On March 21 2011 21:16 Thorantham wrote: Interesting that Avilo was removed from the Voting site. Was there any info on what the league finally determined there and why they removed him?
yeah...i may be making a blog post about this later because it's pretty much garbage what they are doing. I'll just say here that as far as xeris has told me so far, they removed me from the voting site (and worse) because they somehow think I personally cheated the voting system.
So the word is so far, because of their own faulty system that anyone on the internet can troll, they are personally holding me responsible, saying I hacked/cheated for fraudulent votes on a site that I have no control over.
I'll probably make a post about it later on TL if they continue to refuse to clear it up with me. Pretty unprofessional on their part, and I sincerely hope they don't treat all potential players like this.
We asked uservoice to investigate fraudulent votes for everyone on the first page of the poll. All the fraudulent votes were removed by uservoice. Below is the official emails exchanged between us and uservoice (protecting the email addresses).
We've removed all the fraudulent votes for "avilo" which was pretty much all of them.
(NAME WITHHELD) CEO, UserVoice.com
On March 19, 2011 at 07:20AM NASL <-------> wrote: Yes please. And anyone else on the 1st page who Has the same issue
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From: Daniel <support@uservoice.com> Date: March 18, 2011 3:09:03 PM PDT
To: ------ Subject: Re: Poll being hacked
~~~ Reply above this line ~~~
Hi Russell,
You are right, we just check some more, and it looks like over 20k of the votes he got were from the same user agent. Unfortunately, he was smart about not using the same IP, so they slipped through our primary filters. Would you like to have us clear all the fraudulent votes?
Let us know if there is anything else we can help with.
Best,
Daniel
To clarify: We are not accusing Avilo of cheating. It could have been him rigging the votes on the poll, or it could have been someone else rigging the votes on the poll. Either way, all the fake votes were removed, and the remaining, legitimate votes are... 43. So, Avilo was not removed from the poll, but his fake votes were.
We cannot have someone high up on the poll who received most of them illegally, regardless of whether or not he knew it was happening. The poll obviously doesn't determine who is in the league, but it did factor into our decisions.
Next, because Avilo is insistent on claiming that we are accusing him of cheating, here are the emails I sent to him and the PM's I sent. Nowhere did I say that I accused him of cheating. In the FIRST PM I said "you", but I clarified it later.
PMs: "Ah, you were removed from the poll by uservoice. We investigated fraudulent voting and your votes were illegitimate. You used the same account but changed IP's every time, which was pretty funny. "
"Nobody has anything against you, none of us here have ever dealt with you or know you at all. The CEO of uservoice told me that almost all of your votes were fraudulent, and that they were also almost all made from one account. So, am I believing you or the CEO of uservoice? "
"I don't know who the CEO of uservoice is either, but we investigated fraudulent votes of every player in the first page of the poll, and almost all of yours were found to be fraudulent. Dunno what else to tell you. "
"What I said was that you used the same account for your votes, whether it was you specifically or someone doing it for you, I don't know, I guess there's really no way to tell if it was you or someone trolling you. Either way, almost all of the votes to your name weren't legitimate.
The polling doesn't matter, but someone trying to cheat the system does matter. Stealing a $1 candy bar doesn't make a huge difference, but if I actually did that it would make a difference because stealing is bad. So your analogy that even if you cheated it shouldn't matter because the poll doesn't matter is wrong.
So, whether it was you, or someone randomly deciding to rig the poll to give you 23,000 votes or however many you had -- we can't tell. All we know is that the votes you received were fraudulent. So we can't in good conscience keep you on a list to be considered knowing that you possibly rigged the voting; does that make sense?"
Emails: "Well,
uservoice investigated all of the people on the first page of the poll for fraudulent voting. There is an automatic filter that deletes votes with the same IP. There is a secondary layer that detects other fraud. Almost all of Avilo's votes were found to be fraudulent. It was the same account changing IP's and continuously voting for him. Did Avilo do it? I guess there's really no way to know for sure. It could have been someone else doing it for him (for some reason).
But the point is, almost the entirety of his votes were fraudulent. Uservoice is a pretty respected polling service that prides itself on its fraud detection. That's why we chose to use them, and why we paid for their service. I don't doubt that they're wrong. Since there's no way to tell WHO actually did the votes, it's basically Avilo's word that he didn't versus uservoice's evidence that all his votes were rigged. So, in good conscience it was the decision of the owners of the NASL that he can't be included in a standby list because it might jeapordize our integrity. The reason Avilo was first on our standby list was because of his perceived popularity. Obviously that has now been shown to be false, so we can no longer have him on that list. "
"I'm not trying to bar you from anything, all I have is the evidence presented. We might not even need a standby, so this entire discussion can be moot. Your votes were illegitimate. For whatever the reason, since there's no reason for us to determine it aside from you saying "I didn't cheat" ... we can't have you on that list. It was a call made by the owners, it has nothing to do with trying to bar you from the league. "
---
To clarify. Avilo was on a standby list (not one of the 50 players), in case some people didn't get their deposits on time or dropped out for whatever reason. The entire reason for him being on that list was his position in the poll. Since all his votes were illegal, we removed him from our standby list. This has less to do with the fact that his votes were illegal than it does the fact that he only has a small number of legitimate votes, so the entire reason for him being on our standby list is now null and void.
Once again: we are not accusing him of cheating. There is NO WAY for us to know exactly who gave him 23,000 votes, but they were fraudulent votes.
This is the last thing we will say on the matter, and we believe that our decision was fair and correct.
Does this even matter though? I was under the impression that the votes will be a very small part of the selection process. And by very small i mean 0. But yes, ezpz decision.
It's just fair that the cheat votes were taken out. It's not like they were specifically targeting that one person. It just happens someone had cheat voted on his poll. Justice served.
PMs: "Ah, you were removed from the poll by uservoice. We investigated fraudulent voting and your votes were illegitimate. You used the same account but changed IP's every time, which was pretty funny. "
glad to see a appropriate response from Xeris, totally lays out what happened and the result so that there is no possibility for there to even be accused of bias against avilo or whatever... thanks for the update xeris!
i can totally see how avilo felt that you accused him, the first message to him implies that. regardless, as long as ppl can just be upfront with each other and be clear its all good.
Thanks for the clarification. If you notice teamliquid and the starcraft community loves transparency which I know isn't always 100% possible but if you look at the TSL and Reddit Invitational all we require is some clarity as to why controversial decisions are made. I don't think anyone truly sees a large problem with the Boxer disconnect win because of the extremely fast and clear reasons and answers.
It's refreshing to see this level of transparency so early on in the NASL, it's a shame that fraudulent votes weren't caught initially in the voting or very early in the process to prevent this situation at all, but at least the fraud was successfully caught and dealt with.
On March 23 2011 03:28 Kennigit wrote: Does this even matter though? I was under the impression that the votes will be a very small part of the selection process. And by very small i mean 0. But yes, ezpz decision.
It doesn't really matter, but Avilo has been sending me emails and pm's constantly so I decided to just post everything here because we are incredibly busy here and don't have time to continue arguing with him. This is our final decision, everyone knows about it now, and that's that.
Everyone knew they weren't legit, and it's pretty easy to tell if they are from the same user based on how unique a browser can be (even with cleared cookies and a fresh IP). Arstechnica (IIRC) even did an article on identifying unique users based on their browser string.
I don't know if anyone thought Avilo necessarily rigged it, but most people had the idea from a very early stage that the votes for him were rigged. Unfortunate, maybe, but that's the way it goes. Possibly it should have been dealt with sooner, but there's little doubt that the company got it wrong since these things are easy to identify unless you put in a lot of effort.
I doubt anyone thought Avilo was just that popular, I don't get why you have to make a thread clearing this up when anyone with half a brain realizes the poll was messed with.
On March 23 2011 03:28 Kennigit wrote: Does this even matter though? I was under the impression that the votes will be a very small part of the selection process. And by very small i mean 0. But yes, ezpz decision.
Yeah, this is exactly what I was wondering. So why are we worried?
On March 23 2011 03:28 Kennigit wrote: Does this even matter though? I was under the impression that the votes will be a very small part of the selection process. And by very small i mean 0. But yes, ezpz decision.
Yeah, this is exactly what I was wondering. So why are we worried?
i think it was moreso to satiate avilo and prevent him from the constant PMs and emails that Xeris said they were recieving from him about his place in the voting system
On March 23 2011 03:28 Kennigit wrote: Does this even matter though? I was under the impression that the votes will be a very small part of the selection process. And by very small i mean 0. But yes, ezpz decision.
It doesn't really matter, but Avilo has been sending me emails and pm's constantly so I decided to just post everything here because we are incredibly busy here and don't have time to continue arguing with him. This is our final decision, everyone knows about it now, and that's that.
To be fair to Avilo, your wording is clearly accusatory in the PMs. You said You used the same account but changed IP's every time, which was pretty funny. Even in the email, you strongly insinuate that he is the culprit. I'm glad the illegitimate votes have been removed and that the matter is now clarified, but reading this, Avilo has a right to be upset.
I highly doubt I only had 43 votes, as I know easily i've had 500+ supporters from various advertising, email lists, and lots of other "getting myself out there."
It's obvious that the votes were trolled heavily, not "just" my listing on the site either, but other players as well.
I can post the other emails that you have sent to me as well, where you claim I hacked the system, cheated it, and other sorts of stupid non-sense where you mockingly make an analogy of stealing a 1 dollar candy bar and basically act like assholes.
Such as the first instance where it was obvious my listing had been trolled/hacked, and you guys removed my name from the site. I PM'd asking for reasoning expecting you guys to be up front and reasonable about it, that you would re-add me to the site and that the votes were possibly trolled.
Instead Xeris, you responded telling me you originally deleted my entry from NASL "on accident" because you happened to "misclick on my username with the 'delete button'" out of all of the usernames to "misclick" on.
I have no problem with not getting into your elitist NASL club because I don't know the right people and have no former BW grandiose background, even though I've shown more results in SC2 than some people have that probably did make it in. What I have a problem with is you guys accusing me of being a hacker/cheater, and being complete a-holes towards me multiple times, when all I wanted is to apply for NASL, possibly get in, and be involved in this.
I certainly had more votes than "43," but you guys are absolutely ridiculous in your lack of professionalism. Like I said, ideally I would have wanted to be in the first batch of 50 "ordained by the gods" progamers to get in the NASL, but I have no problem not being in it, but I do have a problem when you guys accuse me of hacking/cheating when I have no history of cheating anything in my past 10+ years of gaming.
Basically, you guys are being elitist as hell (obviously the entire thing is) but you didn't have to be a-holes on top of that.
If he only has 43 real votes, he only has 43 real votes. All this pointing fingers he said/she said doesn't really seem necessary. The simple fact of the matter is that the large majority of his votes were falsified and his legitimate votes weren't high enough to be on the standby list, which is simply a matter of fact, not something really up for debate.
The only thing I would say is that I'm curious as to why avilo is the center of investigations. I'm not saying that I suspect foulplay from any other contestants, but this is the internet, after all. Have you guys given equal investigation to anyone else? I doubt every single fraud vote was in avilos name.
Edit: I say this only having read the OP, not avilos side of the story etc etc. Obviously there is much more behind all this, so what I've just said is not necessarily true/etc.
On March 23 2011 03:28 Kennigit wrote: Does this even matter though? I was under the impression that the votes will be a very small part of the selection process. And by very small i mean 0. But yes, ezpz decision.
On March 23 2011 03:21 Xeris wrote: To clarify. Avilo was on a standby list (not one of the 50 players), in case some people didn't get their deposits on time or dropped out for whatever reason. The entire reason for him being on that list was his position in the poll. Since all his votes were illegal, we removed him from our standby list. This has less to do with the fact that his votes were illegal than it does the fact that he only has a small number of legitimate votes, so the entire reason for him being on our standby list is now null and void.
Well, this is good to know, I suppose. It is good to clarify this, and the transparency is nice too. And this:
To clarify. Avilo was on a standby list (not one of the 50 players), in case some people didn't get their deposits on time or dropped out for whatever reason.
makes it sound like the players have already been chosen.
On March 23 2011 03:35 whatthefat wrote: To be fair to Avilo, your wording is clearly accusatory in the PMs. You said You used the same account but changed IP's every time, which was pretty funny. Even in the email, you strongly insinuate that he is the culprit. I'm glad the illegitimate votes have been removed and that the matter is now clarified, but reading this, Avilo has a right to be upset.
Thank you for having common sense of why I am upset. These awesome NASL people, apparently from what Xeris has emailed me and told me, I have been deemed a hacker/cheater by the NASL and was completely removed from consideration due to fucking trolls on the internet that are out of my control.
And when I am PMing/Emailing with no responses, no contact with the owners, you can see why I have a right to get upset.
I think that the decision was fair and the method of finding these illegitimate votes was proper, but:
On March 23 2011 03:21 Xeris wrote: Next, because Avilo is insistent on claiming that we are accusing him of cheating, here are the emails I sent to him and the PM's I sent. Nowhere did I say that I accused him of cheating. In the FIRST PM I said "you", but I clarified it later.
PMs: "Ah, you were removed from the poll by uservoice. We investigated fraudulent voting and your votes were illegitimate. You used the same account but changed IP's every time, which was pretty funny. "
"What I said was that you used the same account for your votes, whether it was you specifically or someone doing it for you, I don't know, I guess there's really no way to tell if it was you or someone trolling you. Either way, almost all of the votes to your name weren't legitimate.
So, whether it was you, or someone randomly deciding to rig the poll to give you 23,000 votes or however many you had -- we can't tell. All we know is that the votes you received were fraudulent. So we can't in good conscience keep you on a list to be considered knowing that you possibly rigged the voting; does that make sense?"
I still think you should at least apologize to Avilo because you do accuse him of cheating in your very first PM, and even though you clarify your usage of 'you' later on you still said it was outright him at the start and theres no proof that it was him(probably wasn't even him doing the fake votes). Sounds like Avilo deserves and apology imo.
On March 23 2011 03:36 avilo wrote: I have no problem with not getting into your elitist NASL club because I don't know the right people and have no former BW grandiose background, even though I've shown more results in SC2 than some people have that probably did make it in.
The funny thing is, where would the votes come from if not from himself? Okey if he would be some crazy superstar of a player or some famous streamer but the guy has like 10 viewers on his crappy stream on a daily basis... so yeah the legit votes he have right now is probably from his family and friends. xD
Those PM's you sent Avilo really were straight up accusing him of submitting the fake votes. No amount of backtracking will get you out of that.
And as Kennigit pointed out, this whole voting system is a fraud anyway. So what difference does it really make? Even if he had 23,000 votes he would still only be on the standby list according to your reasoning....
On March 23 2011 03:36 Nokarot wrote: If he only has 43 real votes, he only has 43 real votes. All this pointing fingers he said/she said doesn't really seem necessary. The simple fact of the matter is that the large majority of his votes were falsified and his legitimate votes weren't high enough to be on the standby list, which is simply a matter of fact, not something really up for debate.
The only thing I would say is that I'm curious as to why avilo is the center of investigations. I'm not saying that I suspect foulplay from any other contestants, but this is the internet, after all. Have you guys given equal investigation to anyone else? I doubt every single fraud vote was in avilos name.
I clearly had more than 43 votes, obviously not 23,000 or whatever ridiculous number it was, but I am fairly sure I had around ~1500-2000. Not a lot, but yah, more than 43. I personally know 43 people that voted x3 for me....so yeah...that's a bit of bullshit on their part too to downplay this.
I have no fantasies of them inviting me in the first 50. I know none of them personally, and knew they would choose 50 based off of who they knew and who is on a "team" regardless. That part is fine, it's one of the most elitist things to get into the first 50, I did not expect to get in unless by miracle.
But come on? Way to kick a guy when he's down already? Accusing me of hacking your poll that doesn't matter and then telling me I have been removed of all consideration by the owners of NASL because the poll was hacked/trolled? What the fuck? Can anyone see something wrong with that?
On March 23 2011 03:36 avilo wrote: I highly doubt I only had 43 votes, as I know easily i've had 500+ supporters from various advertising, email lists, and lots of other "getting myself out there."
It's obvious that the votes were trolled heavily, not "just" my listing on the site either, but other players as well.
I can post the other emails that you have sent to me as well, where you claim I hacked the system, cheated it, and other sorts of stupid non-sense where you mockingly make an analogy of stealing a 1 dollar candy bar and basically act like assholes.
Such as the first instance where it was obvious my listing had been trolled/hacked, and you guys removed my name from the site. I PM'd asking for reasoning expecting you guys to be up front and reasonable about it, that you would re-add me to the site and that the votes were possibly trolled.
Instead Xeris, you responded telling me you originally deleted my entry from NASL "on accident" because you happened to "misclick on my username with the 'delete button'" out of all of the usernames to "misclick" on.
I have no problem with not getting into your elitist NASL club because I don't know the right people and have no former BW grandiose background, even though I've shown more results in SC2 than some people have that probably did make it in. What I have a problem with is you guys accusing me of being a hacker/cheater, and being complete a-holes towards me multiple times, when all I wanted is to apply for NASL, possibly get in, and be involved in this.
I certainly had more votes than "43," but you guys are absolutely ridiculous in your lack of professionalism. Like I said, ideally I would have wanted to be in the first batch of 50 "ordained by the gods" progamers to get in the NASL, but I have no problem not being in it, but I do have a problem when you guys accuse me of hacking/cheating when I have no history of cheating anything in my past 10+ years of gaming.
Basically, you guys are being elitist as hell (obviously the entire thing is) but you didn't have to be a-holes on top of that.
seriously did anyone really thought that votes on that list were all legit? I mean, I don't have anything against avilo but it's really hard to believe that he would get more votes than nada/july/artosis/boxer/etc So even if it was someone else trolling the system, that doesn't change the fact that avilo shouldn't be no.1 on standby list for competition, it would just mean that both nasl and avilo were trolled.
and tbh it's hard to feel sorry for guy who says:
On March 23 2011 03:41 avilo wrote:That part is fine, it's one of the most elitist things to get into the first 50, I did not expect to get in unless by miracle.
if by miracle you mean getting your game up and winning some stuff, getting your name out etc, then yea, you need miracle.
This is just ridiculous to make drama out of something like this when everyone knows that there's no way that some players from that list had so many legit votes. And whether NASL thinks that they did it by themselves or that's someone from outside - that should be dealt with from the inside.
On March 23 2011 03:36 avilo wrote: I highly doubt I only had 43 votes, as I know easily i've had 500+ supporters from various advertising, email lists, and lots of other "getting myself out there."
It's obvious that the votes were trolled heavily, not "just" my listing on the site either, but other players as well.
I can post the other emails that you have sent to me as well, where you claim I hacked the system, cheated it, and other sorts of stupid non-sense where you mockingly make an analogy of stealing a 1 dollar candy bar and basically act like assholes.
Such as the first instance where it was obvious my listing had been trolled/hacked, and you guys removed my name from the site. I PM'd asking for reasoning expecting you guys to be up front and reasonable about it, that you would re-add me to the site and that the votes were possibly trolled.
Instead Xeris, you responded telling me you originally deleted my entry from NASL "on accident" because you happened to "misclick on my username with the 'delete button'" out of all of the usernames to "misclick" on.
I have no problem with not getting into your elitist NASL club because I don't know the right people and have no former BW grandiose background, even though I've shown more results in SC2 than some people have that probably did make it in. What I have a problem with is you guys accusing me of being a hacker/cheater, and being complete a-holes towards me multiple times, when all I wanted is to apply for NASL, possibly get in, and be involved in this.
I certainly had more votes than "43," but you guys are absolutely ridiculous in your lack of professionalism. Like I said, ideally I would have wanted to be in the first batch of 50 "ordained by the gods" progamers to get in the NASL, but I have no problem not being in it, but I do have a problem when you guys accuse me of hacking/cheating when I have no history of cheating anything in my past 10+ years of gaming.
Basically, you guys are being elitist as hell (obviously the entire thing is) but you didn't have to be a-holes on top of that.
Avilo, because you have 500 supporters does not mean all 500 will vote for you, in fact even close to 10% or so rate (which 43 would be), is pretty good.
For example we have had over 250,000 viewers on iCCup TV since we started promoting our Facebook VERY heavily. We have 97 people that have "liked" the page currently. It's pretty standard, most people are lazy.
Cool for NASL to be nice and transparent on this !
On March 23 2011 03:40 Termit wrote: The funny thing is, where would the votes come from if not from himself? Okey if he would be some crazy superstar of a player or some famous streamer but the guy has like 10 viewers on his crappy stream on a daily basis... so yeah the legit votes he have right now is probably from his family and friends. xD
Am i missing something? Why are people being so disrespectful towards Avilo? I'm sure it was just a misunderstanding and everything, but even in this thread people are calling his stream crappy and laughing about how only 43 people actually voted for him.
The guy didnt do anything wrong as far as i understand? I am just a little confused.
I guess it's just people being idiots or whatever?
Avilo was well know for exploiting bugs in Red Alert 3, claiming that if EA hadn't fixed them then they were legit, even though EA was notoriously slow in fixing things.
So him doing something like this doesn't come as a surprise
On March 23 2011 03:36 avilo wrote: I highly doubt I only had 43 votes, as I know easily i've had 500+ supporters from various advertising, email lists, and lots of other "getting myself out there."
It's obvious that the votes were trolled heavily, not "just" my listing on the site either, but other players as well.
I can post the other emails that you have sent to me as well, where you claim I hacked the system, cheated it, and other sorts of stupid non-sense where you mockingly make an analogy of stealing a 1 dollar candy bar and basically act like assholes.
Such as the first instance where it was obvious my listing had been trolled/hacked, and you guys removed my name from the site. I PM'd asking for reasoning expecting you guys to be up front and reasonable about it, that you would re-add me to the site and that the votes were possibly trolled.
Instead Xeris, you responded telling me you originally deleted my entry from NASL "on accident" because you happened to "misclick on my username with the 'delete button'" out of all of the usernames to "misclick" on.
I have no problem with not getting into your elitist NASL club because I don't know the right people and have no former BW grandiose background, even though I've shown more results in SC2 than some people have that probably did make it in. What I have a problem with is you guys accusing me of being a hacker/cheater, and being complete a-holes towards me multiple times, when all I wanted is to apply for NASL, possibly get in, and be involved in this.
I certainly had more votes than "43," but you guys are absolutely ridiculous in your lack of professionalism. Like I said, ideally I would have wanted to be in the first batch of 50 "ordained by the gods" progamers to get in the NASL, but I have no problem not being in it, but I do have a problem when you guys accuse me of hacking/cheating when I have no history of cheating anything in my past 10+ years of gaming.
Basically, you guys are being elitist as hell (obviously the entire thing is) but you didn't have to be a-holes on top of that.
Avilo, this toruney has to be elitist. Look at the prize pool... Stop making stupid arguments and just accept the fact that you had less than 50 votes.
You are a good player, but I dont feel you can compete in this tourney vs the koreans and the top NA/EU players.
On March 23 2011 03:35 whatthefat wrote: To be fair to Avilo, your wording is clearly accusatory in the PMs. You said You used the same account but changed IP's every time, which was pretty funny. Even in the email, you strongly insinuate that he is the culprit. I'm glad the illegitimate votes have been removed and that the matter is now clarified, but reading this, Avilo has a right to be upset.
Thank you for having common sense of why I am upset. These awesome NASL people, apparently from what Xeris has emailed me and told me, I have been deemed a hacker/cheater by the NASL and was completely removed from consideration due to fucking trolls on the internet that are out of my control.
And when I am PMing/Emailing with no responses, no contact with the owners, you can see why I have a right to get upset.
Once again: we are not accusing him of cheating. There is NO WAY for us to know exactly who gave him 23,000 votes, but they were fraudulent votes.
This is the last thing we will say on the matter, and we believe that our decision was fair and correct.
On March 23 2011 03:40 antikk wrote: Those PM's you sent Avilo really were straight up accusing him of submitting the fake votes. No amount of backtracking will get you out of that.
And as Kennigit pointed out, this whole voting system is a fraud anyway. So what difference does it really make? Even if he had 23,000 votes he would still only be on the standby list according to your reasoning....
You should see the PM's from the first time around that they removed me from the polls. I expected a reasonable response, instead they tell me they "misclicked and deleted my entry."
As well as Xeris mocking me PM after asking why my entry had been removed, "no clue, nobody has touched that site in awhile, players already decided anyways, plus voting doesn't matter.
oh, it's a conspiracy though. "
So wait, voting doesn't matter, but they still are going to be complete assholes towards me, call me a hacker/cheater, and remove me from consideration from the NASL because their poll was ttrolled?
I highly doubt I only had 43 votes, as I know easily i've had 500+ supporters from various advertising, email lists, and lots of other "getting myself out there."
It's obvious that the votes were trolled heavily, not "just" my listing on the site either, but other players as well.
I can post the other emails that you have sent to me as well, where you claim I hacked the system, cheated it, and other sorts of stupid non-sense where you mockingly make an analogy of stealing a 1 dollar candy bar and basically act like assholes.
Such as the first instance where it was obvious my listing had been trolled/hacked, and you guys removed my name from the site. I PM'd asking for reasoning expecting you guys to be up front and reasonable about it, that you would re-add me to the site and that the votes were possibly trolled.
Instead Xeris, you responded telling me you originally deleted my entry from NASL "on accident" because you happened to "misclick on my username with the 'delete button'" out of all of the usernames to "misclick" on.
I have no problem with not getting into your elitist NASL club because I don't know the right people and have no former BW grandiose background, even though I've shown more results in SC2 than some people have that probably did make it in. What I have a problem with is you guys accusing me of being a hacker/cheater, and being complete a-holes towards me multiple times, when all I wanted is to apply for NASL, possibly get in, and be involved in this.
I certainly had more votes than "43," but you guys are absolutely ridiculous in your lack of professionalism. Like I said, ideally I would have wanted to be in the first batch of 50 "ordained by the gods" progamers to get in the NASL, but I have no problem not being in it, but I do have a problem when you guys accuse me of hacking/cheating when I have no history of cheating anything in my past 10+ years of gaming.
Basically, you guys are being elitist as hell (obviously the entire thing is) but you didn't have to be a-holes on top of that.
Sounds like you're barking up the wrong tree. Shouldn't you be discussing this with uservoice?
Not quite sure what happened here. But it doesn't sound like Avilo is trying to say he belongs in that top 50 or even as a backup. He's just upset that it sounds like he was cheating (which he may or may not have been doing). Innocent until proven guilty, give him a break.
To clarify. Avilo was on a standby list (not one of the 50 players), in case some people didn't get their deposits on time or dropped out for whatever reason.
makes it sound like the players have already been chosen.
They are sopposed to start showing the chosen players today.
On March 23 2011 03:40 antikk wrote: Those PM's you sent Avilo really were straight up accusing him of submitting the fake votes. No amount of backtracking will get you out of that.
And as Kennigit pointed out, this whole voting system is a fraud anyway. So what difference does it really make? Even if he had 23,000 votes he would still only be on the standby list according to your reasoning....
1) As I said, the first PM I realize I was a bit accusatory, which is why I clarified my stance in the remainder of the PM's / emails.
2) That's actually NOT what Kennigit said at all.
3) There is an open tournament, so if Avilo deserves to be in the league he can qualify that way.
4) Stay tuned to NASL.tv throughout the next 10 days as we announce our players!
It is very nice of Xeris for clarifying his side of the story. However, I can see why avilo feels betrayed especially with the way some of the emails had an accusatory tone to them. I'm not an avilo lover or hater but it would seem a good idea from avilo's point of view to act more professional on this matter as well (maybe help him get into future tournaments and showmatches and the like). I do not know everything that has happened, but from what I've read of avilo's writing he seems to be the one acting far less professional than Xeris and NASL.
Let me reiterate though that I do not have all the facts. Anywho... good luck and have batman to both sides...
Can you fill us in on what your achievements are that are better than the elitist BW background players compared to the other people who are probably being considered?
Maybe you have better achievements in SC2 then Nada? Idk. I actually have never seen you win a tournament, not that I have so I can't say much, but your argument lacks some stuff.
All I can say is that you NASL guys should have chosen your words more wisely when talking with avilo. The first few PMs does have an accusing tone and I can understand avilo being upset about being called a cheater/hacker.
On March 23 2011 03:35 whatthefat wrote: To be fair to Avilo, your wording is clearly accusatory in the PMs. You said You used the same account but changed IP's every time, which was pretty funny. Even in the email, you strongly insinuate that he is the culprit. I'm glad the illegitimate votes have been removed and that the matter is now clarified, but reading this, Avilo has a right to be upset.
Pm's are THEN, NOW is the final ruling which is what he posted, which obviously overrules whatever has been said before.
On March 23 2011 03:43 Random44 wrote: Avilo was well know for exploiting bugs in Red Alert 3, claiming that if EA hadn't fixed them then they were legit, even though EA was notoriously slow in fixing things.
So him doing something like this doesn't come as a surprise
I've never "exploited" anything in any game random troll. Don't try to de-rail this with stupid arguments about "scvs moving to a mineral patch stacking themselves is an exploit."
On March 23 2011 03:40 Termit wrote: The funny thing is, where would the votes come from if not from himself? Okey if he would be some crazy superstar of a player or some famous streamer but the guy has like 10 viewers on his crappy stream on a daily basis... so yeah the legit votes he have right now is probably from his family and friends. xD
Am i missing something? Why are people being so disrespectful towards Avilo? I'm sure it was just a misunderstanding and everything, but even in this thread people are calling his stream crappy and laughing about how only 43 people actually voted for him.
The guy didnt do anything wrong as far as i understand? I am just a little confused.
I guess it's just people being idiots or whatever?
Random people bandwagon on pointless internet hate because it makes them feel special. I haven't done anything wrong indeed.
On March 23 2011 03:35 whatthefat wrote: To be fair to Avilo, your wording is clearly accusatory in the PMs. You said You used the same account but changed IP's every time, which was pretty funny. Even in the email, you strongly insinuate that he is the culprit. I'm glad the illegitimate votes have been removed and that the matter is now clarified, but reading this, Avilo has a right to be upset.
Thank you for having common sense of why I am upset. These awesome NASL people, apparently from what Xeris has emailed me and told me, I have been deemed a hacker/cheater by the NASL and was completely removed from consideration due to fucking trolls on the internet that are out of my control.
And when I am PMing/Emailing with no responses, no contact with the owners, you can see why I have a right to get upset.
Jesus christ, man. Your claims are ridiculous. There is no evidence that you got these supposed "500+" votes, and now you're accusing the NASL of unprofessionalism and you're judging one fucking line that they said to you as the whole of what the NASL thinks in this situation, even though they just made a whole goddamn thread to clarify their standing.
Bottom line is they removed you because the large majority of your votes were illegitimate, get over it.
dem 500 DIEHARD FANS ...turn out to not care at all
The votes don't even mean anything. Avilo, you can't even be in the league yet because you don't have a team. This shit was pretty obvious, and you still manage to complain about it and look dumb.
Avilo it was not Xeris, or NASL even, that went through the votes and declared how many were real/fradulent, bitching about NASL will do you no good here.
On March 23 2011 03:35 whatthefat wrote: To be fair to Avilo, your wording is clearly accusatory in the PMs. You said You used the same account but changed IP's every time, which was pretty funny. Even in the email, you strongly insinuate that he is the culprit. I'm glad the illegitimate votes have been removed and that the matter is now clarified, but reading this, Avilo has a right to be upset.
Thank you for having common sense of why I am upset. These awesome NASL people, apparently from what Xeris has emailed me and told me, I have been deemed a hacker/cheater by the NASL and was completely removed from consideration due to fucking trolls on the internet that are out of my control.
And when I am PMing/Emailing with no responses, no contact with the owners, you can see why I have a right to get upset.
Jesus christ, man. Your claims are ridiculous. There is no evidence that you got these supposed "500+" votes, and now you're accusing the NASL of unprofessionalism and you're judging one fucking line that they said to you as the whole of what the NASL thinks in this situation, even though they just made a whole goddamn thread to clarify their standing.
Bottom line is they removed you because the large majority of your votes were illegitimate, get over it.
Well, if you would read, they have indeed accused me of hacking/cheating a poll that doesn't matter, as well as said via email that they are removing me from consideration period from the NASL because they are saying i hacked/cheated the polls.
Bottom line is they have told me they removed me because I cheated, when I certainly have not hacked/cheated anything. They can backtrack all they want now though.
If nothing else, the respond time to this is great and keeps us in the loop. Communication is probably the most respected part of starting this new league and hearing from you this quickly earns a ton of respect from me.
I was wondering myself who was voting for avilo so greatly that even players like Liquid players were not getting top notch, and just attributed it to having idra and artosis vying for him, but guess that isn't the case after all.
On March 23 2011 03:47 Torumfroll wrote: All I can say is that you NASL guys should have chosen your words more wisely when talking with avilo. The first few PMs does have an accusing tone and I can understand avilo being upset about being called a cheater/hacker.
People shouldn't get caught up in the details. People will try to focus on the negatives and claim that is the damning piece of evidence. It doesn't matter.
Should NASL remain professional at all times? Yes, but they're also human and Xeris is not a robot or a man with a fleet of secretaries responding to every email or phone call. I would have a hard time reacting to Avilo in Xeris' shoes. How long do you have to spend on somebody that, quite frankly, doesn't matter?
A response of, "There is no way you're getting invited to the NASL unless 50 people die." would have been very rude, but also accurate.
On March 23 2011 03:40 Termit wrote: The funny thing is, where would the votes come from if not from himself? Okey if he would be some crazy superstar of a player or some famous streamer but the guy has like 10 viewers on his crappy stream on a daily basis... so yeah the legit votes he have right now is probably from his family and friends. xD
The way I see it, someone figured out how to screw with the voting system, went on teamliquid.net, found avilo's name whether through a post or his stream, and thought it'd be funny to fuck with everyone by voting him to the top of the list.
Avilo isn't a notable enough player for him to be very high up on the list anyway; I don't understand what all this bitching is about. He had his twenty seconds of fame, and it's time to laugh it off and go on with life.
On March 23 2011 03:31 flodeskum wrote: Giving avilo's votes to artosis would be most reasonable thing to do.
By far the most reasonable idea presented in this thread.
On March 23 2011 03:35 whatthefat wrote: To be fair to Avilo, your wording is clearly accusatory in the PMs. You said You used the same account but changed IP's every time, which was pretty funny. Even in the email, you strongly insinuate that he is the culprit. I'm glad the illegitimate votes have been removed and that the matter is now clarified, but reading this, Avilo has a right to be upset.
Pm's are THEN, NOW is the final ruling which is what he posted, which obviously overrules whatever has been said before.
That doesn't make the past irrelevant. In the real world, unprofessional correspondence isn't usually erased by a quick "oh by the way, I meant something completely different to what I said".
On March 23 2011 03:49 SiN] wrote: dem 500 DIEHARD FANS ...turn out to not care at all
The votes don't even mean anything. Avilo, you can't even be in the league yet because you don't have a team. This shit was pretty obvious, and you still manage to complain about it and look dumb.
What the hell is your problem? What is with this random bashing, look at wtf is posted and going on. If you were in the same situation I would support you because it's absolute bullshit that they told me I am being removed from consideration and accusing me of cheating/hacking their polls.
Like jesus christ, they say the poll doesn't matter, but then they go and tell me they are removing me from all consideration and that I am a hacker/cheater?
On March 23 2011 03:46 dsousa wrote: Either there are a series of conspiracies against Avilo..... or the kids a little bit of trouble maker.
I just hope this isn't a sign that TOP KOREANS aren't on the list.... because if Avilo was ever considered, it would only be because he is from NA.
He's exactly the type of talent we got in NA.... which is why NASL should have TOP KOREANs!
Sucks to deal with this type of stuff though as an admin..... you know who is really manner? Top Koreans!
:D <3
He's probably a bit better than some of the players who will be chosen, the tournament won't be better or worse without him or anything, but he doesn't have things like a BW pedigree making him a lock for an invite tourney. He's kind of the poster boy for those players who could potentially make qualifiers but never make invitationals
On March 23 2011 03:51 avilo wrote: Bottom line is they have told me they removed me because I cheated, when I certainly have not hacked/cheated anything. They can backtrack all they want now though.
to quote Xeris from the OP:
To clarify: We are not accusing Avilo of cheating. It could have been him rigging the votes on the poll, or it could have been someone else rigging the votes on the poll. Either way, all the fake votes were removed, and the remaining, legitimate votes are... 43. So, Avilo was not removed from the poll, but his fake votes were.
to quote Xeris a 2nd time from the OP:
Once again: we are not accusing him of cheating. There is NO WAY for us to know exactly who gave him 23,000 votes, but they were fraudulent votes.
surely initially they did, or at least appeared to, but once the facts came out about your fraudulent votes it's clear something was incorrect
On March 23 2011 03:21 Xeris wrote: To clarify: We are not accusing Avilo of cheating.
PMs: "Ah, you were removed from the poll by uservoice. We investigated fraudulent voting and your votes were illegitimate. You used the same account but changed IP's every time, which was pretty funny. ".
But, I can't really take you seriously anymore. He has every right to think he was accused of cheating.
I think avilo is getting the short end of the stick here. And how can anyone believe he has only received 43 votes? He is definitely known well enough to draw more than that
I dunno. I think you made the right decision to remove Avilo from the voting. However you did accuse him of cheating in private, and even worse, now you've done so in public as well. You can't say:
"Ah, you were removed from the poll by uservoice. We investigated fraudulent voting and your votes were illegitimate. You used the same account but changed IP's every time, which was pretty funny. "
And then try to argue that you're not accusing him of cheating. Wishing doesn't make it so. You can't even argue that statement as a typo.
Seriously, you folks need a PR guy. The league hasn't started yet, and you've already made a series of rookie PR mistakes. I gotta give you guys credit for the transparency, but stuff like this makes your organization look very unprofessional.
On March 23 2011 03:43 Random44 wrote: Avilo was well know for exploiting bugs in Red Alert 3, claiming that if EA hadn't fixed them then they were legit, even though EA was notoriously slow in fixing things.
So him doing something like this doesn't come as a surprise
I've never "exploited" anything in any game random troll. Don't try to de-rail this with stupid arguments about "scvs moving to a mineral patch stacking themselves is an exploit."
You can't deny you used the cancel wall bug as allies in RA3 to build massive amounts of instant walls in all of your games.
A quote from YOU from back in the RA3 days "If building walls like this was cheating we'd see EA make an official statement about it. Otherwise, it's another skill element to the game, as you're able to build walls either way."
Here is Proof of Avilo exploiting in the form of a RA3 replay.
Ok, Avilo seems to be going way overboard and contesting all sorts of things (like the number of honest votes) that he has no reason at all to doubt. That said, this seems a little iffy:
"So we can't in good conscience keep you on a list to be considered knowing that you possibly rigged the voting; does that make sense?"
That seems to make it clear that he's being punished for "possibly rigging the voting." If you don't have any reason to be sure it was him, punishing him for it seems a bit unreasonable to me, even if he probably wouldn't have gotten into the league anyway. Sure, when there are tons of fake votes for him, he's the prime suspect, but I've seen plenty of online polls rigged pretty much just to prove the point that they're unreliable. It's not impossible that someone thought it would be funny to screw with it and make someone who would obviously not be that high get tons of votes.
I'm all for extremely harsh punishment of anyone cheating in any way, but you have to be pretty sure it was them doing the cheating first.
As one of the 43 people that voted for Avilo, I am sorely disappointed. I wanted to see him get owned in the first round when his bit-by-bit-prime rushes failed. please reconsider taking him off the waiting list.
@xeris--anyone ever consider why Avilo stayed quiet while he received 25,000 votes? Since he only allegedly has 500 fans, it is a wonder why he would even think it was legitimate. Did he contact you to say that he thought he was being trolled? or was he willing to take advantage of the situation so that he can get into NASL?
The OP makes mention multiple times of the fact that they're not saying whether or not it was him, or another party, just the fact that most of the votes were fraudulent. Even if avilo did have absolutely nothing to do with it whatsoever, which he probably didn't even, it still doesn't make any difference as to him not being on the list then, because almost the entirety of the votes were invalid.
Haha, AtheneWins' trolling has been more successful than I ever imagined anyone would let it be. I dont think he's picked a personality such as avilo to be the subject of his awesomeness by chance, though, seeing how willing avilo is to throw petrol on the fire. It does make for quite the show, if nothing else.
Well, at least NASL is professional enough to *not* offer "compensation" for something they clearly do not owe anything for. All we can hope for for avilo is that all those tons of fans get on their feet and vote legitimately now?
im confused by avilos attidude to them backtracking on their accusations. would you rather they didnt backtrack? whilst it was obviously a bad call to make accusations with so little evidence, it wasnt an unreasonable mistake to make.
On March 23 2011 03:21 Xeris wrote: To clarify: We are not accusing Avilo of cheating.
PMs: "Ah, you were removed from the poll by uservoice. We investigated fraudulent voting and your votes were illegitimate. You used the same account but changed IP's every time, which was pretty funny. ".
But, I can't really take you seriously anymore. He has every right to think he was accused of cheating.
I think avilo is getting the short end of the stick here
Thanks. Like I said, I don't give a shit if they don't let me in their mile high club or some shit at this point. But yeah...even the name Xeris gave to this thread title is pretty mocking and unprofessional. Like seriously? Accuse me of cheating, say you are barring me from your competition because of something I have no control of, and then on top of that mockingly insert lil comments via email/pm, and then mock me in the thread title? ...thanks NASL.
Please people chill out a bit yes Avilo`s votes turned out to be fraud, that still doesnt justify disrespect he got from Xeris, as he hasnt denied it I assume it is true. He may not be a machine or have a dire need for secretaries, we all can symphatize, that doesnt mean he shouldnt apologize if he has been too harsh or rude (and imo he has been)
On March 23 2011 03:49 SiN] wrote: dem 500 DIEHARD FANS ...turn out to not care at all
The votes don't even mean anything. Avilo, you can't even be in the league yet because you don't have a team. This shit was pretty obvious, and you still manage to complain about it and look dumb.
What the hell is your problem? What is with this random bashing, look at wtf is posted and going on. If you were in the same situation I would support you because it's absolute bullshit that they told me I am being removed from consideration and accusing me of cheating/hacking their polls.
Like jesus christ, they say the poll doesn't matter, but then they go and tell me they are removing me from all consideration and that I am a hacker/cheater?
Xeris already said you weren't in the first 50 anyways and the only reason you were on the standby was because of 23k fradulant votes. so what are u tryin to accomplish by saying u know you had a few hundred votes? it wouldn't matter anyways.
On March 23 2011 03:51 avilo wrote: Well, if you would read, they have indeed accused me of hacking/cheating a poll that doesn't matter, as well as said via email that they are removing me from consideration period from the NASL because they are saying i hacked/cheated the polls.
"To clarify: We are not accusing Avilo of cheating. It could have been him rigging the votes on the poll, or it could have been someone else rigging the votes on the poll. Either way, all the fake votes were removed, and the remaining, legitimate votes are... 43. So, Avilo was not removed from the poll, but his fake votes were. "
and
"Once again: we are not accusing him of cheating. There is NO WAY for us to know exactly who gave him 23,000 votes, but they were fraudulent votes. "
Bottom line is they have told me they removed me because I cheated, when I certainly have not hacked/cheated anything. They can backtrack all they want now though.
if you read the first post, it says you were only a standby, thats with your 23k votes, because of your position on the poll.
and even if you say you should have at least 1500-2k votes, it likely wouldnt have been enough to get you considered for even standby.
so in the end they didnt accuse you, and either way you wouldn't be in nasl...
On March 23 2011 03:36 avilo wrote: I highly doubt I only had 43 votes, as I know easily i've had 500+ supporters from various advertising, email lists, and lots of other "getting myself out there."
It's obvious that the votes were trolled heavily, not "just" my listing on the site either, but other players as well.
I can post the other emails that you have sent to me as well, where you claim I hacked the system, cheated it, and other sorts of stupid non-sense where you mockingly make an analogy of stealing a 1 dollar candy bar and basically act like assholes.
Such as the first instance where it was obvious my listing had been trolled/hacked, and you guys removed my name from the site. I PM'd asking for reasoning expecting you guys to be up front and reasonable about it, that you would re-add me to the site and that the votes were possibly trolled.
Instead Xeris, you responded telling me you originally deleted my entry from NASL "on accident" because you happened to "misclick on my username with the 'delete button'" out of all of the usernames to "misclick" on.
I have no problem with not getting into your elitist NASL club because I don't know the right people and have no former BW grandiose background, even though I've shown more results in SC2 than some people have that probably did make it in. What I have a problem with is you guys accusing me of being a hacker/cheater, and being complete a-holes towards me multiple times, when all I wanted is to apply for NASL, possibly get in, and be involved in this.
I certainly had more votes than "43," but you guys are absolutely ridiculous in your lack of professionalism. Like I said, ideally I would have wanted to be in the first batch of 50 "ordained by the gods" progamers to get in the NASL, but I have no problem not being in it, but I do have a problem when you guys accuse me of hacking/cheating when I have no history of cheating anything in my past 10+ years of gaming.
Basically, you guys are being elitist as hell (obviously the entire thing is) but you didn't have to be a-holes on top of that.
Oh my god man, Avilo, Avilio or what ever the **** your name is, stop this bitching now..
First of all, It was detected by the poll admin, that alot of votes where cheat. Wether you did it or not, all these votes are false, and don't count for nothing.
Second, The fact that you even think that you being high on that poll will put you in the NASL, clearly shows that you actually haven't read or heard anything about how that poll works. The poll is just for the community to get involved and share their opinion. Never has it been stated, that being high on the poll, will get you into the NASL.
Third, but definitely not last, who the hell are you? Seriously, how can you even think that you are among the 50 players participating in the NASL? If you check the forum once in a while, you would see the posts about who could actually be participating in the NASL. Do you really, seriously believe, that you are in the same caliber as the people being discussed? Remember, this isn't just about how good of a player you are, but alot more about you actually being a person that people can relate to, and actually want to see play.
Just face it, your a nobody. And being a nobody, doesn't get you into the NASL. IF you where remotely somewhere near being someone, you would have more than 43 votes. And don't give me no horsecrap about you know people voted for you. Its a well known poll site, so they know what their doing, when detecting fraud votes. Fraud votes removed, and you have 43. Just accept it.
On March 23 2011 03:49 SiN] wrote: dem 500 DIEHARD FANS ...turn out to not care at all
The votes don't even mean anything. Avilo, you can't even be in the league yet because you don't have a team. This shit was pretty obvious, and you still manage to complain about it and look dumb.
What the hell is your problem? What is with this random bashing, look at wtf is posted and going on. If you were in the same situation I would support you because it's absolute bullshit that they told me I am being removed from consideration and accusing me of cheating/hacking their polls.
Like jesus christ, they say the poll doesn't matter, but then they go and tell me they are removing me from all consideration and that I am a hacker/cheater?
Would you rather hear a honest answer like your not cutting it/ not good enough/ not enough achievements? Or hear something like you've messed with the system one way or another (this you know yourself its true) and therefore you will not be chosen to participate in NASL?
On March 23 2011 03:56 FrodaN wrote: Xeris and crew laying out the pwn. GL to avilo though...would have been interesting to see the personality in action at the NASL.
I'd rather see skill; something Avilo isn't that known for. Let's hope some kickass Koreans and Europeans get in.
"Ah, you were removed from the poll by uservoice. We investigated fraudulent voting and your votes were illegitimate. You used the same account but changed IP's every time, which was pretty funny. "
Tbh I would felt like I was accused of cheating if I received that kind om pm. That is the kind of stuff that can easily escalate to a bad argument when two parties are writing shit back and forth. Which is probably what has happened here already, and that is a shame for everyone.
Obviously his votes needed to be deleted, but the wording of that pm really was not the best.
On March 23 2011 03:43 cangiz wrote: Avilo, this toruney has to be elitist. Look at the prize pool... Stop making stupid arguments and just accept the fact that you had less than 50 votes.
You are a good player, but I dont feel you can compete in this tourney vs the koreans and the top NA/EU players.
And players like incontrol can? :D
I mean i'm sure he will get invited and every1 knows he has 0 achievements in sc2.
Also 43 votes on avilo seems low to me, since i'm sure he already had more then that from people over at gr.org alone.
Perhaps they should just do it fair all together, that basically means only invite Idra from NA and some of the top guys from EU and rest koreans. Then you have the real top 50.
On March 23 2011 03:49 SiN] wrote: dem 500 DIEHARD FANS ...turn out to not care at all
The votes don't even mean anything. Avilo, you can't even be in the league yet because you don't have a team. This shit was pretty obvious, and you still manage to complain about it and look dumb.
What the hell is your problem? What is with this random bashing, look at wtf is posted and going on. If you were in the same situation I would support you because it's absolute bullshit that they told me I am being removed from consideration and accusing me of cheating/hacking their polls.
Like jesus christ, they say the poll doesn't matter, but then they go and tell me they are removing me from all consideration and that I am a hacker/cheater?
Xeris already said you weren't in the first 50 anyways and the only reason you were on the standby was because of 23k fradulant votes. so what are u tryin to accomplish by saying u know you had a few hundred votes? it wouldn't matter anyways.
Exactly.
Xeris has made his statement and no amount of whining or arguing will change it. Now is the time to drop it before you dig yourself into a deeper hole.
On March 23 2011 03:56 imbs wrote: im confused by avilos attidude to them backtracking on their accusations. would you rather they didnt backtrack? whilst it was obviously a bad call to make accusations with so little evidence, it wasnt an unreasonable mistake to make.
It's obvious that they have to backtrack, because the mocking tone Xeris has shown me in emails/PMs is pretty disgusting, and he knew he accused me of hacking/cheating and that he had told me via email/PM that they were removing me from consideration because "I cheated" and they cannot on "good conscience" sacrifice the "legitimacy" of the tournament by letting me be on the backup list because their userpoll people said I cheated.
So he made this thread b4 I made it myself essentially.
You know what would be nice? If every person who talks about tournaments acting in a "professional manner" had to conduct themselves in a professional manner on these forums or when dealing with the tournament admins.
Much, much, much, much ado about nothing. Should Xeris' have chosen his words more carefully? Yes. Does it really matter? No.
When I saw the [NASL] title I thought they were releasing the first set of players, including Avilo, hah =/. The PMs/email did take quite a accusatory tone and I don't blame Avilo for responding negatively.
On March 23 2011 03:49 SiN] wrote: dem 500 DIEHARD FANS ...turn out to not care at all
The votes don't even mean anything. Avilo, you can't even be in the league yet because you don't have a team. This shit was pretty obvious, and you still manage to complain about it and look dumb.
What the hell is your problem? What is with this random bashing, look at wtf is posted and going on. If you were in the same situation I would support you because it's absolute bullshit that they told me I am being removed from consideration and accusing me of cheating/hacking their polls.
Like jesus christ, they say the poll doesn't matter, but then they go and tell me they are removing me from all consideration and that I am a hacker/cheater?
You bitch about everything and like to pretend you had more than 43 votes and a "top level player", as if the people in NASL are trying to work against you. And yeah, the poll doesn't matter, but that didn't stop you from making a blog about it, or calling the people in NASL elitist, assholes, and everything else of the like.
If I was in the same situation, I wouldn't try to make such a big deal of it and try to look like a victim. It's not that you hack or whatever, it's that you complain and are so negative towards NASL that this starts to happen.
On March 23 2011 03:54 dAPhREAk wrote: @xeris--anyone ever consider why Avilo stayed quiet while he received 25,000 votes? Since he only allegedly has 500 fans, it is a wonder why he would even think it was legitimate. Did he contact you to say that he thought he was being trolled? or was he willing to take advantage of the situation so that he can get into NASL?
Very good question.
Also Avilo, if you read the thread you will see they say they don't know who cheated the system, but when the frauds were out, you had only 43 left, so the reason you were picked was not the case anymore. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.
On March 23 2011 03:58 I_Love_Bacon wrote: You know what would be nice? If every person who talks about tournaments acting in a "professional manner" had to conduct themselves in a professional manner on these forums or when dealing with the tournament admins.
Much, much, much, much ado about nothing. Should Xeris' have chosen his words more carefully? Yes. Does it really matter? No.
On March 23 2011 03:56 imbs wrote: im confused by avilos attidude to them backtracking on their accusations. would you rather they didnt backtrack? whilst it was obviously a bad call to make accusations with so little evidence, it wasnt an unreasonable mistake to make.
It's obvious that they have to backtrack, because the mocking tone Xeris has shown me in emails/PMs is pretty disgusting, and he knew he accused me of hacking/cheating and that he had told me via email/PM that they were removing me from consideration because "I cheated" and they cannot on "good conscience" sacrifice the "legitimacy" of the tournament by letting me be on the backup list because their userpoll people said I cheated.
So he made this thread b4 I made it myself essentially.
as several people already pointed out, your also being removed from the standby list because they used that list in relation to how many votes you got. Turns out your votes are fake so your off the list because you aren't in even the top margin of voted in people.
Keeping what I said in mind please kindly get off this martyr position you have about elitism and what not and realize that this is the internet.
On March 23 2011 03:54 dAPhREAk wrote: As one of the 43 people that voted for Avilo, I am sorely disappointed. I wanted to see him get owned in the first round when his bit-by-bit-prime rushes failed. please reconsider taking him off the waiting list.
@xeris--anyone ever consider why Avilo stayed quiet while he received 25,000 votes? Since he only allegedly has 500 fans, it is a wonder why he would even think it was legitimate. Did he contact you to say that he thought he was being trolled? or was he willing to take advantage of the situation so that he can get into NASL?
Why the hell do you think I ever thought a lot of the votes were legitamate? Everyone knows their polls were trolled/hacked, and whenever some random person on bnet msg'd me about it, I'd always jsut tell them that a couple thousand votes might be legit, but the rest of the poll got trolled by someone, and it's out of my control.
Seriously, stop bashing me, I would want the NASL to have nothing but success like most people, but I doubt they will have as much as they want if they do stupid shit like this and have to backtrack over everything they do because they don't know wtf they are doing.
On March 23 2011 03:54 dAPhREAk wrote: As one of the 43 people that voted for Avilo, I am sorely disappointed. I wanted to see him get owned in the first round when his bit-by-bit-prime rushes failed. please reconsider taking him off the waiting list.
@xeris--anyone ever consider why Avilo stayed quiet while he received 25,000 votes? Since he only allegedly has 500 fans, it is a wonder why he would even think it was legitimate. Did he contact you to say that he thought he was being trolled? or was he willing to take advantage of the situation so that he can get into NASL?
I don't think that's a good line of thought to focus on at all. Nobody should be held accountable for the actions of others in a situation like that. Anything can happen on the internet.
Amazing all the "tolerant" members of TL go crazy on Avilo for something
1) He is accused of doing and mocked 2) He didn't do 3) Bashed by community
You guys are crazy. I wasn't a fan of avilo before this but now I think I will be. Going for it without a team and everyone bashing him constantly, good for him.
On March 23 2011 03:49 SiN] wrote: dem 500 DIEHARD FANS ...turn out to not care at all
The votes don't even mean anything. Avilo, you can't even be in the league yet because you don't have a team. This shit was pretty obvious, and you still manage to complain about it and look dumb.
What the hell is your problem? What is with this random bashing, look at wtf is posted and going on. If you were in the same situation I would support you because it's absolute bullshit that they told me I am being removed from consideration and accusing me of cheating/hacking their polls.
Like jesus christ, they say the poll doesn't matter, but then they go and tell me they are removing me from all consideration and that I am a hacker/cheater?
You bitch about everything and like to pretend you had more than 43 votes and a "top level player", as if the people in NASL are trying to work against you. And yeah, the poll doesn't matter, but that didn't stop you from making a blog about it, or calling the people in NASL elitist, assholes, and everything else of the like.
If I was in the same situation, I wouldn't try to make such a big deal of it and try to look like a victim. It's not that you hack or whatever, it's that you complain and are so negative towards NASL that this starts to happen.
Hey dude. I'm screwed if i do, and if i don't. If i don't speak up, then these guys just walk all over me and say i'm a cheater and barr me from their league. IF I do, then people are going to give me flak for defending myself, etc.
On March 23 2011 03:54 dAPhREAk wrote: As one of the 43 people that voted for Avilo, I am sorely disappointed. I wanted to see him get owned in the first round when his bit-by-bit-prime rushes failed. please reconsider taking him off the waiting list.
@xeris--anyone ever consider why Avilo stayed quiet while he received 25,000 votes? Since he only allegedly has 500 fans, it is a wonder why he would even think it was legitimate. Did he contact you to say that he thought he was being trolled? or was he willing to take advantage of the situation so that he can get into NASL?
Why the hell do you think I ever thought a lot of the votes were legitamate? Everyone knows their polls were trolled/hacked, and whenever some random person on bnet msg'd me about it, I'd always jsut tell them that a couple thousand votes might be legit, but the rest of the poll got trolled by someone, and it's out of my control.
Seriously, stop bashing me, I would want the NASL to have nothing but success like most people, but I doubt they will have as much as they want if they do stupid shit like this and have to backtrack over everything they do because they don't know wtf they are doing.
I would like to take back my vote. You only have 42 now.
On March 23 2011 03:43 cangiz wrote: Avilo, this toruney has to be elitist. Look at the prize pool... Stop making stupid arguments and just accept the fact that you had less than 50 votes.
You are a good player, but I dont feel you can compete in this tourney vs the koreans and the top NA/EU players.
And players like incontrol can? :D
I mean i'm sure he will get invited and every1 knows he has 0 achievements in sc2.
Also 43 votes on avilo seems low to me, since i'm sure he already had more then that from people over at gr.org alone.
Perhaps they should just do it fair all together, that basically means only invite Idra from NA and some of the top guys from EU and rest koreans. Then you have the real top 50.
I honestly hope iNc isn't invited either; he hasn't shown himself to be top 50 in the world or close yet at SC2. That said, he's not really part of the discussion at hand.
On March 23 2011 03:40 Termit wrote: The funny thing is, where would the votes come from if not from himself? Okey if he would be some crazy superstar of a player or some famous streamer but the guy has like 10 viewers on his crappy stream on a daily basis... so yeah the legit votes he have right now is probably from his family and friends. xD
Am i missing something? Why are people being so disrespectful towards Avilo? I'm sure it was just a misunderstanding and everything, but even in this thread people are calling his stream crappy and laughing about how only 43 people actually voted for him.
The guy didnt do anything wrong as far as i understand? I am just a little confused.
I guess it's just people being idiots or whatever?
If you read basically any post on him from this thread it should be pretty easy to see why people have a negative attitude towards him. I am honestly starting to think that he is just trolling. As regards to "accusing" him of hacking\rigging the vote them said. There was 1 sentence that implied that in the first PM, and it has been retracted. And its pretty apparent regardless of what he has or has not done to be slightly suspicious, I mean assume your house is robbed and you see a guys car outside with all of your stuff in it, is your first thought\reaction that someone took all your stuff and put it in that guys car to troll you?
The only reason people do not believe it is avilo is because it is so obvious that nobody could ever be stupid enough to think that they would get away with it or whatever. But then again this is the internet so you never know.
On March 23 2011 03:54 dAPhREAk wrote: As one of the 43 people that voted for Avilo, I am sorely disappointed. I wanted to see him get owned in the first round when his bit-by-bit-prime rushes failed. please reconsider taking him off the waiting list.
@xeris--anyone ever consider why Avilo stayed quiet while he received 25,000 votes? Since he only allegedly has 500 fans, it is a wonder why he would even think it was legitimate. Did he contact you to say that he thought he was being trolled? or was he willing to take advantage of the situation so that he can get into NASL?
Seriously, stop bashing me, I would want the NASL to have nothing but success like most people, but I doubt they will have as much as they want if they do stupid shit like this and have to backtrack over everything they do because they don't know wtf they are doing.
Jesus. So much sense of false outrage. Did they accuse you to the public of being a hacker, cheater, or shady individual? No, Xeris dealt with you through PM's in a manner that wasn't ideal, but hardly the insult you're making it out to be.
Also, you want the NASL to be fail. Your repeated spiteful comments in this thread and others are 100x less professional than Xeris' comments to you.
Dude... Get over it. Someone (or you) cheated to try to get you mass votes and that is not acceptable, therefore, you were removed. Why does this not make sense to you? From the looks of the PM's and E-mails, Xeris never accused you of cheating directly either.
On March 23 2011 03:49 SiN] wrote: dem 500 DIEHARD FANS ...turn out to not care at all
The votes don't even mean anything. Avilo, you can't even be in the league yet because you don't have a team. This shit was pretty obvious, and you still manage to complain about it and look dumb.
What the hell is your problem? What is with this random bashing, look at wtf is posted and going on. If you were in the same situation I would support you because it's absolute bullshit that they told me I am being removed from consideration and accusing me of cheating/hacking their polls.
Like jesus christ, they say the poll doesn't matter, but then they go and tell me they are removing me from all consideration and that I am a hacker/cheater?
You bitch about everything and like to pretend you had more than 43 votes and a "top level player", as if the people in NASL are trying to work against you. And yeah, the poll doesn't matter, but that didn't stop you from making a blog about it, or calling the people in NASL elitist, assholes, and everything else of the like.
If I was in the same situation, I wouldn't try to make such a big deal of it and try to look like a victim. It's not that you hack or whatever, it's that you complain and are so negative towards NASL that this starts to happen.
Hey dude. I'm screwed if i do, and if i don't. If i don't speak up, then these guys just walk all over me and say i'm a cheater and barr me from their league. IF I do, then people are going to give me flak for defending myself, etc.
I legitimately do not understand your thought process here. In reading the entire thread so far it was made clear by xeris multiple times that it could have just as easily have been someone else. I don't understand what you're not seeing there.
Since there's no way to tell WHO actually did the votes, it's basically Avilo's word that he didn't versus uservoice's evidence that all his votes were rigged.
I don't understand how anyone could think this is a good way to look at it at all.
It's a fact that the votes were rigged. No one is disputing it. The number might be in dispute, but that's not important. It's not in dispute that at least about 18,000 votes were rigged.
Is there any evidence that avilo is responsible for the rigged votes? Absolutely not.
That's all you've got is motive. But then there are alternate explanations, like this whole "let's spell Athene on the front page" thing and haters of avilo who just want to screw with him by giving him fraudulent votes (he has gathered plenty of haters just because of his passionate posts on teamliquid.net). And you've got avilo saying he didn't do it.
Now look up again at what I quoted at the start of this post. It doesn't make sense to say "it's avilo's word against uservoice's evidence that votes were rigged."
That's all you can say is "We've determined that votes were rigged. We've got an accurate vote count now. We'll work from there. We were unable to obtain any leads or evidence that might point us toward the culprit so unfortunately we won't be pursuing it or taking any actions against anyone."
In my opinion, Xeris/NASL should apologize to avilo and NASL absolutely should not penalize him in any way.
On March 23 2011 03:54 RoboBob wrote: And then try to argue that you're not accusing him of cheating. Wishing doesn't make it so. You can't even argue that statement as a typo.
Seriously, you folks need a PR guy. The league hasn't started yet, and you've already made a series of rookie PR mistakes. I gotta give you guys credit for the transparency, but stuff like this makes your organization look very unprofessional.
Absolute truth. The NASL owe Avilo an apology. You straight up accused him of cheating with no proof.
He has every right to feel hard done by, he never claimed to be a shoe-in for a spot in the top50. But to be turned down, called a cheater, AND removed from the standby list is a completely disgraceful thing to do to someone.
I am not a friend or fan of Avilo, as a relative noob to the sc2 scene I have no idea who he is. But fair is fair and you are in a position which holds some sway with the community just by being a part of the NASL organization. By throwing out that accusation (and yes you did accuse him) you have branded him as a cheater and cry baby forever. He will never hear the end of this. Its extremely unprofessional and really does not bode well for the future of the NASL.
edit: Tyler beat me to it. Perhaps his name will lend my point some weight.
I'm not surprised in the slightest. It never made sense in the first place why such a, shall I say, nub, was up there with IdrA/Jinro/Artosis in the polls.
They just mean the voting isn't the end-all. If someone is really popular, ofc they'll look at him a little more. But being popular doesn't = you're in guaranteed.
On March 23 2011 03:49 SiN] wrote: dem 500 DIEHARD FANS ...turn out to not care at all
The votes don't even mean anything. Avilo, you can't even be in the league yet because you don't have a team. This shit was pretty obvious, and you still manage to complain about it and look dumb.
What the hell is your problem? What is with this random bashing, look at wtf is posted and going on. If you were in the same situation I would support you because it's absolute bullshit that they told me I am being removed from consideration and accusing me of cheating/hacking their polls.
Like jesus christ, they say the poll doesn't matter, but then they go and tell me they are removing me from all consideration and that I am a hacker/cheater?
You bitch about everything and like to pretend you had more than 43 votes and a "top level player", as if the people in NASL are trying to work against you. And yeah, the poll doesn't matter, but that didn't stop you from making a blog about it, or calling the people in NASL elitist, assholes, and everything else of the like.
If I was in the same situation, I wouldn't try to make such a big deal of it and try to look like a victim. It's not that you hack or whatever, it's that you complain and are so negative towards NASL that this starts to happen.
Hey dude. I'm screwed if i do, and if i don't. If i don't speak up, then these guys just walk all over me and say i'm a cheater and barr me from their league. IF I do, then people are going to give me flak for defending myself, etc.
Never heard of this guy and he had more votes than idra? That's like super suspicious. Hope we wont see him in NASL, because his application was weird X.x
On March 23 2011 04:02 Chylo wrote: Amazing all the "tolerant" members of TL go crazy on Avilo for something
1) He is accused of doing and mocked 2) He didn't do 3) Bashed by community
You guys are crazy. I wasn't a fan of avilo before this but now I think I will be. Going for it without a team and everyone bashing him constantly, good for him.
Keep in mind that he has an history of bad posting and bad/arrogant manners on TL (atleast everytime I saw him).
Not that Xeris was totally right to do what he did, but well, the whole thing doesnt really deserve all the Drama, he wouldn't have get in with his votes anyway.
On March 23 2011 04:02 Chylo wrote: Amazing all the "tolerant" members of TL go crazy on Avilo for something
1) He is accused of doing and mocked 2) He didn't do 3) Bashed by community
You guys are crazy. I wasn't a fan of avilo before this but now I think I will be. Going for it without a team and everyone bashing him constantly, good for him.
Well he's just being a crybaby about it. The internet isn't going let that one go.
Summary of the story so far: - NASL spotted and erased an exploit in their voting system. - This change some minor bureaucracy thing behind the seens, knocking Avilo off the waitlist. - Xeris makes a post stating their position - Avilo, um, "endears" himself to the TL community even further - Life (and NASL) continues as normal
It's not speaking up that is the problem. It's the way you go about doing it. Attacking NASL and complaining for what has happened is the reason you get flak.
On March 23 2011 04:05 GreEny K wrote: Dude... Get over it. Someone (or you) cheated to try to get you mass votes and that is not acceptable, therefore, you were removed. Why does this not make sense to you? From the looks of the PM's and E-mails, Xeris never accused you of cheating directly either.
There's most definitely an accusation in the very first PM, which was later clarified. What that means and what kind of response it warrants is up for interpretation.
Friendly reminder that we should all stay civilized here. We all knew this was coming, including Avilo, there is no reason to continue to chew each other out for no apparent reason. Next time you hit post, think if it's going to incite some more NEGATIVE responses, thanks. This thread went downhill faster than a.............*insert clever analogy*.
On March 23 2011 03:54 dAPhREAk wrote: As one of the 43 people that voted for Avilo, I am sorely disappointed. I wanted to see him get owned in the first round when his bit-by-bit-prime rushes failed. please reconsider taking him off the waiting list.
@xeris--anyone ever consider why Avilo stayed quiet while he received 25,000 votes? Since he only allegedly has 500 fans, it is a wonder why he would even think it was legitimate. Did he contact you to say that he thought he was being trolled? or was he willing to take advantage of the situation so that he can get into NASL?
Why the hell do you think I ever thought a lot of the votes were legitamate? Everyone knows their polls were trolled/hacked, and whenever some random person on bnet msg'd me about it, I'd always jsut tell them that a couple thousand votes might be legit, but the rest of the poll got trolled by someone, and it's out of my control.
Seriously, stop bashing me, I would want the NASL to have nothing but success like most people, but I doubt they will have as much as they want if they do stupid shit like this and have to backtrack over everything they do because they don't know wtf they are doing.
this actually made me lol
I mean no disrespect toward you avilo but it sounds to me like you cant be an adult and accept the fact that you didn't make it in because you weren't actually voted in. I mean maybe having 23k+ votes got ur hopes up (i know it would get mine up) but srsly, Xeris did have some faulty wording in that first pm but he did come back and rephrase and yet thats all you are clinging to. Xeris said more then once that they don't know if it was you who rigged the votes or not( b/c there is no way to know) and that they don't accuse you of cheating. imo if you were professional and as "top" a player as you think then you would just go win the offline qualifier and show everyone up. amirite?
On March 23 2011 03:49 SiN] wrote: dem 500 DIEHARD FANS ...turn out to not care at all
The votes don't even mean anything. Avilo, you can't even be in the league yet because you don't have a team. This shit was pretty obvious, and you still manage to complain about it and look dumb.
What the hell is your problem? What is with this random bashing, look at wtf is posted and going on. If you were in the same situation I would support you because it's absolute bullshit that they told me I am being removed from consideration and accusing me of cheating/hacking their polls.
Like jesus christ, they say the poll doesn't matter, but then they go and tell me they are removing me from all consideration and that I am a hacker/cheater?
You bitch about everything and like to pretend you had more than 43 votes and a "top level player", as if the people in NASL are trying to work against you. And yeah, the poll doesn't matter, but that didn't stop you from making a blog about it, or calling the people in NASL elitist, assholes, and everything else of the like.
If I was in the same situation, I wouldn't try to make such a big deal of it and try to look like a victim. It's not that you hack or whatever, it's that you complain and are so negative towards NASL that this starts to happen.
Hey dude. I'm screwed if i do, and if i don't. If i don't speak up, then these guys just walk all over me and say i'm a cheater and barr me from their league. IF I do, then people are going to give me flak for defending myself, etc.
prove everyone wrong and win some tourneys...
Uh how is that proving people wrong? It is certainly within his right to defend himself, right or wrong. Not like he has to win a tournament to prove he was right. That's some flawed logic.
On March 23 2011 03:54 dAPhREAk wrote: @xeris--anyone ever consider why Avilo stayed quiet while he received 25,000 votes? Since he only allegedly has 500 fans, it is a wonder why he would even think it was legitimate. Did he contact you to say that he thought he was being trolled? or was he willing to take advantage of the situation so that he can get into NASL?
Very good question.
Also Avilo, if you read the thread you will see they say they don't know who cheated the system, but when the frauds were out, you had only 43 left, so the reason you were picked was not the case anymore. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.
Is avilo saying he should be picked? He is just upset his word being smeared by a very well know person with circumstantial evidence only (at best).
Now i dont know who and why didi it, but if i would have to decide I would not value anyones intelligence so low to rack up vote count so obviously fake. Did avilo assume it was clearly a fraud number of votes and decided to not to bother contacting admins or indeed was willing to take advantage from it we will never know, the fact is that is not his PROBLEM, thats voting sites/admin/w.e. problem. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.
I stand behind I_Love_Bacon, even though I'm not the biggest fan of bacon but I can lay that aside. Especially on the communication things, it's well said.
On March 23 2011 04:07 Liquid`Tyler wrote: In my opinion, Xeris/NASL should apologize to avilo and NASL absolutely should not penalize him in any way.
Isnt that *exactly* what they're saying in this thread that they're NOT doing (penalizing him)?
They can go ahead and apologize all they want - whether it's justified or not its still a good display of professionalism - but I do not get the penalized thing. At all.
Since there's no way to tell WHO actually did the votes, it's basically Avilo's word that he didn't versus uservoice's evidence that all his votes were rigged.
I don't understand how anyone could think this is a good way to look at it at all.
It's a fact that the votes were rigged. No one is disputing it. The number might be in dispute, but that's not important. It's not in dispute that at least about 18,000 votes were rigged.
Is there any evidence that avilo is responsible for the rigged votes? Absolutely not.
That's all you've got is motive. But then there are alternate explanations, like this whole "let's spell Athene on the front page" thing and haters of avilo who just want to screw with him by giving him fraudulent votes (he has gathered plenty of haters just because of his passionate posts on teamliquid.net). And you've got avilo saying he didn't do it.
Now look up again at what I quoted at the start of this post. It doesn't make sense to say "it's avilo's word against uservoice's evidence that votes were rigged."
In my opinion, Xeris/NASL should apologize to avilo and NASL absolutely should not penalize him in any way.
I'm not sure about "penalize". If upon the removal of the false votes, Avilo had only 43 votes, the number of votes matter in your placement in the backup list, then it would be appropriate to take him off the list. So then I guess the key point is whether or not the backup list has a requirement of votes.
In my opinion, Xeris/NASL should apologize to avilo and NASL absolutely should not penalize him in any way.
I agree with Tyler, it seems like people have lost their minds in this topic and are hell bent on hating on some guy most of us barely even know.
He isent complaining that he wont get in NASL, he is complaining (rightfully so) that he was accused of being the cheater
There is no proof that Avilo did any of this
There is proof that he was accused of cheating
People love freaking drama, and why not jump on this horse and hate on someone, but entertainment aside: Look at this logically and half the people in this thread are trashing this guy. Let me remind you, he did not even make this topic, he didnt even bring this up, yet now he is getting scorned from people asking him if he thinks he is "good enough" to be in the tournament when that was never the reason why he was upset.
Put the "lulz trollin'" aside, and realise why he being unfairly treated here.
On March 23 2011 03:49 SiN] wrote: dem 500 DIEHARD FANS ...turn out to not care at all
The votes don't even mean anything. Avilo, you can't even be in the league yet because you don't have a team. This shit was pretty obvious, and you still manage to complain about it and look dumb.
What the hell is your problem? What is with this random bashing, look at wtf is posted and going on. If you were in the same situation I would support you because it's absolute bullshit that they told me I am being removed from consideration and accusing me of cheating/hacking their polls.
Like jesus christ, they say the poll doesn't matter, but then they go and tell me they are removing me from all consideration and that I am a hacker/cheater?
You bitch about everything and like to pretend you had more than 43 votes and a "top level player", as if the people in NASL are trying to work against you. And yeah, the poll doesn't matter, but that didn't stop you from making a blog about it, or calling the people in NASL elitist, assholes, and everything else of the like.
If I was in the same situation, I wouldn't try to make such a big deal of it and try to look like a victim. It's not that you hack or whatever, it's that you complain and are so negative towards NASL that this starts to happen.
Hey dude. I'm screwed if i do, and if i don't. If i don't speak up, then these guys just walk all over me and say i'm a cheater and barr me from their league. IF I do, then people are going to give me flak for defending myself, etc.
prove everyone wrong and win some tourneys...
Uh how is that proving people wrong? It is certainly within his right to defend himself, right or wrong. Not like he has to win a tournament to prove he was right. That's some flawed logic.
The point is people will always forgive and forget if he moves on and becomes a success. Look at past cheaters (who were actually PROVEN to have cheated): TT1, Dimaga, Haypro, etc. Everyone got over it because they got over it first. Avilo isn't even in as bad of a position as those guys and if he just moves on and becomes an awesome players, the community will be with him.
On March 23 2011 03:49 SiN] wrote: dem 500 DIEHARD FANS ...turn out to not care at all
The votes don't even mean anything. Avilo, you can't even be in the league yet because you don't have a team. This shit was pretty obvious, and you still manage to complain about it and look dumb.
What the hell is your problem? What is with this random bashing, look at wtf is posted and going on. If you were in the same situation I would support you because it's absolute bullshit that they told me I am being removed from consideration and accusing me of cheating/hacking their polls.
Like jesus christ, they say the poll doesn't matter, but then they go and tell me they are removing me from all consideration and that I am a hacker/cheater?
You bitch about everything and like to pretend you had more than 43 votes and a "top level player", as if the people in NASL are trying to work against you. And yeah, the poll doesn't matter, but that didn't stop you from making a blog about it, or calling the people in NASL elitist, assholes, and everything else of the like.
If I was in the same situation, I wouldn't try to make such a big deal of it and try to look like a victim. It's not that you hack or whatever, it's that you complain and are so negative towards NASL that this starts to happen.
Hey dude. I'm screwed if i do, and if i don't. If i don't speak up, then these guys just walk all over me and say i'm a cheater and barr me from their league. IF I do, then people are going to give me flak for defending myself, etc.
Wow... it's like you honestly don't know how to act with kindness and decency. If you were persistent in saying that you had nothing to do with the votes, and did not know who was doing it... I think that would have been enough and they would have let it go (after removing the votes). Instead, you seemed to focus on how unfair the whole situation was for you and how unprofessional they are... do you really not see the difference?
It's not a lose-lose situation. You can speak up without trying to insult them and complain the whole way through. I think you didn't because you felt the votes were your one way of hanging on as an opportunity to get in so you tried to be as persistent as possible. I might be wrong on that part, but saying you were screwed either way is a joke.
On March 23 2011 03:43 cangiz wrote: Avilo, this toruney has to be elitist. Look at the prize pool... Stop making stupid arguments and just accept the fact that you had less than 50 votes.
You are a good player, but I dont feel you can compete in this tourney vs the koreans and the top NA/EU players.
And players like incontrol can? :D
I mean i'm sure he will get invited and every1 knows he has 0 achievements in sc2.
Also 43 votes on avilo seems low to me, since i'm sure he already had more then that from people over at gr.org alone.
Perhaps they should just do it fair all together, that basically means only invite Idra from NA and some of the top guys from EU and rest koreans. Then you have the real top 50.
I agree on all of your points. I also think Avilo is being a little rude, but I bet a lot of people would be in his situation.
Seriously avilo has been spamming the NASL threads since day 1. You can understand his enthusiasm to participate in such a league but this drama now really ?.
If the NASL stays true to their credo to have the 50 best players in it. ( Which they wont have ). Do you actually believe you are one of them ? ....
The only reason you are getting so much attention is due to your votes which are invalid...
My only question is, if avilo recieved troll votes, isn't it obvious that a lot of other people might have..? Sorry if this was already mentionned, didn't read the whole thread.
Lol at avail saying there is no professionism when he just uses the f word. 500 votes... How does he know he have 500 votes. He's got 500 friends he knows personally. Anyways the op has proof of fraud voting. But where is avilos proof of his 500 real life friends. Anyways besides the accusation of mass voting, hasn't the issue been clear that he still remains in the list just without the fake votes? Si why all the bickering still when the issue is solved? Me do not get it
In my opinion, Xeris/NASL should apologize to avilo and NASL absolutely should not penalize him in any way.
I agree with Tyler, it seems like people have lost their minds in this topic and are hell bent on hating on some guy most of us barely even know.
He isent complaining that he wont get in NASL, he is complaining (rightfully so) that he was accused of being the cheater
There is no proof that Avilo did any of this
There is proof that he was accused of cheating
People love freaking drama, and why not jump on this horse and hate on someone, but entertainment aside: Look at this logically and half the people in this thread are trashing this guy. Let me remind you, he did not even make this topic, he didnt even bring this up, yet now he is getting scorned from people asking him if he thinks he is "good enough" to be in the tournament when that was never the reason why he was upset.
Put the "lulz trollin'" aside, and realise why he being unfairly treated here.
Oh finally! This is a good post. Let's just go with the facts that we know.
I've read this entire thread. Wow. I see a few things that stand out to me, and heres my opinions:
1) Xeris worded his first PM poorly, but quickly remedied the situation in subsequent PMs/emails. Mistakes happen, not really that big of a deal. He didn't accuse idra of hacking, he accused some dude we don't know.
2) Now that avilo has been removed from the backup list, he is attempting to slander a tournament for being biased, unprofessional, and illegitimate. Sorry, but this tournament is more important in the grand scheme of e-sports then your meager pissing contest. Funny, you were the biggest NASL fan until they removed you from the list.
3) Watching avilo's stream you will clearly and quickly see he is a young, obnoxious, and whiney player. He complains about imbalance in every TvX matchup, and disrespects/BMs players more accomplished than himself in ladder matches.
4) Who cares? Hes almost as no-name and random as I am. You had fraudulent votes - they were removed - you can't play in the league. Get. Over. It.
5) You say you're more accomplished than some of the people they will choose. Who have they chosen? What are your accomplishments? Being in masters league isn't an accomplishment, regardless of your point total.
6) Woot NASL players to be announced soon, can't wait! 2011 esports should be amazing.
Edit:
After reading a few of the PMs below its obvious NASL needs to tighten up a bit. You're a professional organization now. You should be spitting out robotic answers to inquiries. If you need to hire community managers to do this, than do it.
Tyler I don't see how they're "penalizing" him. If most of his votes were fraudulent, and he had only 43 votes or however many, then why should he be on the waiting list with that few votes? It's just a matter of the exploit being corrected and things working out the exact same way they would have if nobody had "hacked" the voting system in his favor in the first place.
On March 23 2011 04:07 Liquid`Tyler wrote: In my opinion, Xeris/NASL should apologize to avilo and NASL absolutely should not penalize him in any way.
I agree on NASL apologizing to Avilo because they haven't actually done so despite backtracking on their words. To my knowledge he hasn't been punished any way unless you mean the removal of fake votes as a punishment, which just seems silly. The fact that they were illegal votes automatically invalidates them - there is no better alternative choice.
EDIT:
On March 23 2011 04:13 intergalactic wrote: My only question is, if avilo recieved troll votes, isn't it obvious that a lot of other people might have..? Sorry if this was already mentionned, didn't read the whole thread.
The OP says that they ran a check on everyone on the first page and those were the only ones that counted I guess?
On March 23 2011 04:13 intergalactic wrote: My only question is, if avilo recieved troll votes, isn't it obvious that a lot of other people might have..? Sorry if this was already mentionned, didn't read the whole thread.
It was mentioned that the company running the voting system has measures to prevent cheated votes, specifically two "layers." It sounded to me that avilo just happened to have a lot of them, and they were removed.
That said, do you really doubt anyone on the front page deserves to be there?
Although it's great you guys (NASL) are trying to be open about the issue, this REALLY isn't the way. What you should have done is posted an apology for the first PM where Avilo was accused of rigging the votes himself, explained that the fraudulent votes were removed and then leave it at that. By being so defensive you're only turning it into a bigger issue then it needs to be.
jesus christ, stop bashing me for no goddamn reason. It's gotten old since the beta, seriously.
Obviously, I won't be in the first 50, they already said that. Why do people think I don't have a right to speak up for myself? Jesus christ even the title of this thread is fucking mocking me. Good stuff yeah?
Here's some original msgs when I was first removed from their dumb polls a month or so ago. ty tyler for being a voice of reason, and obviously i won't be in their first 50 club, but that doesn't mean i want to be taken out of consideration as an alternate or whatever in the future because these people are telling me i cheated their poll.
some lovely PMs where i'm left dumbfounded from weeks ago:
Original Message From Xeris: no clue, nobody has touched that site in awhile, players already decided anyways, plus voting doesn't matter.
some more recent after they accuse me of being some lowly hacker/cheater:
Original Message From Xeris: What I said was that you used the same account for your votes, whether it was you specifically or someone doing it for you, I don't know, I guess there's really no way to tell if it was you or someone trolling you. Either way, almost all of the votes to your name weren't legitimate.
The polling doesn't matter, but someone trying to cheat the system does matter. Stealing a $1 candy bar doesn't make a huge difference, but if I actually did that it would make a difference because stealing is bad. So your analogy that even if you cheated it shouldn't matter because the poll doesn't matter is wrong.
So, whether it was you, or someone randomly deciding to rig the poll to give you 23,000 votes or however many you had -- we can't tell. All we know is that the votes you received were fraudulent. So we can't in good conscience keep you on a list to be considered knowing that you possibly rigged the voting; does that make sense?
Original Message From avilo: How is that my fault when your voting system is public? Any random idiot can troll the voting system.
Accusing me of cheating or hacking a online poll that doesn't matter according to you guys, and would lower my standing in the community... is absolutely ridiculous. Just as ridiculous as you accusing me of cheating for something, that as said...doesn't even matter.
Which on top of that, is even more ridiculous that you deleted when you guys claim the votes don't mean anything.
Sure, no conspiracy, except that you guys keep doing everything you can to keep me out of your tournament which you claim is the birth of NA e-sports where "everyone can apply!"
Obviously I wanted to be invited, but I really do not care, you guys knew the in-crowders you were going to pick b4 this thing even started, but i'd still like to be on your "standby list" and seriously...pretty damn disgusting that you accuse me of cheating.
Original Message From Xeris: I don't know who the CEO of uservoice is either, but we investigated fraudulent votes of every player in the first page of the poll, and almost all of yours were found to be fraudulent. Dunno what else to tell you.
Original Message From avilo: Me? I don't know who the hell the CEO of uservoice is, but the only thing I ever did to get votes was post a replay pack, advertise it on stream sometimes, post it in my sig everywhere, and spread the word, as well as my gf helping me with email contacts.
I highly doubt all of my votes were "fraudulent" as I managed to get quite a lot of support. I do know from reading forum posts that a troll put a lot of votes previously into my account, idra's, trumps, etc or whatever to troll the polls, but I never have "hacked" or cheated votes, let alone do i even know how.
Original Message From Xeris: Nobody has anything against you, none of us here have ever dealt with you or know you at all. The CEO of uservoice told me that almost all of your votes were fraudulent, and that they were also almost all made from one account. So, am I believing you or the CEO of uservoice?
Original Message From avilo: That's just pretty damn sickening period man. I don't know what it is you guys have against me, but I 'd still like to be a "standby" since obviously I didn't "qualify" for your invite system this first go round.
Original Message From Xeris: Ah, you were removed from the poll by uservoice. We investigated fraudulent voting and your votes were illegitimate. You used the same account but changed IP's every time, which was pretty funny.
You were actually first on the list of standbys, but given this info from uservoice, we're just totally removing you.
Original Message From avilo:
Original Message From Xeris: no clue, nobody has touched that site in awhile, players already decided anyways, plus voting doesn't matter.
oh, it's a conspiracy though.
Original Message From avilo: just wondering?
Ok, when do we know if we're in or not? And I was just asking for gods sake didn't say anything about a conspiracy
On March 23 2011 04:15 avilo wrote: jesus christ, stop bashing me for no goddamn reason. It's gotten old since the beta, seriously.
Obviously, I won't be in the first 50, they already said that. Why do people think I don't have a right to speak up for myself? Jesus christ even the title of this thread is fucking mocking me. Good stuff yeah?
Here's some original msgs when I was first removed from their dumb polls a month or so ago. ty tyler for being a voice of reason, and obviously i won't be in their first 50 club, but that doesn't mean i want to be taken out of consideration as an alternate or whatever in the future because these people are telling me i cheated their poll.
some lovely PMs where i'm left dumbfounded from weeks ago:
Original Message From Xeris: What I said was that you used the same account for your votes, whether it was you specifically or someone doing it for you, I don't know, I guess there's really no way to tell if it was you or someone trolling you. Either way, almost all of the votes to your name weren't legitimate.
The polling doesn't matter, but someone trying to cheat the system does matter. Stealing a $1 candy bar doesn't make a huge difference, but if I actually did that it would make a difference because stealing is bad. So your analogy that even if you cheated it shouldn't matter because the poll doesn't matter is wrong.
So, whether it was you, or someone randomly deciding to rig the poll to give you 23,000 votes or however many you had -- we can't tell. All we know is that the votes you received were fraudulent. So we can't in good conscience keep you on a list to be considered knowing that you possibly rigged the voting; does that make sense?
Original Message From avilo: How is that my fault when your voting system is public? Any random idiot can troll the voting system.
Accusing me of cheating or hacking a online poll that doesn't matter according to you guys, and would lower my standing in the community... is absolutely ridiculous. Just as ridiculous as you accusing me of cheating for something, that as said...doesn't even matter.
Which on top of that, is even more ridiculous that you deleted when you guys claim the votes don't mean anything.
Sure, no conspiracy, except that you guys keep doing everything you can to keep me out of your tournament which you claim is the birth of NA e-sports where "everyone can apply!"
Obviously I wanted to be invited, but I really do not care, you guys knew the in-crowders you were going to pick b4 this thing even started, but i'd still like to be on your "standby list" and seriously...pretty damn disgusting that you accuse me of cheating.
Original Message From Xeris: I don't know who the CEO of uservoice is either, but we investigated fraudulent votes of every player in the first page of the poll, and almost all of yours were found to be fraudulent. Dunno what else to tell you.
Original Message From avilo: Me? I don't know who the hell the CEO of uservoice is, but the only thing I ever did to get votes was post a replay pack, advertise it on stream sometimes, post it in my sig everywhere, and spread the word, as well as my gf helping me with email contacts.
I highly doubt all of my votes were "fraudulent" as I managed to get quite a lot of support. I do know from reading forum posts that a troll put a lot of votes previously into my account, idra's, trumps, etc or whatever to troll the polls, but I never have "hacked" or cheated votes, let alone do i even know how.
Original Message From Xeris: Nobody has anything against you, none of us here have ever dealt with you or know you at all. The CEO of uservoice told me that almost all of your votes were fraudulent, and that they were also almost all made from one account. So, am I believing you or the CEO of uservoice?
Original Message From avilo: That's just pretty damn sickening period man. I don't know what it is you guys have against me, but I 'd still like to be a "standby" since obviously I didn't "qualify" for your invite system this first go round.
Original Message From Xeris: Ah, you were removed from the poll by uservoice. We investigated fraudulent voting and your votes were illegitimate. You used the same account but changed IP's every time, which was pretty funny.
You were actually first on the list of standbys, but given this info from uservoice, we're just totally removing you.
Original Message From avilo:
Original Message From Xeris: no clue, nobody has touched that site in awhile, players already decided anyways, plus voting doesn't matter.
oh, it's a conspiracy though. [quote]
Ok, when do we know if we're in or not? And I was just asking for gods sake didn't say anything about a conspiracy
It's obvious by how your acting taht you didn't cheat the poll, but you have to also consider that without those votes i dont think you would be on their standby list
Nobody actually cares and apparently only 43 people wanted to see you in the league.
If you play better and make a name for yourself, you could be in the next one. If I was running the NASL I'd be going out of my way at this point to make sure you don't make it into any future NASL events either, even if you deserve it.
On March 23 2011 04:07 Liquid`Tyler wrote: In my opinion, Xeris/NASL should apologize to avilo and NASL absolutely should not penalize him in any way.
Isnt that *exactly* what they're saying in this thread that they're NOT doing (penalizing him)?
They can go ahead and apologize all they want - whether it's justified or not its still a good display of professionalism - but I do not get the penalized thing. At all.
Nope check out these quotes from the OP:
This has less to do with the fact that his votes were illegal than it does the fact that he only has a small number of legitimate votes...
So the fact that there were a lot of illegal votes may have played up to a 49.99% part of the decision. We don't know. We only know that it played a smaller part than the small number of legitimate votes. That's the careful wording that Xeris decided upon and that's what it means. If they want to be more specific about they made the decision, they would have been. Even if it's not close to 51/49, I was talking about absolutes. There should be 0 penalty. It would be easy enough for them to say "The only reason we were considering avilo for the standy list was because of his apparent popularity. He's not actually that popular so we took him off the list." But no, there's this extra component of him being associated against his will with fraudulent voting and now the NASL doesn't want to associate with him.
Since there's no way to tell WHO actually did the votes, it's basically Avilo's word that he didn't versus uservoice's evidence that all his votes were rigged. So, in good conscience it was the decision of the owners of the NASL that he can't be included in a standby list because it might jeapordize our integrity. The reason Avilo was first on our standby list was because of his perceived popularity. Obviously that has now been shown to be false, so we can no longer have him on that list.
Again, the wording is purposely unclear. You can see some reasoning going on here, but you don't quite understand exactly why things were decided the way they are. Again it could have been a simple argument about how they were deceived by the fraudulent voting and now that they know the truth, he's not on the standby list anymore. But they didn't want to keep it simple like that. The word "integrity" has to pop up.
It's ridiculous when they have no evidence at all.
He was turned down because he's not top 50. He was insinuated to be cheating in a pm once, which later his redacted and Xeris changed his language. He was removed from the standby list because the votes weren't real votes, thus any leverage he had to get into the tournament was removed.
Seriously, this is like a bad joke. Xeris had essentially 1 sentence of 1 pm that wasn't "professional", and I actually had to try to hold in my laughter as I typed that. Avilo now drumming up "damning" pm's which show nothing is as equally humorous.
Since there's no way to tell WHO actually did the votes, it's basically Avilo's word that he didn't versus uservoice's evidence that all his votes were rigged.
I don't understand how anyone could think this is a good way to look at it at all.
It's a fact that the votes were rigged. No one is disputing it. The number might be in dispute, but that's not important. It's not in dispute that at least about 18,000 votes were rigged.
Is there any evidence that avilo is responsible for the rigged votes? Absolutely not.
That's all you've got is motive. But then there are alternate explanations, like this whole "let's spell Athene on the front page" thing and haters of avilo who just want to screw with him by giving him fraudulent votes (he has gathered plenty of haters just because of his passionate posts on teamliquid.net). And you've got avilo saying he didn't do it.
Now look up again at what I quoted at the start of this post. It doesn't make sense to say "it's avilo's word against uservoice's evidence that votes were rigged."
That's all you can say is "We've determined that votes were rigged. We've got an accurate vote count now. We'll work from there. We were unable to obtain any leads or evidence that might point us toward the culprit so unfortunately we won't be pursuing it or taking any actions against anyone."
In my opinion, Xeris/NASL should apologize to avilo and NASL absolutely should not penalize him in any way.
Did you read the OP? They are Not taking action against him or penalizing him because they think he rigged the votes or because his votes were rigged, they are removing him from the waitlist because his perceived popularity of 23k turned out to be closer to 43, even if the votes\popularity count marginally(as they should in my opinion, if they did not then we would not see artosis in this league as he has pretty limited amount of SC2 acomplishments. Though I am pretty sure we will see artosis because he is awesome and will win NASL now that he can spend less time casting code A and more time pwning noobs.) , they do count for something.
So they are ignoring the fact that someone trolled the votes, and looking at it as if he has the votes that he actually has, which is 43, and which sadly , putting together all of avilos accomplishments and perceived player skill, is not good enough to be in the NASL or to be the standby player. Are you suggesting that they should keep him as a standby simply because someone trolled his poll?
And there is no way avilo deserves any more of an apology than this thread is after the posts he has made about xeris/NASL etc.
Unless I'm missing something, I don't think he is being 'punished' at all by anyone. All they did was throw out the fraudulent votes and then reevaluated Avilo from there. Obviously his huge number of votes on the site was a main reason he was still being considered so it makes sense that they are no longer considering him for a spot since the reevaluated Avilo with the correct number of votes doesn't come close enough to the requirements the NASL has set up.
On March 23 2011 04:19 Liquid`Tyler wrote: It's ridiculous when they have no evidence at all.
I don't know why this hasn't been mentioned yet, but the fraudulent votes all went through one account, the same one Avilo used to do his own voting. This doesn't automatically make him guilty but it does seem more like Avilo or someone close to him was responsible for the actual fraud votes.
Clealy this is all just a ploy from avilo to get more fans =p.
OT: I'm glad the NASL is at least trying to be open and honest about what's going on, it would have been just as easy for them to ignore it, and no one would have any idea what was happening. Personally I couldn't care less (I've seen avilo play exaclty once and it wasn't super duper impressive), but i'm glad that steps are being taken towards openness.
That said I just can't wait for the announced announcement of announcing the first few players today!
On March 23 2011 04:19 Liquid`Tyler wrote: It's ridiculous when they have no evidence at all.
I don't know why this hasn't been mentioned yet, but the fraudulent votes all went through one account, the same one Avilo used to do his own voting. This doesn't automatically make him guilty but it does seem more like Avilo or someone close to him was responsible for the actual fraud votes.
Where in the world did you get that information? That's not funny if you don't have any proof. Not funny at all!
On March 23 2011 04:20 Xeris wrote: Avilo, I'm sorry my first pm came off as accusatory. I clarified my position. Again, we're not accusing you. I'm really sorry that you feel this way.
You obviously did accuse me, and said that the owners decided to remove me from consideration of being in this tournament and/or the standby list. You told me this via email. And I continually have tried to contact you or the owners to tell you that I never have hacked or cheated these friggin polls, let alone done any of that in my past 10 years of gaming and so you guys started to just ignore me, and dust the issue under the rug. Thanks.
First and foremost. I wish there was a post explaining other motives about "fraudulent" votes as many people don't know the entire "AtheneWins" Conspiracy. If I was reading this without knowledge of other stories, I would take it as you accusing him; just because of your tone. Additionally in your first message you directly accused him, so I can see him being angry.
Your motivation by putting this story out there was wrong as well; just because he is hassling you doesn't give you any rights to slander him and judging from his response you did this without his knowledge. PM's are private messages for a reason, respect that. I'm sure there are more emails and Avilo is taking the moral path by not posting them.
All that being said. You made the right decision fraudulent votes have to be removed; however you are dealing with a global user base which makes detecting proxies even harder then normal as localization is thrown out the window. The correct way to silence him would be giving him what he claimed he should have ~500 votes and an apology for the inconvenience. The voting doesn't matter nor would 500 votes put him anywhere near the top of the poll, so I don't understand why you took this path.
Players and organizers need to respect each other.
I can understand Avilo wanting an apology, which Xeris just did. But I don't see any problem in him being removed from the stand by list when he was on there for his massive amount of votes.
And he is not being barred from the NASL at all, he is still allowed to compete in the open tournament. So stop saying you are barred from the tournament.
Since there's no way to tell WHO actually did the votes, it's basically Avilo's word that he didn't versus uservoice's evidence that all his votes were rigged.
I don't understand how anyone could think this is a good way to look at it at all.
It's a fact that the votes were rigged. No one is disputing it. The number might be in dispute, but that's not important. It's not in dispute that at least about 18,000 votes were rigged.
Is there any evidence that avilo is responsible for the rigged votes? Absolutely not.
That's all you've got is motive. But then there are alternate explanations, like this whole "let's spell Athene on the front page" thing and haters of avilo who just want to screw with him by giving him fraudulent votes (he has gathered plenty of haters just because of his passionate posts on teamliquid.net). And you've got avilo saying he didn't do it.
Now look up again at what I quoted at the start of this post. It doesn't make sense to say "it's avilo's word against uservoice's evidence that votes were rigged."
That's all you can say is "We've determined that votes were rigged. We've got an accurate vote count now. We'll work from there. We were unable to obtain any leads or evidence that might point us toward the culprit so unfortunately we won't be pursuing it or taking any actions against anyone."
In my opinion, Xeris/NASL should apologize to avilo and NASL absolutely should not penalize him in any way.
Did you read the OP? They are Not taking action against him or penalizing him because they think he rigged the votes or because his votes were rigged, they are removing him from the waitlist because his perceived popularity of 23k turned out to be closer to 43, even if the votes\popularity count marginally(as they should in my opinion, if they did not then we would not see artosis in this league as he has pretty limited amount of SC2 acomplishments. Though I am pretty sure we will see artosis because he is awesome and will win NASL now that he can spend less time casting code A and more time pwning noobs.) , they do count for something.
So they are ignoring the fact that someone trolled the votes, and looking at it as if he has the votes that he actually has, which is 43, and which sadly , putting together all of avilos accomplishments and perceived player skill, is not good enough to be in the NASL or to be the standby player. Are you suggesting that they should keep him as a standby simply because someone trolled his poll?
And there is no way avilo deserves any more of an apology than this thread is after the posts he has made about xeris/NASL etc.
No matter what they try to show publicly here, they were indeed saying I cheated the polls, and that I would be removed from consideration of the standby list, or tournament or whatever because I apparently cheated their polls and they cannot trust me because their magical uservoice system tells the truth. ...
I'm really surpised avilo was first on the standby list.. Personally I don't think he deserved to be in the top 50 or the standby list.
But the logical reasoning used by Xeris/NASL is pretty terrible. Xeris said he can either believe avilo or CEO of uservoice, but that's fallacious. The CEO of uservoice doesn't accuse avilo of cheating; he only says that most of avilo's votes are fradulent. Avilo is not implicated in the activity by the CEO, as far as I can tell. Avilo then claims he had nothing to do with it either. So in reality, the two statements are not mutually exclusive, so you don't have to believe only one or the other.
Imo, what should be done is that avilo's fradulent votes should be removed. He should be allowed to remain in the poll with his 43-1500 or however many votes. And he should be removed from standby list because the reason he was on it was the fact that he had so many votes in the poll, according to Xeris. If there was another reason that he made the standby list, then he should stay on it.
It's funny that the flak avilo is getting is from his whiny responses in this thread, not the events that transpired in the OP. But he fails to realize this and continues on with his martyr temper tantrum against the elistist organizers
Since there's no way to tell WHO actually did the votes, it's basically Avilo's word that he didn't versus uservoice's evidence that all his votes were rigged.
I don't understand how anyone could think this is a good way to look at it at all.
It's a fact that the votes were rigged. No one is disputing it. The number might be in dispute, but that's not important. It's not in dispute that at least about 18,000 votes were rigged.
Is there any evidence that avilo is responsible for the rigged votes? Absolutely not.
That's all you've got is motive. But then there are alternate explanations, like this whole "let's spell Athene on the front page" thing and haters of avilo who just want to screw with him by giving him fraudulent votes (he has gathered plenty of haters just because of his passionate posts on teamliquid.net). And you've got avilo saying he didn't do it.
Now look up again at what I quoted at the start of this post. It doesn't make sense to say "it's avilo's word against uservoice's evidence that votes were rigged."
That's all you can say is "We've determined that votes were rigged. We've got an accurate vote count now. We'll work from there. We were unable to obtain any leads or evidence that might point us toward the culprit so unfortunately we won't be pursuing it or taking any actions against anyone."
In my opinion, Xeris/NASL should apologize to avilo and NASL absolutely should not penalize him in any way.
Probably the most intelligent reply in this thread! I personally hope avilo qualifies in the open tournament so that some epic drama occurs in season 2...
this was posted by shana in another thread just thought i'd leave this here
If this is legit, doesn't this mean that every person there has a certain amount of illegitimate votes and that they should also be taken out? The illegitimate votes I mean, not the players.
On March 23 2011 04:20 Xeris wrote: Avilo, I'm sorry my first pm came off as accusatory. I clarified my position. Again, we're not accusing you. I'm really sorry that you feel this way.
You obviously did accuse me, and said that the owners decided to remove me from consideration of being in this tournament and/or the standby list. You told me this via email. And I continually have tried to contact you or the owners to tell you that I never have hacked or cheated these friggin polls, let alone done any of that in my past 10 years of gaming and so you guys started to just ignore me, and dust the issue under the rug. Thanks.
Aww look, Xeris apologized and Avilo is still acting like a child.
On March 23 2011 03:21 Xeris wrote: To clarify. Avilo was on a standby list (not one of the 50 players), in case some people didn't get their deposits on time or dropped out for whatever reason. The entire reason for him being on that list was his position in the poll. Since all his votes were illegal, we removed him from our standby list. This has less to do with the fact that his votes were illegal than it does the fact that he only has a small number of legitimate votes, so the entire reason for him being on our standby list is now null and void.
Once again: we are not accusing him of cheating. There is NO WAY for us to know exactly who gave him 23,000 votes, but they were fraudulent votes.
This is the last thing we will say on the matter, and we believe that our decision was fair and correct.
Yep, that sounds pretty much correct to me. Good job Xeris and NASL stuff. Definitely the right thing to do.
On March 23 2011 04:20 Xeris wrote: Avilo, I'm sorry my first pm came off as accusatory. I clarified my position. Again, we're not accusing you. I'm really sorry that you feel this way.
The way you just worded that apology, sorry that you feel this way is pretty much a slap in the face. It is basically like saying you're not actually sorry at all. Why not just come out with a straight up apology and end this all?
Xeris just posted a public apology in page 8, clarifying the situation, his vote numbers no longer warrant being in the backup list, definitely not the top spot in it, and has thus been removed from contention.
Is there really anything else to say on this matter? Yes some wording could've been done better, but in the long run, it's been taken care of and in a semi-transparent manner.
Did anyone else think after avilo posted the full PM list that it didn't do any convincing to help him? Especially since the specific pm he started it with, is obviously cut off. Posting chunks of chunks doesn't prove anything, it's still taken out of context, if we have the full list of communication from beginning to end, maybe it'd be more possible to use as evidence, but just as avilo stated that Xeris didn't post "all of the convo" as part of his defense, posting part of the convo with just a bit more doesn't make your defense any better either avilo. Sorry man, I'm not a huge fan of you but I do think you were wrongly accused, they retracted, and now have made a public apology to you, there's really not much else to do except practice hard and qualify for next season. I think it'd be for the best if we just dropped this and moved on.
Since there's no way to tell WHO actually did the votes, it's basically Avilo's word that he didn't versus uservoice's evidence that all his votes were rigged.
I don't understand how anyone could think this is a good way to look at it at all.
It's a fact that the votes were rigged. No one is disputing it. The number might be in dispute, but that's not important. It's not in dispute that at least about 18,000 votes were rigged.
Is there any evidence that avilo is responsible for the rigged votes? Absolutely not.
That's all you've got is motive. But then there are alternate explanations, like this whole "let's spell Athene on the front page" thing and haters of avilo who just want to screw with him by giving him fraudulent votes (he has gathered plenty of haters just because of his passionate posts on teamliquid.net). And you've got avilo saying he didn't do it.
Now look up again at what I quoted at the start of this post. It doesn't make sense to say "it's avilo's word against uservoice's evidence that votes were rigged."
That's all you can say is "We've determined that votes were rigged. We've got an accurate vote count now. We'll work from there. We were unable to obtain any leads or evidence that might point us toward the culprit so unfortunately we won't be pursuing it or taking any actions against anyone."
In my opinion, Xeris/NASL should apologize to avilo and NASL absolutely should not penalize him in any way.
Probably the most intelligent reply in this thread! I personally hope avilo qualifies in the open tournament so that some epic drama occurs in season 2...
Except Xeris apologized. avilo is still not being punished, because the standby list is based on popularity, and 43 votes does not a popular person get. And right now avilo is arguing that he's being punished by not being on the standby list.
On March 23 2011 04:20 Xeris wrote: Avilo, I'm sorry my first pm came off as accusatory. I clarified my position. Again, we're not accusing you. I'm really sorry that you feel this way.
The way you just worded that apology, sorry that you feel this way is pretty much a slap in the face. It is basically like saying you're not actually sorry at all. Why not just come out with a straight up apology and end this all?
Give up Xeris, even your apology is criticized. We will wait for the play by play by InControl on SOTG. Let Avilo be a guest so we can hear him whine in person.
On March 23 2011 04:23 Charger wrote: Unless I'm missing something, I don't think he is being 'punished' at all by anyone. All they did was throw out the fraudulent votes and then reevaluated Avilo from there. Obviously his huge number of votes on the site was a main reason he was still being considered so it makes sense that they are no longer considering him for a spot since the reevaluated Avilo with the correct number of votes doesn't come close enough to the requirements the NASL has set up.
Well I think you are missing something. The point is not that Avilo has been removed from the standby list - which is the right decision if it was fraudulent votes alone keeping him there. The point is that NASL's conduct towards Avilo has been totally unprofessional. As somebody who had scarcely heard of Avilo until now, this just reflects really poorly on the organization of NASL.
It seems a lot of people in this thread are happy to just brush aside the insulting comments in the PMs and emails in the context of 'this is the internet, deal with it'. Sorry, but that shit doesn't fly in the real world, and NASL is very much a real world enterprise with a lot of real world money behind.
So im not an avilo fan or anything but the way he has been treated has gone out of control to just some random people throwing dirt on his name (which i believe is what this is all about)
So avilo shouldnt be in the top 50 probably not top 75 and he probably knows this himself
But the whole voting poll system should not have been made in the first place as there can be so so many things going wrong with it
Xeris/NASL cant just accuse avilo of cheating without any proof (and make no mistake thats what they did cant change that now)
Avilo has the right to defend himself and as long as its done privately between NASL or xeris its fine but taking this to TL and the public is another "mockery" as avilo calls it. As now theres a bunch of random people not involved in this in any way are just being rude without any reason at all which is just childlish.
To stop this please close / delete this thread and keep these things privatly as the reasonable people are just loosing respect to the organization of NASL
Who even has time to do this? I mean 20k fraudelent votes by one user? that's a staggering number. I mean I went to the computer lab and voted for myself from every computer once a day for the online auditions for "I Love New York 2". And that left me about 1,500 votes.. and I considered that a huge investment of time.
On March 23 2011 03:43 cangiz wrote: Avilo, this toruney has to be elitist. Look at the prize pool... Stop making stupid arguments and just accept the fact that you had less than 50 votes.
You are a good player, but I dont feel you can compete in this tourney vs the koreans and the top NA/EU players.
And players like incontrol can? :D
I mean i'm sure he will get invited and every1 knows he has 0 achievements in sc2.
Also 43 votes on avilo seems low to me, since i'm sure he already had more then that from people over at gr.org alone.
Perhaps they should just do it fair all together, that basically means only invite Idra from NA and some of the top guys from EU and rest koreans. Then you have the real top 50.
Consistently placing top 16 MLG = top 50 North America. + He like invented standard pvz.
Thanks Tyler Xeris is one of the best organizers in the community, if not THE BEST... but definitely not a PR guy.
NASL needs to step it up with their PR big time, even though it's a good thing you guys "came clean" in posting this, you did it by first removing all of avilo's responses, which inherently puts doubt into the argument and statements you're making. When you come clean you have to include everything, like TSL did with the d/c issue, where they included the mistakes they made and pretty complete disclosure on the panel and parties involved.
At this point any apology just doesn't come off as sincere. Honestly it's a lack of professionalism from both sides. I hope this isn't an indication of the type of drama NASL wants to highlight because I feel like there's already a feeling like this is going to be such an overhyped and underdelivered event.
On March 23 2011 04:20 Xeris wrote: Avilo, I'm sorry my first pm came off as accusatory. I clarified my position. Again, we're not accusing you. I'm really sorry that you feel this way.
The way you just worded that apology, sorry that you feel this way is pretty much a slap in the face. It is basically like saying you're not actually sorry at all. Why not just come out with a straight up apology and end this all?
No, don't put words into Xeris' mouth.
On March 23 2011 03:21 Xeris wrote: To clarify. Avilo was on a standby list (not one of the 50 players), in case some people didn't get their deposits on time or dropped out for whatever reason. The entire reason for him being on that list was his position in the poll. Since all his votes were illegal, we removed him from our standby list. This has less to do with the fact that his votes were illegal than it does the fact that he only has a small number of legitimate votes, so the entire reason for him being on our standby list is now null and void.
If his votes are low, and the backup list are dependant on position, then his removal from that list is just. I don't see where Avilo is banned from the tournament, or how "cheating" is the reason for his removal on the list.
As long as the public stance by Xeris for the NASL backup list is that it is determined by votes, then he did the right thing here (ignoring the drama between Xeris and Avilo.)
Since there's no way to tell WHO actually did the votes, it's basically Avilo's word that he didn't versus uservoice's evidence that all his votes were rigged.
I don't understand how anyone could think this is a good way to look at it at all.
It's a fact that the votes were rigged. No one is disputing it. The number might be in dispute, but that's not important. It's not in dispute that at least about 18,000 votes were rigged.
Is there any evidence that avilo is responsible for the rigged votes? Absolutely not.
That's all you've got is motive. But then there are alternate explanations, like this whole "let's spell Athene on the front page" thing and haters of avilo who just want to screw with him by giving him fraudulent votes (he has gathered plenty of haters just because of his passionate posts on teamliquid.net). And you've got avilo saying he didn't do it.
Now look up again at what I quoted at the start of this post. It doesn't make sense to say "it's avilo's word against uservoice's evidence that votes were rigged."
That's all you can say is "We've determined that votes were rigged. We've got an accurate vote count now. We'll work from there. We were unable to obtain any leads or evidence that might point us toward the culprit so unfortunately we won't be pursuing it or taking any actions against anyone."
In my opinion, Xeris/NASL should apologize to avilo and NASL absolutely should not penalize him in any way.
Probably the most intelligent reply in this thread! I personally hope avilo qualifies in the open tournament so that some epic drama occurs in season 2...
Except Xeris apologized. avilo is still not being punished, because the standby list is based on popularity, and 43 votes does not a popular person get. And right now avilo is arguing that he's being punished by not being on the standby list.
It's amazing how many people are not seeing this very logic.
On March 23 2011 04:19 Liquid`Tyler wrote: It's ridiculous when they have no evidence at all.
I don't know why this hasn't been mentioned yet, but the fraudulent votes all went through one account, the same one Avilo used to do his own voting. This doesn't automatically make him guilty but it does seem more like Avilo or someone close to him was responsible for the actual fraud votes.
Where in the world did you get that information? That's not funny if you don't have any proof. Not funny at all!
Read Xeris' messages.
"What I said was that you used the same account for your votes, whether it was you specifically or someone doing it for you, I don't know, I guess there's really no way to tell if it was you or someone trolling you. Either way, almost all of the votes to your name weren't legitimate. "
On March 23 2011 04:20 Xeris wrote: Avilo, I'm sorry my first pm came off as accusatory. I clarified my position. Again, we're not accusing you. I'm really sorry that you feel this way.
The way you just worded that apology, sorry that you feel this way is pretty much a slap in the face. It is basically like saying you're not actually sorry at all. Why not just come out with a straight up apology and end this all?
Umm, maybe you didn't read the first "sorry". He first apologizes for being accusatory. Then he apologizes for something else, irreconcilable differences, which avilo illlustrated in his previous response.
On March 23 2011 04:24 SilverJohnny wrote: Clealy this is all just a ploy from avilo to get more fans =p.
It's actually just a planned publicity stunt involving the NASL and Avilo to reignite some interest in their league prior to their player announcement (whenever it actually happens); once this thread has generated enough replies and stirred up interest in the issue (which is guaranteed with both parties "argueing" here) they will eventually resolve their issues in an amicable and public fashion and Avilo will be first on the list of back ups regardless.
Since there's no way to tell WHO actually did the votes, it's basically Avilo's word that he didn't versus uservoice's evidence that all his votes were rigged.
I don't understand how anyone could think this is a good way to look at it at all.
It's a fact that the votes were rigged. No one is disputing it. The number might be in dispute, but that's not important. It's not in dispute that at least about 18,000 votes were rigged.
Is there any evidence that avilo is responsible for the rigged votes? Absolutely not.
That's all you've got is motive. But then there are alternate explanations, like this whole "let's spell Athene on the front page" thing and haters of avilo who just want to screw with him by giving him fraudulent votes (he has gathered plenty of haters just because of his passionate posts on teamliquid.net). And you've got avilo saying he didn't do it.
Now look up again at what I quoted at the start of this post. It doesn't make sense to say "it's avilo's word against uservoice's evidence that votes were rigged."
That's all you can say is "We've determined that votes were rigged. We've got an accurate vote count now. We'll work from there. We were unable to obtain any leads or evidence that might point us toward the culprit so unfortunately we won't be pursuing it or taking any actions against anyone."
In my opinion, Xeris/NASL should apologize to avilo and NASL absolutely should not penalize him in any way.
Probably the most intelligent reply in this thread! I personally hope avilo qualifies in the open tournament so that some epic drama occurs in season 2...
Except Xeris apologized. avilo is still not being punished, because the standby list is based on popularity, and 43 votes does not a popular person get. And right now avilo is arguing that he's being punished by not being on the standby list.
It's obvious I had more than 43 votes, but they can say I have however many fucking votes they want, do you realize that? On top of that, the votes do not even matter, so why they were being like this to me in the first place is beyond my comprehension.
I never have cheated or done anything bad in this community, the most i've done is been outspoken about stuff that people don't like talking about, and made posts here and there.
On March 23 2011 04:20 Xeris wrote: Avilo, I'm sorry my first pm came off as accusatory. I clarified my position. Again, we're not accusing you. I'm really sorry that you feel this way.
You obviously did accuse me, and said that the owners decided to remove me from consideration of being in this tournament and/or the standby list. You told me this via email. And I continually have tried to contact you or the owners to tell you that I never have hacked or cheated these friggin polls, let alone done any of that in my past 10 years of gaming and so you guys started to just ignore me, and dust the issue under the rug. Thanks.
Aww look, Xeris apologized and Avilo is still acting like a child.
There's a shocker.
If you have read his post instead of insulting avilo any way you can since the start of this thread you would notice he hasnt accepted Xeris apology, I wouldnt either because he is not apologizing at all, he is just ''sorry'' that it sounded accusatory and ''sorry'' that he feels that way. When you apologize you admit you were wrong, Xeris didnt. While his PMs certainly sound purposefuly insulting.
On March 23 2011 04:20 Xeris wrote: Avilo, I'm sorry my first pm came off as accusatory. I clarified my position. Again, we're not accusing you. I'm really sorry that you feel this way.
On March 23 2011 04:07 Liquid`Tyler wrote: In my opinion, Xeris/NASL should apologize to avilo and NASL absolutely should not penalize him in any way.
Isnt that *exactly* what they're saying in this thread that they're NOT doing (penalizing him)?
They can go ahead and apologize all they want - whether it's justified or not its still a good display of professionalism - but I do not get the penalized thing. At all.
This has less to do with the fact that his votes were illegal than it does the fact that he only has a small number of legitimate votes...
So the fact that there were a lot of illegal votes may have played up to a 49.99% part of the decision. We don't know. We only know that it played a smaller part than the small number of legitimate votes. That's the careful wording that Xeris decided upon and that's what it means. If they want to be more specific about they made the decision, they would have been. Even if it's not close to 51/49, I was talking about absolutes. There should be 0 penalty. It would be easy enough for them to say "The only reason we were considering avilo for the standy list was because of his apparent popularity. He's not actually that popular so we took him off the list." But no, there's this extra component of him being associated against his will with fraudulent voting and now the NASL doesn't want to associate with him.
Since there's no way to tell WHO actually did the votes, it's basically Avilo's word that he didn't versus uservoice's evidence that all his votes were rigged. So, in good conscience it was the decision of the owners of the NASL that he can't be included in a standby list because it might jeapordize our integrity. The reason Avilo was first on our standby list was because of his perceived popularity. Obviously that has now been shown to be false, so we can no longer have him on that list.
Again, the wording is purposely unclear. You can see some reasoning going on here, but you don't quite understand exactly why things were decided the way they are. Again it could have been a simple argument about how they were deceived by the fraudulent voting and now that they know the truth, he's not on the standby list anymore. But they didn't want to keep it simple like that. The word "integrity" has to pop up.
It's ridiculous when they have no evidence at all.
Hohoho, I actually see your point on this one. I honestly think that the OP was just trying to be... fresh in his phrasing? by saying "less to do with x than it has to do with y", but I give you that the wording is too unclear too many times to be a decisive statement that they aren't holding it against him. Which of course is a clear mistake as they have admitted to having nothing to tie avilo to the fake voting.
Since there's no way to tell WHO actually did the votes, it's basically Avilo's word that he didn't versus uservoice's evidence that all his votes were rigged. So, in good conscience it was the decision of the owners of the NASL that he can't be included in a standby list because it might jeapordize our integrity.
conflicts with the very next sentence
The reason Avilo was first on our standby list was because of his perceived popularity. Obviously that has now been shown to be false, so we can no longer have him on that list.
There is no need to say anything about the votes if quote 2 is what matters. So: Can we get a crystal clear statement on whether or not this false-voting business is affecting avilo's present and future in the NASL or not?
On March 23 2011 04:07 Liquid`Tyler wrote: In my opinion, Xeris/NASL should apologize to avilo and NASL absolutely should not penalize him in any way.
Isnt that *exactly* what they're saying in this thread that they're NOT doing (penalizing him)?
They can go ahead and apologize all they want - whether it's justified or not its still a good display of professionalism - but I do not get the penalized thing. At all.
This has less to do with the fact that his votes were illegal than it does the fact that he only has a small number of legitimate votes...
So the fact that there were a lot of illegal votes may have played up to a 49.99% part of the decision. We don't know. We only know that it played a smaller part than the small number of legitimate votes. That's the careful wording that Xeris decided upon and that's what it means. If they want to be more specific about they made the decision, they would have been. Even if it's not close to 51/49, I was talking about absolutes. There should be 0 penalty. It would be easy enough for them to say "The only reason we were considering avilo for the standy list was because of his apparent popularity. He's not actually that popular so we took him off the list." But no, there's this extra component of him being associated against his will with fraudulent voting and now the NASL doesn't want to associate with him.
Since there's no way to tell WHO actually did the votes, it's basically Avilo's word that he didn't versus uservoice's evidence that all his votes were rigged. So, in good conscience it was the decision of the owners of the NASL that he can't be included in a standby list because it might jeapordize our integrity. The reason Avilo was first on our standby list was because of his perceived popularity. Obviously that has now been shown to be false, so we can no longer have him on that list.
Again, the wording is purposely unclear. You can see some reasoning going on here, but you don't quite understand exactly why things were decided the way they are. Again it could have been a simple argument about how they were deceived by the fraudulent voting and now that they know the truth, he's not on the standby list anymore. But they didn't want to keep it simple like that. The word "integrity" has to pop up.
It's ridiculous when they have no evidence at all.
This post makes the most sense in this whole thread. And for the point that Tyler raises that avilo was taken off the standby list for partially a reason that is no fault of his own, and was called the source of that reason in a PM (though later retracted) -- Xeris should apologize for that misstep. Quite simple...
Ironically, the poll on page 8 shows that a vast majority of people don't care either way.
I think the matter is settled now. At least the two things I wanted to hear from Xeris, an apology and clarification that he's not being penalized in any way, have now happened.
On March 23 2011 04:26 avilo wrote: No matter what they try to show publicly here, they were indeed saying I cheated the polls, and that I would be removed from consideration of the standby list, or tournament or whatever because I apparently cheated their polls and they cannot trust me because their magical uservoice system tells the truth. ...
There was ONE PM, even just ONE word , in that PM, sent from ONE guy, that accused you of cheating, and it was taken back LONG before this thread was made, The fact that you even bring it up after they said they are not accusing you is just sad for you and it honestly makes it look like you are trolling, basically trying to act like up to get some bad publicity for NASL because they are not letting you in to the league. .Whether or not you are trolling I don't know. The reason you are removed from the standby list is because after it turned out that you had 43 votes altogether, you no longer had perceived skill, following, or accomplishments to make it into the NASL. Lets assume you only got 43 votes total, do you really think you would still be their standby? If you do so let me tell you the truth, no you would not, and that is the reason why you are no longer their standby.
The most ridiculous part of this entire thread though is probably how you seem to actually think that the NASL has some sort of personal grudge against you or are trying to keep you out of the league or something. The only reason you are at all an issue here is because someone , possibly you, possibly someone else, possibly me, gave you 23k votes.
(PLEASE TAKE NOTE OF THIS, I AM NOT ACCUSING YOU OF TROLLING, I AM JUST SAYING IT LOOKS LIKE IT. Do not start threads or pm wars against me for my horrible nonexisting accusations please.)
On March 23 2011 04:20 Xeris wrote: Avilo, I'm sorry my first pm came off as accusatory. I clarified my position. Again, we're not accusing you. I'm really sorry that you feel this way.
There, hopefully this thread will be closed soon so my head wont explode from reading more avilo posts.
Every time xeris posts I dislike the league a little more. Avilo has a point when he says it's elitist, and to say the prize pool should make it that way is bullshit. I'm curious if incontrol will have to "earn" his way through online qualifiers. Afaik avilo > incontrol in terms of tourney placings (even if online).
On March 23 2011 04:19 Liquid`Tyler wrote: It's ridiculous when they have no evidence at all.
I don't know why this hasn't been mentioned yet, but the fraudulent votes all went through one account, the same one Avilo used to do his own voting. This doesn't automatically make him guilty but it does seem more like Avilo or someone close to him was responsible for the actual fraud votes.
Where in the world did you get that information? That's not funny if you don't have any proof. Not funny at all!
Read Xeris' messages.
"What I said was that you used the same account for your votes, whether it was you specifically or someone doing it for you, I don't know, I guess there's really no way to tell if it was you or someone trolling you. Either way, almost all of the votes to your name weren't legitimate. "
You misread that. He wasn't saying Avilo used the account he used for doing his own voting to do this mass voting. He was clarifying that he had said earlier he had used one account for all the mass voting and he meant that either he had done it or someone else had.
I don't blame you, it's a strangely worded sentence and out of context I'd read it like that too. But it's an important distinction, I think.
Xeris is really trying to cover up this accusation quite well. Unfortunately, not the entire world is blind and can see through this "transparent" post. . Yet another rookie PR mistake. Xeris is trying so hard not to lose power over this situation but come on dude. Just own up to the fact that you did infact accuse him. Its written in the text that YOU provided for christ sake. You continuing to deny the accusation just makes you look worse man.
What would be the scene without drama, eh? Avilo, your just not good enough and in the end that's all that matters. If you don't like it, get better. simple as that.
On March 23 2011 04:26 Ipp wrote: First and foremost. I wish there was a post explaining other motives about "fraudulent" votes as many people don't know the entire "AtheneWins" Conspiracy. If I was reading this without knowledge of other stories, I would take it as you accusing him; just because of your tone. Additionally in your first message you directly accused him, so I can see him being angry.
Your motivation by putting this story out there was wrong as well; just because he is hassling you doesn't give you any rights to slander him and judging from his response you did this without his knowledge. PM's are private messages for a reason, respect that. I'm sure there are more emails and Avilo is taking the moral path by not posting them.
All that being said. You made the right decision fraudulent votes have to be removed; however you are dealing with a global user base which makes detecting proxies even harder then normal as localization is thrown out the window. The correct way to silence him would be giving him what he claimed he should have ~500 votes and an apology for the inconvenience. The voting doesn't matter nor would 500 votes put him anywhere near the top of the poll, so I don't understand why you took this path.
Players and organizers need to respect each other.
It's not NASL that claimed he had 43 votes, it's uservoice that said he only had 43 legitimate votes. If avilo has any issue with that number, he needs to sort it out with hem. What proof does he have for having 500 votes?
As Xeris states, avilo is STILL in the polls. Go look it up yourself, currently at 45 votes. He has only been removed from the standby list, as the only reason he was on the list in the first place was due to his votes.
This is some great transparency. There is still a lot of uncertainty with the NASL, and everyone doesn't know all the final decisions and how exactly things are going to play out yet, so I think these kind of open discussions and quick responses can help with all that.
I hope Xeris and the NASL team keeps this kind of open communication going.
If I were avilo id be freaking pissed too. It is extremely easy to get votes on this. Just by looking at the whole voting system I guarantee he would've had more than 43 too. He isn't the most popular person in the world, but someone could get 43 votes by calling up their family and telling them to vote.
They also didn't state that it was his user that did the 20k votes, they just said it was someone. There could be the best hacker/troll out there who fucking hates avilo that did this. Given from the response of this i wouldn't be surprised if that were the case.
Its not about getting into the NASL, it's about his name, and now it's completely trashed. If he wants to join a tournament in the future, even if he becomes 10x better, everyone will know him for this.
Avilo if you actually didn't do this, im sorry this shit happened to you. It's retarded.....and if you did, well fuck you. lol
On March 23 2011 04:41 Finrod1 wrote: What would be the scene without drama, eh? Avilo, your just not good enough and in the end that's all that matters. If you don't like it, get better. simple as that.
I see the random internet hate bandwagon bashers are out in full force today.
Avilo - You're complaining that they basically accused you of cheating or gaming the system based on pure speculation. Didn't you do that exact same thing in your "NASL: What's the deal?" blog, where you publicly accused the NASL organizers of having an "anti-avilo" agenda before you even spoke to anyone about the problem of your votes being removed?
You said in this thread you knew the votes were illegitimate, but you argued in that blog that they weren't and that:
On February 24 2011 09:00 avilo wrote: There's absolutely nothing wrong with me getting a lot of votes. Why would there be?
It sucks they accused you of cheating with no real evidence, but the way you trudge around with this persecution complex while simultaneously doing the things you complain about makes it really hard to sympathize with you.
On March 23 2011 04:23 Charger wrote: Unless I'm missing something, I don't think he is being 'punished' at all by anyone. All they did was throw out the fraudulent votes and then reevaluated Avilo from there. Obviously his huge number of votes on the site was a main reason he was still being considered so it makes sense that they are no longer considering him for a spot since the reevaluated Avilo with the correct number of votes doesn't come close enough to the requirements the NASL has set up.
Exactly.
Don't see a way how anyone would be unhappy with this decision.
Now go ahead and start announcing the actual players of the NASL, guys! :D
Tyler was right in all his posts NASL should have clarified things better, but on the flip side, It's avilo, who really cares, everybody knew all of his votes were fake and definetely isn't top50 deserving to join the nasl. drama over, everybody back to work
On March 23 2011 04:20 Xeris wrote: Avilo, I'm sorry my first pm came off as accusatory. I clarified my position. Again, we're not accusing you. I'm really sorry that you feel this way.
You obviously did accuse me, and said that the owners decided to remove me from consideration of being in this tournament and/or the standby list. You told me this via email. And I continually have tried to contact you or the owners to tell you that I never have hacked or cheated these friggin polls, let alone done any of that in my past 10 years of gaming and so you guys started to just ignore me, and dust the issue under the rug. Thanks.
Aww look, Xeris apologized and Avilo is still acting like a child.
There's a shocker.
If you have read his post instead of insulting avilo any way you can since the start of this thread you would notice he hasnt accepted Xeris apology, I wouldnt either because he is not apologizing at all, he is just ''sorry'' that it sounded accusatory and ''sorry'' that he feels that way. When you apologize you admit you were wrong, Xeris didnt. While his PMs certainly sound purposefuly insulting.
On March 23 2011 04:20 Xeris wrote: Avilo, I'm sorry my first pm came off as accusatory. I clarified my position. Again, we're not accusing you. I'm really sorry that you feel this way.
lol? He's not accepting Xeris' apology because he's a bitter individual whose only driving force now is to insult the NASL as long as possible. Xeris' admitted he was wrong by the fact that he changed his wording in every PM after the one where the accusation was made. He didn't continue to accuse Avilo of cheating the system beyond that one time, which very well could have just been poor word choice, after that he clearly made a very overt attempt at avoiding that.
On March 23 2011 04:41 Finrod1 wrote: What would be the scene without drama, eh? Avilo, your just not good enough and in the end that's all that matters. If you don't like it, get better. simple as that.
I see the random internet hate bandwagon bashers are out in full force today.
Hey Avilo, just ignore those trolls I would be upset in your position as well and it seems there isn't much you can do but just to let it go. Though I would like to see sincere apology from Xeris
On March 23 2011 04:39 RaFeStaR wrote: Afaik avilo > incontrol in terms of tourney placings (even if online).
Yet a much, much larger following.
That shouldn't matter at all. This isn't a fucking popularity contest, it's a tourney where WE, the fans, should get the best games possible.
Is Avilo > Incontrol in tourney placings? That would surprise me if true I know not offline because Incontrol is top 16 in MLG rankings and pretty sure Avilo's not.
Also alot of fans want incontrol in, he's got a lot of fans (as well as haters unfortunately). So in a sense it is a popularity contest, they want good players who have a good fanbase as fans are what brings alot of viewers.
So I expect to see some questionable players get in due to their popularity more so then skill but I think overall most of the players that get in will be good.
Can't wait for player announcements to start and sucks this "voting" thing had to happen I didn't think it was going to be used really at all but turns out it is which kind of surprises me
On March 23 2011 04:39 RaFeStaR wrote: Afaik avilo > incontrol in terms of tourney placings (even if online).
Yet a much, much larger following.
That shouldn't matter at all. This isn't a fucking popularity contest, it's a tourney where WE, the fans, should get the best games possible.
But what is the best game every played if no one wants to watch it?
So you'd rather watch incontrol lose a one sided game rather than someone else (avilo) play a solid game simply because avilo's jokes aren't as funny as incontrols? I love incontrol, but the elitism in this league is simply retarded.
Since there's no way to tell WHO actually did the votes, it's basically Avilo's word that he didn't versus uservoice's evidence that all his votes were rigged.
I don't understand how anyone could think this is a good way to look at it at all.
It's a fact that the votes were rigged. No one is disputing it. The number might be in dispute, but that's not important. It's not in dispute that at least about 18,000 votes were rigged.
Is there any evidence that avilo is responsible for the rigged votes? Absolutely not.
That's all you've got is motive. But then there are alternate explanations, like this whole "let's spell Athene on the front page" thing and haters of avilo who just want to screw with him by giving him fraudulent votes (he has gathered plenty of haters just because of his passionate posts on teamliquid.net). And you've got avilo saying he didn't do it.
Now look up again at what I quoted at the start of this post. It doesn't make sense to say "it's avilo's word against uservoice's evidence that votes were rigged."
That's all you can say is "We've determined that votes were rigged. We've got an accurate vote count now. We'll work from there. We were unable to obtain any leads or evidence that might point us toward the culprit so unfortunately we won't be pursuing it or taking any actions against anyone."
In my opinion, Xeris/NASL should apologize to avilo and NASL absolutely should not penalize him in any way.
I couldn't have said better. Good luck avilo. Hopefully your name won't be too tarnished.
Its not about getting into the NASL, it's about his name, and now it's completely trashed. If he wants to join a tournament in the future, even if he becomes 10x better, everyone will know him for this.
Avilo if you actually didn't do this, im sorry this shit happened to you. It's retarded.....and if you did, well fuck you. lol
It's not the NASL that's trashing his name, it's himself and his responses. No one calling him out is doing so over the voting stuff, only for what he's doing in this thread
On March 23 2011 04:39 RaFeStaR wrote: Afaik avilo > incontrol in terms of tourney placings (even if online).
Yet a much, much larger following.
That shouldn't matter at all. This isn't a fucking popularity contest, it's a tourney where WE, the fans, should get the best games possible.
But what is the best game every played if no one wants to watch it?
So you'd rather watch incontrol lose a one sided game rather than someone else (avilo) play a solid game simply because avilo's jokes aren't as funny as incontrols? I love incontrol, but the elitism in this league is simply retarded.
I kind of agree that there does seem to be favoritism towards known players. But at the same time this league is a chance to make sc more popular in north america and there really is something to be said for watching people you know. I'm torn.
This whole elitist tournament is only right. I have never heard of Avilo (and I follow the scene pretty good). And just from the application videos in the NASL App. VOD thread I can easily name 50 bigger names all of whom Im more excited to see. Although this is ofcourse a personal preference.
Anyways, Xeris gave Avilo a public apology. Wtf more do you want?
On March 23 2011 04:41 Finrod1 wrote: What would be the scene without drama, eh? Avilo, your just not good enough and in the end that's all that matters. If you don't like it, get better. simple as that.
I see the random internet hate bandwagon bashers are out in full force today.
Why do you think the hate is random? You are being completely respect-less towards xeris even after he retracted what he first said, apologized publicly(which you did not at all deserve) made it clear that you are not at all getting punished for someone trolling your votes. I am pretty sure if this had happened to any other player there would be no hate, because there would be nothing to hate, because they would not make a big deal out of this throwing tantrums and in general just acting like you are losing out on some sort of god given right to be in the NASL, or that Xeris has somehow tainted your family name for generations to come. The posts and attitude you have shown in this thread alone has tainted your reputation 10 times more than Xeris ever could with any bucket full of accusations.
I think that it's funny that Avilo is trying so hard to get into the NASL and is denying all of these claims and acting offended even though (in my opinion) he still is the one who cheated to get himself all of the votes.
Who cares about Avilo enough to award him votes he doesn't deserve? I sincerely doubt that he doesn't have a single fan that is that passionate about him considering I've only heard about him from his own efforts to promote himself and when he's bmed players that play him on their streams.
On March 23 2011 04:36 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I think the matter is settled now. At least the two things I wanted to hear from Xeris, an apology and clarification that he's not being penalized in any way, have now happened.
Not to be to much of a suckup, but always love your logical approach to threads like this.
A bit of a silly situation to come up and a shame it went like this. Hope NASL will do well though and wish Avilo the best in the open tournament/standby.
Why is anyone under the impression that Avilo was penalized for having fraudulent votes? He was on a standby list (not one of the 50 players) because of his massive popularity in the polls. The fraudulent votes were removed. Now he is off that standby list because the votes weren't legitimate.
The only beef anyone should have with the NASL in this matter is the initial accusation that avilo was in fact the person responsible for the trolling of the polls. He's owed an apology MAYBE but no penalty was enforced on him....
On March 23 2011 04:20 Xeris wrote: Avilo, I'm sorry my first pm came off as accusatory. I clarified my position. Again, we're not accusing you. I'm really sorry that you feel this way.
You obviously did accuse me, and said that the owners decided to remove me from consideration of being in this tournament and/or the standby list. You told me this via email. And I continually have tried to contact you or the owners to tell you that I never have hacked or cheated these friggin polls, let alone done any of that in my past 10 years of gaming and so you guys started to just ignore me, and dust the issue under the rug. Thanks.
You should probably accept the apology at this point. Xeris made a mistake in judging you it's true, but it's also a understandable one; you had a lot (20K?) fraudulent votes. If you ran a poll and found someone had that many false votes, you would likely too make the hasty (but incorrect) assumption that they cheated. Xeris made the same initial but incorrect error in judgment, and has now apologized for it.
On March 23 2011 04:39 RaFeStaR wrote: Every time xeris posts I dislike the league a little more. Avilo has a point when he says it's elitist, and to say the prize pool should make it that way is bullshit. I'm curious if incontrol will have to "earn" his way through online qualifiers. Afaik avilo > incontrol in terms of tourney placings (even if online).
I agree with this post 100%. So power hungry and elitist. Like post your NASL application video, why should you be in the league blah blah those videos are all awkward. Fan voting (that doesn't count? or does it?) and digital video application/intervies.. it just seems like a popularity contest where the people in control... are just eating it up. Getting sooo old.
On March 23 2011 04:39 RaFeStaR wrote: Afaik avilo > incontrol in terms of tourney placings (even if online).
Yet a much, much larger following.
That shouldn't matter at all. This isn't a fucking popularity contest, it's a tourney where WE, the fans, should get the best games possible.
But what is the best game every played if no one wants to watch it?
So you'd rather watch incontrol lose a one sided game rather than someone else (avilo) play a solid game simply because avilo's jokes aren't as funny as incontrols? I love incontrol, but the elitism in this league is simply retarded.
You claiming that Avilo is better than iNcontroL is funny.
This whole thing is getting blown out of proportion. Xeris apologized for his poor wording, and Avilo is not in anyway getting punished in an unjust way. They removed the fraudulent votes and that was it.
Avilo going on a slandering spree and trying to martyr himself for whatever 'cause' he is currently taking up is doing nothing but making people dislike him more. If he wants to get into the NASL he can play in the Open Tournament like everyone else who is not being invited.
As far as being elitist? Of course it is. It's an invite tournament, where only the best of the best will be invited to play. The poll is nothing but a popularity contest and has little to no bearing on the invites. To claim that he got screwed out of a slot in the NASL is stretching the truth way too far.
This matter is pretty much done, and Avilo is only making himself look worse by dragging it out.
On March 23 2011 04:44 BroOd wrote: Avilo - You're complaining that they basically accused you of cheating or gaming the system based on pure speculation. Didn't you do that exact same thing in your "NASL: What's the deal?" blog, where you publicly accused the NASL organizers of having an "anti-avilo" agenda before you even spoke to anyone about the problem of your votes being removed?
You said in this thread you knew the votes were illegitimate, but you argued in that blog that they weren't and that:
On February 24 2011 09:00 avilo wrote: There's absolutely nothing wrong with me getting a lot of votes. Why would there be?
It sucks they accused you of cheating with no real evidence, but the way you trudge around with this persecution complex while simultaneously doing the things you complain about makes it really hard to sympathize with you.
Hey, when i'm getting mocking PMs and such that they "misclicked my entry and deleted it -oops" stuff like that...even look at the title of this thread...they even have to randomly mock me with the title. What have I ever done to them personally? Nothing.
And yes, there is nothing wrong with me getting votes. Lots of people voted. We all know I didn't have 23,000, but I certainly had more than "43" but it doesn't matter, they can put it at whatever number they want, and in the end that doesn't even matter too.
I'm not trudging around with a persecution complex. These guys have continously mocked me via PM/email subtly, and even this thread title is a subtle mock which I guess is very professional of them. And apologies are real easy to come by when you need to save face.
On March 23 2011 04:44 BroOd wrote: Avilo - You're complaining that they basically accused you of cheating or gaming the system based on pure speculation. Didn't you do that exact same thing in your "NASL: What's the deal?" blog, where you publicly accused the NASL organizers of having an "anti-avilo" agenda before you even spoke to anyone about the problem of your votes being removed?
You said in this thread you knew the votes were illegitimate, but you argued in that blog that they weren't and that:
On February 24 2011 09:00 avilo wrote: There's absolutely nothing wrong with me getting a lot of votes. Why would there be?
It sucks they accused you of cheating with no real evidence, but the way you trudge around with this persecution complex while simultaneously doing the things you complain about makes it really hard to sympathize with you.
Hey, when i'm getting mocking PMs and such that they "misclicked my entry and deleted it -oops" stuff like that...even look at the title of this thread...they even have to randomly mock me with the title. What have I ever done to them personally? Nothing.
And yes, there is nothing wrong with me getting votes. Lots of people voted. We all know I didn't have 23,000, but I certainly had more than "43" but it doesn't matter, they can put it at whatever number they want, and in the end that doesn't even matter too.
I'm not trudging around with a persecution complex. These guys have continously mocked me via PM/email subtly, and even this thread title is a subtle mock which I guess is very professional of them. And apologies are real easy to come by when you need to save face.
So far I don't see one shred of proof you have more then 43 votes.......
On March 23 2011 04:50 SpaceJam wrote: I think that it's funny that Avilo is trying so hard to get into the NASL and is denying all of these claims and acting offended even though (in my opinion) he still is the one who cheated to get himself all of the votes.
Who cares about Avilo enough to award him votes he doesn't deserve? I sincerely doubt that he doesn't have a single fan that is that passionate about him considering I've only heard about him from his own efforts to promote himself and when he's bmed players that play him on their streams.
You've gotta be kidding me. Your type of logic is exactly why this bullshit needed to come out. I'm not a goddamn cheater, in ANYTHING. Nor have I ever had a history of cheating in ANYTHING.
I had one vote in for avilo, but for some reason it was on his name with like 9 votes. So I just changed my votes to give him 3 votes and now he has 48 votes on one name and 9 votes on another.
I think NASL screwed the pooch on this one. Very bad wording on the one PM and very BM to post PM's.
I really want NASL to be successful, but they seem destined to continually have bad PR and bad communication skills.
Since there's no way to tell WHO actually did the votes, it's basically Avilo's word that he didn't versus uservoice's evidence that all his votes were rigged.
I don't understand how anyone could think this is a good way to look at it at all.
It's a fact that the votes were rigged. No one is disputing it. The number might be in dispute, but that's not important. It's not in dispute that at least about 18,000 votes were rigged.
Is there any evidence that avilo is responsible for the rigged votes? Absolutely not.
That's all you've got is motive. But then there are alternate explanations, like this whole "let's spell Athene on the front page" thing and haters of avilo who just want to screw with him by giving him fraudulent votes (he has gathered plenty of haters just because of his passionate posts on teamliquid.net). And you've got avilo saying he didn't do it.
Now look up again at what I quoted at the start of this post. It doesn't make sense to say "it's avilo's word against uservoice's evidence that votes were rigged."
That's all you can say is "We've determined that votes were rigged. We've got an accurate vote count now. We'll work from there. We were unable to obtain any leads or evidence that might point us toward the culprit so unfortunately we won't be pursuing it or taking any actions against anyone."
In my opinion, Xeris/NASL should apologize to avilo and NASL absolutely should not penalize him in any way.
EPT
What about Athene? Is he going to make it into the NASL? 
). Do you actually believe you are one of them ? ....![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jYNwd.png)
