on popularity, and 43 votes does not a popular person get. And right now avilo is arguing that he's being punished by not being on the standby list.
It's obvious I had more than 43 votes, but they can say I have however many fucking votes they want, do you realize that? On top of that, the votes do not even matter, so why they were being like this to me in the first place is beyond my comprehension.
I never have cheated or done anything bad in this community, the most i've done is been outspoken about stuff that people don't like talking about, and made posts here and there.
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On March 23 2011 04:28 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 04:25 avilo wrote:On March 23 2011 04:20 Xeris wrote:
Avilo, I'm sorry my first pm came off as accusatory. I clarified my position. Again, we're not accusing you. I'm really sorry that you feel this way.
You obviously did accuse me, and said that the owners decided to remove me from consideration of being in this tournament and/or the standby list. You told me this via email. And I continually have tried to contact you or the owners to tell you that I never have hacked or cheated these friggin polls, let alone done any of that in my past 10 years of gaming and so you guys started to just ignore me, and dust the issue under the rug. Thanks. Aww look, Xeris apologized and Avilo is still acting like a child. There's a shocker.
If you have read his post instead of insulting avilo any way you can since the start of this thread you would notice he hasnt accepted Xeris apology, I wouldnt either because he is not apologizing at all, he is just ''sorry'' that it sounded accusatory and ''sorry'' that he feels that way.
When you apologize you admit you were wrong, Xeris didnt. While his PMs certainly sound purposefuly insulting.
On March 23 2011 04:20 Xeris wrote:
Avilo, I'm sorry my first pm came off as accusatory. I clarified my position. Again, we're not accusing you. I'm really sorry that you feel this way.
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On March 23 2011 04:19 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 04:11 Jarmam wrote:On March 23 2011 04:07 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
In my opinion, Xeris/NASL should apologize to avilo and NASL absolutely should not penalize him in any way. Isnt that *exactly* what they're saying in this thread that they're NOT doing (penalizing him)? They can go ahead and apologize all they want - whether it's justified or not its still a good display of professionalism - but I do not get the penalized thing. At all. Nope check out these quotes from the OP: Show nested quote +This has less to do with the fact that his votes were illegal than it does the fact that he only has a small number of legitimate votes... So the fact that there were a lot of illegal votes may have played up to a 49.99% part of the decision. We don't know. We only know that it played a smaller part than the small number of legitimate votes. That's the careful wording that Xeris decided upon and that's what it means. If they want to be more specific about they made the decision, they would have been. Even if it's not close to 51/49, I was talking about absolutes. There should be 0 penalty. It would be easy enough for them to say "The only reason we were considering avilo for the standy list was because of his apparent popularity. He's not actually that popular so we took him off the list." But no, there's this extra component of him being associated against his will with fraudulent voting and now the NASL doesn't want to associate with him. Show nested quote +Since there's no way to tell WHO actually did the votes, it's basically Avilo's word that he didn't versus uservoice's evidence that all his votes were rigged. So, in good conscience it was the decision of the owners of the NASL that he can't be included in a standby list because it might jeapordize our integrity. The reason Avilo was first on our standby list was because of his perceived popularity. Obviously that has now been shown to be false, so we can no longer have him on that list. Again, the wording is purposely unclear. You can see some reasoning going on here, but you don't quite understand exactly why things were decided the way they are. Again it could have been a simple argument about how they were deceived by the fraudulent voting and now that they know the truth, he's not on the standby list anymore. But they didn't want to keep it simple like that. The word "integrity" has to pop up. It's ridiculous when they have no evidence at all.
Hohoho, I actually see your point on this one. I honestly think that the OP was just trying to be... fresh in his phrasing? by saying "less to do with x than it has to do with y", but I give you that the wording is too unclear too many times to be a decisive statement that they aren't holding it against him. Which of course is a clear mistake as they have admitted to having nothing to tie avilo to the fake voting.
Since there's no way to tell WHO actually did the votes, it's basically Avilo's word that he didn't versus uservoice's evidence that all his votes were rigged. So, in good conscience it was the decision of the owners of the NASL that he can't be included in a standby list because it might jeapordize our integrity.
conflicts with the very next sentence
The reason Avilo was first on our standby list was because of his perceived popularity. Obviously that has now been shown to be false, so we can no longer have him on that list.
There is no need to say anything about the votes if quote 2 is what matters. So:
Can we get a crystal clear statement on whether or not this false-voting business is affecting avilo's present and future in the NASL or not?
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On March 23 2011 04:19 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 04:11 Jarmam wrote:On March 23 2011 04:07 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
In my opinion, Xeris/NASL should apologize to avilo and NASL absolutely should not penalize him in any way. Isnt that *exactly* what they're saying in this thread that they're NOT doing (penalizing him)? They can go ahead and apologize all they want - whether it's justified or not its still a good display of professionalism - but I do not get the penalized thing. At all. Nope check out these quotes from the OP: Show nested quote +This has less to do with the fact that his votes were illegal than it does the fact that he only has a small number of legitimate votes... So the fact that there were a lot of illegal votes may have played up to a 49.99% part of the decision. We don't know. We only know that it played a smaller part than the small number of legitimate votes. That's the careful wording that Xeris decided upon and that's what it means. If they want to be more specific about they made the decision, they would have been. Even if it's not close to 51/49, I was talking about absolutes. There should be 0 penalty. It would be easy enough for them to say "The only reason we were considering avilo for the standy list was because of his apparent popularity. He's not actually that popular so we took him off the list." But no, there's this extra component of him being associated against his will with fraudulent voting and now the NASL doesn't want to associate with him. Show nested quote +Since there's no way to tell WHO actually did the votes, it's basically Avilo's word that he didn't versus uservoice's evidence that all his votes were rigged. So, in good conscience it was the decision of the owners of the NASL that he can't be included in a standby list because it might jeapordize our integrity. The reason Avilo was first on our standby list was because of his perceived popularity. Obviously that has now been shown to be false, so we can no longer have him on that list. Again, the wording is purposely unclear. You can see some reasoning going on here, but you don't quite understand exactly why things were decided the way they are. Again it could have been a simple argument about how they were deceived by the fraudulent voting and now that they know the truth, he's not on the standby list anymore. But they didn't want to keep it simple like that. The word "integrity" has to pop up. It's ridiculous when they have no evidence at all.
This post makes the most sense in this whole thread. And for the point that Tyler raises that avilo was taken off the standby list for partially a reason that is no fault of his own, and was called the source of that reason in a PM (though later retracted) -- Xeris should apologize for that misstep. Quite simple...
Ironically, the poll on page 8 shows that a vast majority of people don't care either way.
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8748 Posts
I think the matter is settled now. At least the two things I wanted to hear from Xeris, an apology and clarification that he's not being penalized in any way, have now happened.
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EPT
